What are japanese people intrested in foreigners, in my case.

[pipokun]

A: See you soon.
B: See you soon? How soon?? What time??? Where???? How????? Why??????

Just a small talk.

 

[taehyun]

Incidentally, I understand your point, and even agree to a large extent. I guess I just don't get bothered by it much. Also, I noticed that I used to get asked that a lot more when I had only been here for a short time. Now I rarely get asked when I'm leaving, although as aluded to before, I do get asked how often I return to America.

Same here.Only my colleagues already know I don't visit home much for personal reasons.Probably the position of a student(short term or a full term) gives information to the others how long this student is supposed to stay.But except as people who have come to study something, especially short term students are kind of guests,and at least in my country we don't usualy ask our guests when they are leaving.If one works or stays as full term student, then things are different, at least I think so, s/he have to integrate as much as possible, because s/he is already a part of a steady social group.

 

[Mrjones]

A: See you soon.
B: See you soon? How soon?? What time??? Where???? How????? Why??????
Just a small talk.

not quite sure how great small talk is to ask Itsu kairumasku at first ? after that stop communicating.

 

[Nall-ohki]

not quite sure how great small talk is to ask Itsu kairumasku at first ? after that stop communicating.

Well, for one: the question seems to make you really angry.

I know I wouldn't be inclined to talk to anyone who got angry suddenly, and for no good reason I could see, the first time I met them.

 

[gaijinalways]

I kind of see mrjones's and Nall-olki's points. Japanese do seem poorly equipped for dealing with non-Japanese, yet some travel quite a bit, so it seems surprising how persistently bad they are.

On the same theme, I had this conversation during a lesson with an intermediate student who is a dermatologist.

Me Oh, this summer weather is so hot, isn't it?

D Yes it is.

Me I'm so glad my wife and I can go away, we often like to get away for much of the summer because it's so humid and hot. It's unbearable!

D Oh, then you should go back to your country.

Me What? Why should I do that?

D If you dislike summers here you should go home!

Me So, you mean my wife who is Japanese should leave Japan? And all of the Japanese I know that also dislike the summers here should leave their home country?

D......Uh, uh?!!

Yes, I know, I'm harsh, but sometimes people here don't think enough about what would be considered polite. Imagine my student having this conversation at an international conference (one of the main reasons she is studying English)?!


Side note This doctor knows that I also have skin problems in the summer often here in Japan as the humidity is so high compared to where I grew up.

Yet I had another Japanese doctor (Oscar from Young Dudes' guide to Japan) tell me, " Oh, usually in Japan we agree about the weather only" (conveniently forgetting this was a conversation during an English lesson) And another poster told me I shouldn't complain about being able to go away. I replied that my parents go to Florida every winter because they don't like the cold anymore. No one (I know) thinks it's odd.

So sometimes it is thinking how things are different in another country, but also it comes down to seeing people who often don't think when they deal with 'outsiders'.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Maybe I've become too acclimated to life here in Japan, but I thought it was a valid suggestion, especially after hearing the background information.

 

[undrentide]

Me Oh, this summer weather is so hot, isn't it?

D Yes it is.

Me I'm so glad my wife and I can go away, we often like to get away for much of the summer because it's so humid and hot. It's unbearable!

D Oh, then you should go back to your country.

Me What? Why should I do that?

D If you dislike summers here you should go home!

Me So, you mean my wife who is Japanese should leave Japan? And all of the Japanese I know that also dislike the summers here should leave their home country?

D......Uh, uh?!!

I don't know what kind of tone was used when you complain about the hot and humid summer where you're living and the personality of the docter, so this is just something I felt from reading the above.
The doctor seems either
1. to have took personal offence when you described the local weather "unbearable", and took the "this is where I was born and bred, I like this place even it has flaws, so if you don't like it, please don't stay here and insult my hometown" stance,
or
2. to have made the suggestion (go back to your country) which she thinks is the simplest solution, feeling that you really hate the climate and guessed (maybe incorrectly) that maybe you don't think it is worthwhile to live in such an awful place.

I don't think either is a nice reaction, but they are possible background.

Yet I had another Japanese doctor (Oscar from Young Dudes' guide to Japan) tell me, " Oh, usually in Japan we agree about the weather only" (conveniently forgetting this was a conversation during an English lesson) And another poster told me I shouldn't complain about being able to go away. I replied that my parents go to Florida every winter because they don't like the cold anymore. No one (I know) thinks it's odd.

This sounds similar to the above 1.
It is not about going away when the weather is not what you like, but rather your criticism of the local weather (or Japanese weather).
People don't like confrontation so discussion and debates are not popular nor much encouraged, then many are not used to criticism and tend to take comments personally instead of being objective.
It really depends on the relationship (mental distance?), but people have less tolarence with criticism from out of their circle than those made from within. (And isn't it universal?)

 

[Revenant]

I'm fairly phlegmatic, and I know that what bothers other expats and drives them up a wall just doesn't get to me. In some ways, I rationalize all the behavior I don't understand in a positive light, and somehow that's a whole lot easier for me to do when I just don't know enough about the Japanese or the Japanese language to know the different nuances.

Unless the person I'm interacting with has some real reason for hoping I go back to Canada soon, I just assume it's curiousity that has them asking the question, 'so when are you going home?'

Most people I interact with are either temporary, so they don't have any reason to hope I go back (if they somehow just don't like me), or they can stop interacting with me (students can make up any number of excuses to quit). The few people who have constant contact with me and can't easily escape (were they to want me to disappear from their lives) just have never asked me, and they all seem to get on with me fine.

 

[gaijinalways]

undrentide posted

This sounds similar to the above 1.

Did you miss the part about it being part of an English lesson (in other words, it is not a 'regular' Japanese conversation or English conversation for that matter)?

Yes, I was short with her, and explained afterwards that this would not go over well with an English language speaker (nor with my wife or any Japanese for that matter). If you're saying it's not normal, no, some Japanese do criticize the weather here, but she was having difficulty making the distinction. And no, I could care less, English people complain about the weather in England all the time, and no one tells them to go home (like they could go somewhere else )!

undrentid posted

People don't like confrontation so discussion and debates are not popular nor much encouraged, then many are not used to criticism and tend to take comments personally instead of being objective.

This is why I tell Caster51 that flexibility is not a strong trait here.

 

[undrentide]

Did you miss the part about it being part of an English lesson (in other words, it is not a 'regular' Japanese conversation or English conversation for that matter)?

Oh please don't bark at me...

I know it was part of the English conversation lesson, but people sometimes do take some comments seriously, even it is just a part of lesson.

If you're saying it's not normal, no, some Japanese do criticize the weather here, but she was having difficulty making the distinction. And no, I could care less, English people complain about the weather in England all the time, and no one tells them to go home (like they could go somewhere else )!

Hmmm, I don't really understand what you are asking I'm saying not normal???
Sorry if my explanation is not clear enough or misleading, honestly I find it difficult to explain even in Japanese.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that many Japanese people take comments personally. Even if they complain about the local weather themselves, when someone from somewhereelse make the same complaint, they take it as a personal offence - I assume they feel as if they were responsible for the weather and being blamed on the bad weather.
And it is not limited to the weather, I think.

You are annoyed or irritated or frustrated with the reaction like the one you got from her because it is not what expected in your culture or from your point of view.
I simply stated the possible reason of such reaction.
I don't think that you should accept it - and if it is a part of English lesson, it is important for her to understand that it is rude.
But just thought it might make things easier to know why you get this kind of reaction from some Japanese people.
If I were abroad and found people's reaction or comments frustrating or rude or unacceptable, at least I'd want to know why.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't think that you should accept it - and if it is a part of English lesson, it is important for her to understand that it is rude.
But just thought it might make things easier to know why you get this kind of reaction from some Japanese people.
If I were abroad and found people's reaction or comments frustrating or rude or unacceptable, at least I'd want to know why.

I've never gotten that kind of reaction when I complain in Japanese, which is quite frequent. In English, even as part of a lesson, it isn't acceptable but within daily conversation shows such a low level of acclimation to me it is still much more understandable.

 

[Karamuucho]

Gaijinalways>
To be fair, the student(right?) said that you should go home, right? (You yourself are from another country I'm guessing) So, if she suggested you going back home, what has that got to do with your wife? Take your Japanese wife with you, to your home, or did I miss something here.

This is, however, under the presumption that by "you should go home", she meant "for the summer", as in, just during the most unbearable part. Or perhaps if she didn't know you were married.

Also, if this person was in need of taking English lessons, then her English is not gonna be perfect. Maybe it just didn't come out right? Like, when you know what you're trying to say, but you form the scentence and it comes out wrong, in this person's case maybe she didn't know?


MrJones>
On the "when are you leaving" thing, I still think it's acceptable that the person meant absolutely no wrong.
"When abouts will you be leaving us"
"How long will you be here for"
To be honest I wouldn't take offense from either, if in fact it was small talk, then even more so, 'cos it's just something that you'd say. That is to say though that maybe the person who said it really didn't like you, even if that was the case, that has absolutely nothing to do with Japanese culture, the rest of the country, it's just between you and him/her.

 

[taehyun]

I have a question, then.

A friend of mine, who wanted very much to befriend her senpai, 6th year PhD course, decided to start a conversation with him (She is undergraduate 4th year, entering Master course in March).She , however, didn't know anything about him besides the above(year, major,name, research) so after a little chat about his research, she asked him if he is graduating this year. He immediately frowned, took his stuff and moved to another table.
I have felt that it is like a taboo to ask PhDs when are they graduating, it makes the person feels pressure and upsets him/her.So why would be rude to ask a PhD when s/he is graduating, but won't be rude to ask a foreigner when is s/he leaving(going home)?

 

[gaijinalways]

undrentide posted

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that many Japanese people take comments personally. Even if they complain about the local weather themselves, when someone from somewhereelse make the same complaint, they take it as a personal offence - I assume they feel as if they were responsible for the weather and being blamed on the bad weather.
And it is not limited to the weather, I think.

Interesting idea, having god-like powers I mean. Yes, this is a problem for Japan, rejecting criticism of something because it wasn't done by a native.

undrentide posted

You are annoyed or irritated or frustrated with the reaction like the one you got from her because it is not what expected in your culture or from your point of view.
I simply stated the possible reason of such reaction.
I don't think that you should accept it - and if it is a part of English lesson, it is important for her to understand that it is rude.

No, but also because it doesn't make sense. It seems more like an emotional reaction (which does make sense), as she couldn't justify it after I pointed out that it would include any Japanese as well that have said the same thing, including my wife. But yes, these kinds of things are common in Japan, and my point is that an intermediate to upper intermediate level speaker would make such a statement seems odd at best.

undrentide posted

If I were abroad and found people's reaction or comments frustrating or rude or unacceptable, at least I'd want to know why.

My wife and a few other Japanese that I related the story to thought her statement was odd at best.

undrentide posted

Oh please don't bark at me...

Sorry, but in my mind the context tells a lot about this particular story. This didn't occur in a Japanese conversation, with someone I don't know at all (I had taught this same student several times already and her speciality, dermatology is specifically related to one of the problems I suffer from in the summers here).

Of course, if I just made the same comment to some Japanese person I don't know and had just met, yeah, I might expect a comment like that.

Your opinion is similar to the other doctor's opinion, though he himself is extremely emotional about criticisms of Japan, even when they are quite justified (though I assume you're not defending the 731 unit and the black van right-wingers as well).

So, if she suggested you going back home, what has that got to do with your wife? Take your Japanese wife with you, to your home, or did I miss something here.

This is, however, under the presumption that by "you should go home", she meant "for the summer", as in, just during the most unbearable part. Or perhaps if she didn't know you were married.

Why would home be better than traveling somewhere else, as long as the weather was better than here in Japan in the summer (less hot and humid)? And no, she meant permanently. And yes, my wife was included in the earlier remarks, though my wife is luckier in that she doesn't have skin problems here in the summer.

Also, if this person was in need of taking English lessons, then her English is not gonna be perfect. Maybe it just didn't come out right? Like, when you know what you're trying to say, but you form the scentence and it comes out wrong, in this person's case maybe she didn't know?

As stated above, this student is an intermediate to upper intermediate level student. At best she commited a gross cultural error, at best just an odd comment because her statement doesn't seem to acknowledge that there are others who might feel the same way, including other Japanese. Of course, who knows, some of them (Japanese) do want to leave Japan (but not usually just because of the summer weather) , so maybe she is pushing them in the right direction !

 

[pipokun]

My wife and a few other Japanese that I related the story to thought her statement was odd at best.

So you clearly understand it was an isolated example.
There are so many kinds of medical doctors, so intermediate to upper intermediate level students are.
What's your problem here?

undrentide just tried to explain the unexplainable.

 

[Mrjones]

So you clearly understand it was an isolated example.
There are so many kinds of medical doctors, so intermediate to upper intermediate level students are.
What's your problem here?
undrentide just tried to explain the unexplainable.

I quess his point is, that behaviour of student is not supposed to be like that, at least during teaching ?

Its kinda like fifty fifty if people are going to be nice for you, or not...--basicly like everywhere else.

 

[gaijinalways]

Hmm, interesting theory mrJones, maybe.

So you clearly understand it was an isolated example.
There are so many kinds of medical doctors, so intermediate to upper intermediate level students are.
What's your problem here?
undrentide just tried to explain the unexplainable.

Seemed more like he was defending the woman's action as reasonable. That was the impression I got.
As to a problem, I'd say the doctor has one, but unfortunately in Japan in my opinion, a lot of the well educated seem to behave in a similar manner.

Actually mrJones, I was thinking more no person would say that, especially a dermatologist who knows what the excessive summer humidity in Japan does to my skin.

 

[pipokun]

I don't think to say something about your rants is to reject criticism, but for your standard, it is not tolerable even in a small talk or eikaiwa lesson.
(sorry I don't know how eikaiwa is operated.)
Well, many teachers, many students.

 

[gaijinalways]

Sorry, it's hardly a rant, I think just something showing a lack of common sense. What I got out of it is that some Japanese will get emotional and feeling personally attacked by someone's comment about the weather, will recommend to you to leave the country. Yeah, right, sounds pretty 'normal' and polite to me!

Now this has been pointed out to be a common reaction by some Japanese to criticism, especially made by a non-Japanese. And this is a good example of how inflexible Japanese culture is, in this sense (I realize that in some other ways the Japanese are quite tolerant, i.e. with non-violent drunks, people talking to themselves, etc).

Just imagine if I was to say to you; you think I am ranting, you don't like it, YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS FORUM!!!!! Don't come back!

And sorry to be so blunt, but of course I would never ask you to do such a thing and it is hardly my position to ask you to do so. I am just trying to point out that mrjones' position is not that unreasonable.

Of course, one could argue about poor skills with dealing with foreigners, but I believe it goes beyond that and has to do with this purity illusion that many Japanese hold onto and how foreign aspects have 'dirtied' that. The government does a good job of pushing it, witness the recent push for teaching patriotism in Japan.

 

[pipokun]

Don't worry, I like the rants, but unfortunately in many cases people left here or other forums soon after a few threads or posts.

History, then the government...
About the evil patriotism policy, it is also the govenment who invites a lot of teachers from other countries.
At least your freedom of small talk is guaranteed.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Just imagine if I was to say to you; you think I am ranting, you don't like it, YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS FORUM!!!!!

This used to happen more than you might like to think.

 

[Karamuucho]

What I got out of it is that some Japanese will get emotional and feeling personally attacked by someone's comment about the weather, will recommend to you to leave the country. Yeah, right, sounds pretty 'normal' and polite to me!
Now this has been pointed out to be a common reaction by some Japanese to criticism, especially made by a non-Japanese. And this is a good example of how inflexible Japanese culture is, in this sense (I realize that in some other ways the Japanese are quite tolerant, i.e. with non-violent drunks, people talking to themselves, etc).

I still think that unless you ask the person, in a way that will get you the true answer, about their intent of the comment, you will never know.

However, I don't see how this is isolated to just Japan. Sure, Japan has been isolated in the past, but recently Japan has been seen increasingly to accept foreign cultures than in the past. This can be seen as some as Japan losing it's national characteristics (theres a better word that I can't remember right now, heh - but this may also be why they are pushing for lessons in patriotism in school). Still, one or two incidents, and the country and culture as a whole is intolerant of foreigners? I think that may be being a bit sensitive.

In London there are still people who are intolerant of foreigners. Also I wouldn't think twice if someone suggested returning to a country if they don't like the one they're residing in. In England however, it is not as common for people to return home to their countries as it is in Japan, and therefor the question "When are you leaving the country?" will raise a few eyebrows. In Japan though, a lot of foreigners eventually go back, maybe because of the harsher VISA requirements/restrictions, but if that is common knowledge, the question no longer seems quite as rude.

 

[gaijinalways]

Karamuucho posted

Still, one or two incidents, and the country and culture as a whole is intolerant of foreigners? I think that may be being a bit sensitive.

Sorry, there have been more than a few, I have only related one in this thread.

Sure, Japan has been isolated in the past, but recently Japan has been seen increasingly to accept foreign cultures than in the past. This can be seen as some as Japan losing it's national characteristics (theres a better word that I can't remember right now, heh - but this may also be why they are pushing for lessons in patriotism in school).

I hardly see the Japanese losing their culture. As to accepting culture, depends on your defintion of accepting.

In London there are still people who are intolerant of foreigners.

As in any country, but I think it's much more deeply ingrained here, the intolerance I mean. I'm fortunate that my wife's family is aﾂ lot more tolerant than the average family I have met/ heard of. Talk to some of your friends who are married to a Japanese person here, you'll see what I mean.
It's very common for people to be surprised that my wife is Japanese. Why be surprised. Also a common response by Japanese women is 'Sugoi!" Why is it great?! Only because generally they can't inmagine marrying anyone other than a Japanese person. Many things point to insularity in Japan amongst the native population. I know there are more than a few on this forum who want to defend it, as part of the culture, but I am not one of them. This type of xenophobia (even if it's not violent) almost always results in discrimination, which is a problem, and it's not something to be proud of nor to encourage.

 

[Mrjones]

Just imagine if I was to say to you; you think I am ranting, you don't like it, YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS FORUM!!!!! Don't come back!

and promt it before they post anything.

 

[pipokun]

Some students leave Japan, some want to stay here.
Students for their job-hunting have privilege to renew their visa.

Mrjones, what's your status as taehyun pointed out, temp or full time student?

gaijinalways, if I remember correctly, you said many Japanese were surprised to hear your wife was non-Japanese somewhere here.