very important to the Islam religion (go in now)

[alantin]

In the name of Allah the beneficent and merciful
First thing I didn't enter to internet coz I had meeting in Japanese center in the university.........

Sounds fun!

Secondly I wrote ( go in now ) I mean to inter to thread not to Islam

Okay. That explains it. Thanks!

( Allah create Adam and he doesn't have father and mother
,and create Hawwa by Adam only ......

Is Hawwa the same as Eve? I tried googling it.
Perhaps you should give us the English equivalents for the names. It would make your posts much easier to understand!

And create Isa without father)
So most people think that God is Isa's father.....

I think it is a common misconseption, many muslims have (and I have heard this before!), that the Biblical scripture tells that God fathered Isa in the mundane traditional sense and that this is what christians believe. I think saying such a thing is discusting blasphemy and only serves to exhibit the persons ignorance.
(This is not meant as a personal criticism towars you, Katsumoto, as you didn't really say that. Just how I feel about this.)

True, the term "Son of God" is used when refering to Isa in the Bible but the more accurate meaning is that He came from God. Not that God had intercourse with His mother..
For comparison; The Biblical scriptures often refer to the creations and followers of God as "the childeren of God".
In the Old Testament there are passages where even angels are called "the sons of God" and it doesn't mean that God fathered them!


It is noteworthy that the Quran, doesn't really tell much about Isa even though He is stated to be an important prophet.
As far as I understand, it merely tells about his unique birth and makes claims about His death, but suspiciously little is recorded about what he said and did. His Parables and teachings. His dealings with the religious hypocrites of the time, etc.

So. If you want to know about Isa, then the Quran doesn't tell you much and you need to read the Bible.
And if you haven't, I don't think you are in any position to make claims about Him OR about what other people in the world think about him for that matter.
An important prophet in your religion should merit the study.

Besides, you are making declarative sentences about "Allah" when there is no actual proof for him.

Yes. in this kind of setting the declarative sentences are a bad thing and I have noticed that people of different religions and ideologies don't usually take it as a sign of the resolution of ones faith..


Let us all endeavour for rich and respectful discussion in spite of our differences of opinnions!

 

[Mycernius]

on the topic of God/Allah
consider the following paradox.
God is ALL powerfull

Which god, whoses god? Have you any evidence whatsoever that your god an no others exist? Can you even provide verifiable evidence that any gods exist? If so plaese give examples, sources, research. Until them you are quoting from superstition. You might as well argue Santa exists.

as for your comment myc..
try to understand what INFINTE means...
i fear you aproach the subject with a closed mind...
and i would argue this thread is about metaphysics

I am fully aware what infinite means. As for the closed mind, pot, kettle and black come to mind. Your mind is closed to the possiblity that gods do not, or have ever existed.

God created the universe, the world and populated it with people.

Er, no. Look up abiogenesis and evolution for why there is life here. Nothing to do with a divinity.
And who created God?

then man created God, in his own image.

Finally something we agree on, although not from the same direction

So far all you have done is spout some spiritual meanings, but have provided nothing concrete that actually proves anything you have said. All it is is opinion.

What about the other two Abrahamic religions, what about all the little renegade sects, no, what about all the other belief systems?

You do know that at one time Islam was considered an heretical christian belief, not a seperate religion? I have met people on the net that still believe that.

It is noteworthy that the Quran, doesn't really tell much about Isa even though He is stated to be an important prophet.
As far as I understand, it merely tells about his unique birth and makes claims about His death, but suspiciously little is recorded about what he said and did. His Parables and teachings. His dealings with the religious hypocrites of the time, etc.

That have more to do that Muhammad sought refuge in a Jewish city for a while when he fled Mecca. He was exposed to Jewish teachings more than christian. I also believe that he had more trading with Jewish communties than christian.
Also when you dig depper on Isa/Jesus you find that the character seems to have more in common wth a typical mythical hero. Actually evidence on his existance is non-existant. Josephus' account, who is often quoted by those trying to show Jesus existed, has been shown to be a fake, entered in at a later date by persons unknown. Even the resurrection is a later addition. The oldest cannonical gospel (Mark) originally finished with just the empty tomb being discovered.

 

[Pachipro]

Anyway. According to the biblical scripture, God did exactly this in being born as Jesus. A full God and a full mortal man at the same time. The greatest philosophical paradox ever!

If "God" turned himself into Jesus and was born as a mortal, then who was Jesus speaking to when he asked his "father", "Why have you forsaken me?" and "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", when he was crucified? Was he speaking to himself? If "God" incarnated himself as a mortal, was there not a "God" overseeing the universe at the time of his incarnation or did he give up his duties to become a mere mortal? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Perhaps, to a simple-minded person, "God"/"Allah" could be mortal and immortal at the same time as that is what mortals prefer to believe.

And why do humans insist on giving "God"/"Allah", or whatever, human characteristics? If the "God", or "Allah" of the scriptures were a true "God", I believe He would be well, well, above jealousy and killing in "His" name infidels or those that refuse to be "born again". One of His commandments is, "Thou shalt NOT KILL!" If so, he would NEVER, EVER, condone the killing of even those who do not believe in Him. If he does, than that is NOT A GOD I wish to follow as it goes against everything I believe inside myself.

When the human race finally comes to the understanding, IMO, that religion, any religion, is just a way to control your independent, spiritual growth, and a means of controlling and brainwashing you for the gain of the ruling elite, there will always be strife, killing, religious wars, and hate on this planet. Always has been, and probably always will be as long as there are those who are willing to be led on a leash like a common animal.

But, then again, maybe that's why we are here. Do we allow ourselves to be controlled and directed by other mere mortals, or are we independent enough to think on our own and say, "Hell no!" and find our own true path and turn away from those who wish to control us for their own gains? As for myself, I prefer the latter. That is the true path I believe.

I also believe that there will be no second coming (I don't even believe in a first coming), there will be be no Armageddon, and there will be no rapture, for if it were true prophesy, it would've already occured with all that has transpired in this "hell" of a world already as man has forever said that current events, whether they be today or 2,000 years ago, were predicted in the bible and scripture. If that's what you believe, then more power to you, I don't knock you. I just believe you are being led around on a leash and should awake to the reality around you that you are being lied to. Christian, Muslim, Jew, it doesn't matter. It's all to control your thinking. Always has been and, I'm afraid, always will be.

 

[alantin]

Also when you dig depper on Isa/Jesus you find that the character seems to have more in common wth a typical mythical hero. Actually evidence on his existance is non-existant.

I would be happy to address this in depth but I'm on a holiday trip right now and all my reference material is back home. Perhaps when I get back!

Still I would like to challenge you to bring forth something to back your claim up since according to many researchers it is an indisputable fact that the person really lived.
I really haven't heard anyone question that with any credible data. Only with their uneducated opinnions and beliefs..
On the other hand, I have been presented with heaps of data on the countrary.

Yet. I'm not really sure if this is the right thread for this.. :?


@Pachipro
Do you think that the concept of "trinity" is a "simple-minded" idea? ☝
If you entertain the idea of an all-powerful God that is a person, Why would He/She/Whatever not be able to be several things at the same time? ☝
I'll see if I'll address some parts of your post more later!
Right now I'm too tired and my wife is pressing me to come to the table!

 

[Hezam]

If you want to know Islam well go to to the Correct Links
http://www.islamtoday.net/english
dont ask the non-muslims about islam because they won't tell you the truth.how can the people who hate islam tell you the truth ???
All my best wishes dear alantin ^^

 

[Red5]

hello Hezam ......
I speak with every(about islam) one but they speak without understanding

good luck man ...

 

[Haruspex]

I'd say don't ask a devout muslim because they'll barrage you with euphemism.
Speak without understanding? You're the one who can't think beyond the boundaries of a manmade fairytale live roleplaying game.

That pseudo sophisticated, pretending-to-be-refined wannabee camraderie owns as well.
But you're on the best path. Never question what people older, richer or of better social standing say to you. Its been that way for centuries, and its not worth changing it for something ridiculous such as equality and economic progress, pff, who needs those when the faithful are going to heaven, the hardcore with a zoo of virgins. If there was Allah, many of his followers wouldn't be in the economic, social and moral state they're in.

 

[theAlphaDuck]

Which god, whoses god? Have you any evidence whatsoever that your god an no others exist? Can you even provide verifiable evidence that any gods exist? If so plaese give examples, sources, research. Until them you are quoting from superstition. You might as well argue Santa exists.

I am fully aware what infinite means. As for the closed mind, pot, kettle and black come to mind. Your mind is closed to the possiblity that gods do not, or have ever existed.

Er, no. Look up abiogenesis and evolution for why there is life here. Nothing to do with a divinity.

And who created God?
Finally something we agree on, although not from the same direction
So far all you have done is spout some spiritual meanings, but have provided nothing concrete that actually proves anything you have said. All it is is opinion.

.

allow me to enlighten you...

firstly its not MY god...yet while i have no faith, i have an active and concrete understanding that GOD does exist...ALL gods...from Odin, zues, Buhda, to Allah (yes buhhda not god) exist...

just like Santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy.

the question is on which plane of existance/dimension/multiverse does it/you exsist.

also GOD Must be all powerfull, for if the universe is infinte (which it is as Time is an infinite dimention) then it would require an infinite amount of 'power' to express itself upon that universe, and even tho god does (and doesn't but let's keep it simple ) only exist in half of the universe, half of infinity is STILL infinity.

how did god create man and THEN man create god?
DO YOU ASUME TIME IS LINEAR JUST BECAUSE YOU EXPERIENCE IT SO?

take a look into quantum physics....
the particle either spins left or right....but currently it spins both left AND right....only when it is measured does it spin in a single direction...and somewhere in the universe another particle starts to spin in the opposite direction instantly (this is why quantum computers are going to revolutionise IT)
this is because it is IMPOSSIBLE to measure ANYTHING without Effecting it in some way...

so there is an infinite universe...where all possibilities and imposibilities have, will and are happening....and when you measure that universe you effect it.

as i said earlier....
you need to figure it out for yourself..

but ive given you more than enough to be able to make the relativly small leap to true understanding...

GOOD LUCK

 

[alantin]

dont ask the non-muslims about islam because they won't tell you the truth. how can the people who hate islam tell you the truth ???

All my best wishes dear alantin ^^

Thank you!

I think, it is important in this kind of international setting to understand that people from very different backgrounds view things very differently and if they don't believe something that you do, it doesn't necessary mean that they hate the concept or the people that represent it.
Religion perticularily is a subject that usually is bound to provoke some heated discussion due to its extremely personal nature.

hello Hezam ......
I speak with every(about islam) one but they speak without understanding
good luck man ...

I myself like to think that I'm always trying to gain more information, knowledge, and understanding and I have studied Islam and read some of the Quran to see what it is all about.

I know, I have presented myself in a very vestern way and I have heard that the style in the muslim world when talking about religion is quite more straightforward..
I'll try to make a statement using similar style.

As a devout Christian I believe that the Bible is the uncorrupted divine revelation of the ONLY all-powerful and righteous God that would not let His Word be corrupted by anyone or anything.
Since the Quran contradicts many things in the Bible, it cannot have possibly come from the only existing God.

Am I saying this without understanding?
I know that most western minded people would say so after what I just wrote.. And I know it goes against your most basic beliefs but it is my answer to your initial question:

do you believe in islam and prophet Mohammad ?????

If you don't like answer, you shouldn't ask the question.
And it is in the western nature to give thorough answers.


What bothers me is that, many of my questions and posts have gone unanswered by the OP if don't count the "Your wrong!" -response..

It feels like the OP hasn't been putting nearly as much effort to this thread lately as some other people.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

dont ask the non-muslims about islam because they won't tell you the truth.how can the people who hate islam tell you the truth ???
All my best wishes dear alantin ^^

I assume you're using the word 'truth' to mean endorsement of Islam. Not exactly the OED definition

You accuse us of hating Islam, call us liars and advise katsumoto not to ask us about Islam. This is what I hate most about religion - not just Islam, but countless others. It claims to bring people together, but it pushes them apart. I'd rather risk enternal damnation than belong to a club that excludes people because they attempt to think for themselves

 

[Red5]

I assume you're using the word 'truth' to mean endorsement of Islam. Not exactly the OED definition
You accuse us of hating Islam, call us liars and advise katsumoto not to ask us about Islam. This is what I hate most about religion - not just Islam, but countless others. It claims to bring people together, but it pushes them apart. I'd rather risk enternal damnation than belong to a club that excludes people because they attempt to think for themselves

I don't need advice from any one and I and hezem are muslim
have you any problem ???

 

[Mycernius]

Although I didn't close this thread, I commend the mod who did. Insults are not to be tolerated or out and out attacks. If you wish to discuss such things then try and be nice. Putting down people just because they are not part of your faith group does not a pleasant discussion make. This is the way to flame wars, infractions given and other such action.
Thank you.