What importance does "perfection" have in .......

[Hachiro]

daily life to you?

Since I have been living here in Japan I have often come across the word "perfection" or kanpeki 完璧(P); 完ぺき; 完壁(iK) 【かんぺき(P); かんべき(完壁)(ik)】 (adj-na) perfect; complete; flawless, being used by Japanese people. I hear it often in school, from teachers to students, from parents to children, in the work place, among others.

How important or what importance do you place on being "perfect" in what you do? Is attempting to be perfect or flawless an admirable trait or if that drive or desire to be perfect comes at the cost of loosing friends and family relationships worth the effort at attaining?

Many Japanese people that I know are many times unwilling to make a mistake, in many things, but particularly when attemting to speak a foreign language. I tell my students often;

"School is the place to make mistakes. If all of you were "perfect" there would be no reason for any of us teachers to be here to teach you. Making mistakes is a part of learning and growing up. There is no shame or embarassment in not making a mistake or not knowing the answer. Trying your best, whether right or wrong, participating and learning from what your mistakes are helps you to grow as a person."

Children from a young age here have learned that by staying quiet they can avoid making mistakes. It isn't just kids either, adults here I have seen actually tell lies, to cover themselves as not to be seen as anything less than perfect.

Is perfection something that you think is attainable? Is perfection a myth? Is perfection something that you strive for? Do you think that Japanese value perfection as a cultural trait of Japan?

Is perfection or the attempt to be perfect mostly a Japanese trait or do you see those traits in people from other cultures as well.

Personally I can never be perfect, I have given up trying as well. My only goals are to do the best that I can at what ever I do, and if that makes be less than perfect, I am fine with that too. That is all I ever ask of my kids or students as well, just do you best, try as hard as you can in what ever you do and don't be afraid to be less than perfect or afraid to make mistakes. Making mistakes and how you learn from them make you stronger.

 

[leonmarino]

I voted "I try, but realize it is unatainable".

I was raised to do my best whatever I did, and I often concentrate on the mistakes that I made instead of the whole result of what I had accomplished. Many people call me a "perfectionist", and many friends know me as a sore loser.

I have come to the realisation though that instead of pondering over and over again how I could have made that one little mistake it is healthier to try and learn from it and move on.

The Japanese indeed seem to be a perfectionistic folk. An example is how tidy and hygiene conscious many are, or how rules of engagement and politeness are lived up to. Making mistakes too often means losing face, and that's what many try to avoid..

I find it very good of you, Hachiro, that you tell your students that making mistakes is just a part of the learning process. Many Japanese don't even try and learn English because their "brains are wired differently" and they're afraid to make mistakes, or accomplish a not-prefect result. Making people feel at ease relaxes the mind and make learning more fun and easy.

A very bad side of perfectionism is procrastination, avoiding (new) tasks, and I believe that it contributes to conservative thinking of many Japanese. (Why try something new if I have mastered the old way?) In anyway, not good at all.

 

[Maciamo]

Perfection is only an illusion and is unattainable. However we use it, "perfection" is about "about something". There isn't just "perfection" but "perfect something" (e.g. perfect beauty, perfect work...).

However, in daily language many people use the word "perfection" for "continous improvement toward perfection" (e.g. at work) or "the best known" (e.g. the most beautiful women one has seen, as opposed to "absolute perfection in beauty") or even in the meaning of "completely satisfying" (i.e. something that doesn't need more improvement for one's needs, even if it is always possible to do better).

I voted "yes" because I often try to improve what I am doing to reach "relative perfection" (try hard to reach my objectives as perfectly as possible).

 

[Hachiro]

Perfection is only an illusion and is unattainable. However we use it, "perfection" is about "about something". There isn't just "perfection" but "perfect something" (e.g. perfect beauty, perfect work...).

However, in daily language many people use the word "perfection" for "continous improvement toward perfection" (e.g. at work) or "the best known" (e.g. the most beautiful women one has seen, as opposed to "absolute perfection in beauty") or even in the meaning of "completely satisfying" (i.e. something that doesn't need more improvement for one's needs, even if it is always possible to do better).

I agree with you 100% on that.

However I often hear people, mostly foreigners when they talk about Japanese people, often use the word perfection to describe their impressions of the Japanese people and their culture.

 

[Kinsao]

I've said it many times before, but - what an interesting thread.

I agree with Maciamo's point about 'perfection' being 'about something', or referring to the 'best known'... that's a good point. ^^

How important or what importance do you place on being "perfect" in what you do?

Speaking personally, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. This depends on the situation, though. If I don't consider something to be important, I won't waste my energy getting all hot under the collar about doing it perfectly (an example being my job; it brings in the cash but it's singularly unimportant in the grand scheme of things, it's not like I'm a brain surgeon). If I do consider something to be important, I am very much of a perfectionist.

Is attempting to be perfect or flawless an admirable trait or if that drive or desire to be perfect comes at the cost of loosing friends and family relationships worth the effort at attaining?

IMO, it can be an admirable trait, driving people to achieve great things ^^ but sometimes the 'game is not worth the candle', as they say. For most things in life I would consider my friends and family to be most important, and I hope I can keep a suitable sense of perspective and get my priorities right, rather than letting perfectionism run away with me! ... However, someone who doesn't have many friends or family might feel very different about this. I can only say that I think perfectionism stops being 'worth the effort' when it makes you lose sight of what your most important goals are and get tangled up trying to do less important things 'perfectly'.

Is perfection something that you think is attainable?

No.

Is perfection a myth?

I'm inclined to agree with Mac that it can only be thought of as 'the best that we can conceive of' or something like that. If there is an objective 'template' of perfection in anything it would undoubtedly be something that we probably couldn't imagine, since our brains are limited by what we know of, so in that sense perfection probably is a myth.

Is perfection something that you strive for?

It sounds really stupid to say that I 'strive for perfection' when I have just said that I don't think it's attainable. But I think it is fair to say that I 'strive for perfection' in certain things in the sense of trying to be 'as good as I possibly can be' at something.

I suppose if people didn't have this drive, then we would never bother to improve at anything.

Do you think that Japanese value perfection as a cultural trait of Japan?
Is perfection or the attempt to be perfect mostly a Japanese trait or do you see those traits in people from other cultures as well.

I'm not able to say about Japan I can only say that it seems to be a personal characteristic, of people from various cultures, although it may well be stronger in Japan due to social conditioning.

just do you best, try as hard as you can in what ever you do and don't be afraid to be less than perfect or afraid to make mistakes. Making mistakes and how you learn from them make you stronger.

Hear hear!

 

[Hachiro]

Is the "drive" or "strive" for perfection mainly a Japanese cultural trait?

Do other cultures also have this as well? For example I notice that here on JRef we have many members posting from Europe. In Europe is "perfection" viewed as an admirable trait in a person?

I agree with both you and Maciamo on this point.

I also feel that "perfection" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Kinsao]

In Europe is "perfection" viewed as an admirable trait in a person?

Well, I'm not sure about all European countries, because they can be quite different in culture and my view is limited.
In general I think that it is viewed as admirable to a certain extent, but it depends on to what degree someone is a 'perfectionist'. For example, if they tend to get hung up on the 'perfection' of rather little things, generally there will be quite a few people thinking to themselves (and perhaps saying aloud!) 'Just lighten up!' ...

... which of course all depends on people's various perceptions of what is important. It's generally considered admirable to be a perfectionist in your field of work when it is something noticeably 'useful' - like a surgeon, counsellor, accountant... but if you have quite a... how to say it? ... boring job, if you are seen to consider your work as overly important it's often thought that you have no life.

In short, I think it's admired as long as it's perceived to be 'healthy', and helping you progress to better skills/standards, but not admired if it's seen as being detrimental to your physical or mental heath or to your social relations with others, or makes you difficult for other people to relate to.

Perfectionism also tends to be admired in 'stand-out' figures like sportspeople, musicians and artists - perhaps because their lives are seen as being somewhat 'outside of the norm' already...? :?

In general, I think people feel 'it is good, but not too much!'

I don't know how other Europeans feel about this...? :?

 

[misa.j]

I didn't even realize that "perfection" to be one of Japanese traits. I know I'm not. My husband, American, is much more perfectionist than I am.

I see what you mean by them unwilling to make mistakes, but I think it rather comes from them not being able to take the humiliation than being a perfectionist.

 

[RockLee]

I think it's a waste of time, life is not just about doing everything perfect. Flaws and imperfection are a part of life too.

A lot of Japanese people work their entire life trying to do everything perfectly. A result is the huge rate in suicides.

Come on! If everybody and everything would be perfect, the world would suck !

 

[Genecks]

Everything is already perfect. Qualitative statements in a quantitative world will value to little or nothing. Then again, that's my qualitative assumption.

 

[Kinsao]

I didn't even realize that "perfection" to be one of Japanese traits. I know I'm not. My husband, American, is much more perfectionist than I am.

That's interesting. I do think that 'being a perfectionist' is a bit of a stereotype held about Japanese people (not to say that there wouldn't be an element of truth in it, as Hachiro is obviously wondering ^^).

I see what you mean by them unwilling to make mistakes, but I think it rather comes from them not being able to take the humiliation than being a perfectionist.

Aha! It is interesting to consider, the difference between being a perfectionist because it is in your nature, and you feel a personal drive, and being a perfectionist because you feel that others demand/expect it of you.

I think it's a waste of time, life is not just about doing everything perfect. Flaws and imperfection are a part of life too.

That's quite a typical European attitude too :joyful: I think there needs to be a healthy balance of people who are perfectionists and people like you around to tell them to lighten up! and point out what you've just pointed out. Every perfectionist should have a non-perfectionist good friend...

Everything is already perfect.

Cool! Now I just have to remind my boss...

 

[RockLee]

Well, by what I said I mean that perfection cannot exist. You can always improve something, but it never will be "perfect".

 

[MajideSaiaku]

I find "perfection" or at least the drive to acheive the un-acheivable a flaw in itself.
There is no such thing as perfection, merely varying degrees of efficiency and optimal state of existance/performance.
Just as the human mind can emagine a person flying through the universe within a few seconds and seeing everything, this not actually being realistically possible, so perfection is in the same vein.
Its a purely human mental invention which cannot exist outside the minds emagination.
That is how I perceive "perfection" anyway.

 

[misa.j]

It is interesting to consider, the difference between being a perfectionist because it is in your nature, and you feel a personal drive, and being a perfectionist because you feel that others demand/expect it of you.

Exactly. It depends on how the words in Hachiro's first post are used, but especially in those situations he listed, there seems to be an outside pressure rather than them wanting to do precise and flawless job.

Also they often casually use the word "Kanpeki!"(perfect!) when they reassure themselves for what they worked hard for.

 

[Flashjeff]

Well, I don't worry about perfection since, in my mind, it's an unobtainable fantasy. Since human beings are inherently flawed in one way or another, the goal of achieving perfection is an unrealistic one. I for one strive to do the very best I can, each and every day, and if I fair at that modest goal, I don't beat myself up over it, I learn from whatever mistakes I made and try again tomorrow. That's all any of us can do in our lives, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Timey]

"no one's perfect"
sounds familiar ?

yet i think
everyone's perfect already in their own way, in their own roles in life.
that's why we're here.
we're living, we're surviving, we got love, we got hate etc.
couldn't ask for more.
that's what i call 'perfect'

yeah...i know it sounds absurd.
it's just me, i think.

 

[El P8s]

I measure my own worth by the amount of what I have achieved and how much it cost me to achieve it.

Let's face it it's a very nice idea to think ,that everyone is great in his own little way but lets face it the way ,that society judges (at least in west leaning countries) by the amount we can contribute to it and the thing ,that is most honored is money and status.To say it in a polite tone beeing nice in your own way usually wont get you far if the market we call society hasn't any demand for it.
I am not saying that to be a certain way is better than to be something else but , how much you are apprechiated by society just follows the rules of supply and demand. =)

 

[gaijinalways]

Everyone contributes something, but as posted earlier, some contributions are valued more highly than others by society (and even this can vary from country to country), whether these things have a 'necessary' value or not (interesting comment from Winowa Ryder that celebs are sickenly overpaid for living a charmed life, yet people forget that these celebs have 'normal' problems too).

As an educator, Ilike to think that we all can keep learning, and in that sense keep improving. As to what perfection is, it really is in the eye of the beholder.

Sometimes just enjoying the moment is enough, that can be immensely satisfying.

 

[Kinsao]

I think it's important to know when to keep striving and when to be satisfied...

Like if you are making some art work, you can't be satisfied until you have attained something ... it's not 'perfection' as such, because you can't make a 'perfect' art work that is more perfect than anything else, but rather, perfection for itself ... like that work is complete in the way it should be ... because each work is different and with really great works you can't say that one is 'better' than another but that they are each as good as they can possibly be in their own different ways. And that's what every artist looks for in their work even if the work is not 'great' but only something like a 'small work' ... that it's attained it's own perfection (rather than trying to make 'the best in the whole world') ... if you see what I mean.

But then, there is the time, as you have said, to be satisfied in the moment.

I hate being too much perfectionist sometimes like if I'm playing a piece on the guitar, I can't leave practice until I've played the whole thing without making a mistake ... it's a real pain in the butt >_< ... like a compulsion, almost. Of course, that doesn't stop me from making mistakes! (I wish it did! >_<) but even if I have to slow something right down I can't stop until I've played it note-perfect. :angryfire:

 

[Tollen]

erm where the "i'm already perfect" button... couldn't see it? XD
hehe seriously though perfection changes with perception... and even then it's a dellusion... if you see perfection you're actually just failing to notice the flaws...
shame on you ^_^