U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

[Chidoriashi]

Man, if you hate the US so much then please do us all a favor and renounce your citizenship. I don't agree with people being raped of course, and stricter discipline is definitely necessary, but the fact is the US military isn't going anywhere. And in reality I think if the leaders in Tokyo really truly wanted them gone they would be. Perhaps they are putting up with it because they have bigger concerns in mind about the safety of their country. And by the way, rapists come in all nationalities, and the fact is I'm sure there is a much bigger problem with Japanese committing rapes against other Japanese than the US military. So if you are really on this seeming crusade for social justice to protect your friends and family you cannot single out one group that is causing a problem. Rape isnt going to go away when the US leaves Japan. Which makes me think you are really less concerned about the rape and more concerned about fueling your hatred for the US.

 

[otoko]

America and Japan have a security treaty, so America's forces are not leaving Japan.

Japan gets the security umbrella and America providing stability in the far east. Japan does have a potent self-defense force and they do spend the money. Still no one can come close to matching America's military strength. I don't see how Japan could make up for that even with more spending on defense. Also who would provide security(stability) in the far east? Japan could not because China and Korea would be absolutely opposed to that idea and vice versa.

All allies have disputes, whether it be trade or crimes(like the rape in Okinawa ). That this is indicative of failing relations between allies is untrue. Both countries know it is in their best interests to be allies and to have American forces in Japan.

 

[Glenski]

awakeneddragon,
Your arguments don't make sense.

No one deserves to be raped, true, but you write as if that is the only purpose in having U.S. troops here.

Look at statistics. More crimes are committed per capita by the local Japanese than by foreign military. The cases with the military just get more press, and people use this to fuel their demands to get the troops out.

The US get's angry when Japan catches bad beef.

As well it should. Are you implying otherwise? The U.S. screwed up royally on that one.

But the point is: Do all these bases belong here? There are over a DOZEN bases in Japan. We can talk about WWII, the treaty, the good that the US, in fact, HAS done. Yup, u-huh, but do Japanese deserve to be raped? No.
The Japanese have since WWII, in very good faith, turned around. Yes, they have become an economic giant. Great, good for them. But it's costing them.

The U.S. military presence in Japan continues because both sides want it. They both agreed to the terms. By "they", of course, I mean the governments, not necessarily the individual locals.

But more than this, they loose their culture daily. They are loosing themselves. They are paying dividends that are irreplacable. We can talk about this too.

I'd be happy to, but are you saying that the presence of military bases in Japan causes the loss of culture? If so, you are dead wrong. Culture evolves. Globalization is, well, global, and you can't stop it unless you shut off yourself from the rest of the world like Japan did for over 200 years. This is not that period. Japan's eyes are open to the rest of the world (just like every other developed country), so there are bound to be changes in culture. Don't blame it on soldiers.

What are the purposes of the bases? Having lived in several in Japan, I certainly loved them. But are they necessary here? Is the US really doing the world a favor by being here of all places?

Ask your government and Japan's. As I wrote above, they both agree on it.

Drop the attitude and be honest:
The US wants to wage a political and economic war in Iraq? Great. Cool. Yay, oil. So then, why doesn't the US put a dozen bases over THERE, where their presence is SO obviously needed?

Can you stay on topic here? Japan.

Stow your misquided history lessons. Your illusions about political realities. People like you are making the situation worse: Because the Japanese want it stopped.

Then it is up to the citizens to force change, because as you wrote, it is still the "old guard" in power.

 

[awakeneddragon]

Hate the USA?

How interesting that my words have been interpretted that way.

Do I have to defend myself as much as I've defended the US my entire life? OK:

You won't find a patriot greater than me. I came from the generation that considered the words of the Pledge of Allegience everyday in school I stood for and sang the National Anthem in theaters. Play me the tune and I can sing for you any song that has expounded the good, courageous and fine aspects of the US.

You have misinterpretted my disgust and withering hate for the elements of our own country that have decided to go on foreign soil and forget that each and every one of them is an ambassador.

Do I have to defend myself to my own people, fellow citizens?

Shame on you.

It is NOT hate for the US that makes me demand that the bases leave. It is my love.

Duty, honor, discipline. Sit on those words every day of your life. Attempt to live them. And when you stop being an armchair terrorist believing yourself to be a true hero because you see injustice BUT DO NOT ACT, then you can stand up and call yourself not only a proud citizen of the US, but a worthy representative of ALL of humanity.

I'd be glad to shake your hand then.

Until then? Necessity. Worst common denominator: The US military equation of their being in Japan. Because the worst of the US represents us all.

Have your day of silence. Have your discussions. Transfer people. But you and I know that this will all blow over, that those mediocre efforts are useless: It'll happen again and again just as it always has.

It is not with a Japanese voice that the outrage should be raised: It should be every citizen of the US that screams the loudest.

Shame on you.

The best defense I can offer in the name of the US is to be the GOOD citizen I have always been. To live my life with the precepts that surrounded me. Words, words, words. They are only a clever t-shirt and sappy sentiment unless you have the courage to live them.

And I'll tell you, weak people like YOU make it hard. Evil people like that rapist make it hard.

Proud to be an American?

Bring on your silly, uninformed dispersions. You know nothing. Be a bigot. Rest comfortably in the fact that you yourself did not commit those rapes--but would do nothing about it. Couch in the belief that the Japanese really need us here.

Pride has two meanings. I think I'm on the correct side. I think it's obvious what side YOU are on.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Ok, I`m not going to bother with a rebuttal to every little point of your self-righteous speech, or the fact that you have the gall to assume you know what kind of person or citizen someone you know nothing about has been. What I will do though is ask you what exactly is it that you are doing to combat rape in society? B*tching about it on an online forum?... oh yeah! way to set the wheels of change in motion. Or do you run around the town at night in tights and a cape hunting them all down with the tools in your trusty utility belt? My point is you aren`t doing a thing about it either. Are you haughty enough to think you can single handedly change society? US forces leaving Japan isnt going to stop rape, it isnt going to stop murder, it isnt going to do anything about crime as a whole, so arguments that the US should leave Japan because a few of them are acting up once in a while are invalid. What are you other arguments do you have for why the US should leave Japan? You say they arent necessary, but why? The fact is just like Glenski said, the US military is still in Japan because BOTH SIDES want it. That may not be what your neighbors are saying but it is what the gov`t is saying. If the US leaving is really that big of a deal to you stop wasting time b*tching about it on an online forum and use your energy where it matters. Talk to the politicians and the Japanese gov`t. You accomplish nothing by posting on here!

 

[Glenski]

awakeneddragon,
So, you are proud to be an American. ok. Nothing wrong in that.
You have pride in the USA. Again, no problem.

I don't understand your application of the word "justice", though. Could you explain that a bit more? Your rather lengthy and well-chosen words smack of someone running for office, not chatting on an Internet forum. (No real problem with the language you choose, other than the fact that it makes it hard to understand where you are coming from sometimes, ok?)

You want the US out of Japan because of a few bad eggs (and those words are not meant to belittle the more heinous crimes they have committed, ok?). Does that mean you think there will always be such types, so American military forces should never be posted anywhere except on American soil? That would certainly maintain an image and illusion of the "nice guy" in Americans. But are you thinking of Americans' image alone? It would seem so, otherwise you'd accept the fact that US military forces are human beings and need to have rules imposed upon them to keep them in line, but even the best of intentions won't resolve that matter. Take them out and what do you have?

"Evil people like that rapist" should probably read "alleged rapist", shouldn't it? I thought you came from a land of democracy where the accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty. (Yes, the whole incident puts the US in a bad light. But you seem to want the whole military contingent out of the country.)

Oh, and I think you really went too far in calling Chidoriashi an "armchair terrorist". What gives you the right to do that?

 

[awakeneddragon]

Bully

I have strong opinions supported by strong beliefs borne from a life that I've fought for. The purpose of this thread was to post an opinion on an exceedingly touchy subject that I have no doubt is linked to many variables.

I believe I've sufficiently made clear my opinion. If people wish to start up a different thread on the ins and outs of my thoughts I'd only be too happy to go there and field questions like a battle axe or a politician or a sane human being.

What people feel are mutually exclusive doesn't make sense to me. Read into that statement what you will.

As to thoughts about solutions to this and the other evils of the world, by whomever commits them, I don't think this thread was titled for that. If someone starts such a thread I'd be interested to see it. As to what I've done to fight evil where I've seen it?

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

I tell you. When the world isn't looking, or worse, when it is, if you cannot make a simple statement in the defense of the victimized and the week, then you aren't just a bad citizen of whatever country you claim as yours, but a horrible human being. In this instance we make issue of citizenship, of professions, of whatever side of the fence you want to sit on. If you cannot do more say something then you've already changed the world.

I wrote my letter to the President. I wrote my letter to the Prime Minister. I didn't hide behind an avatar, a cute name and a catch phase. Full name, number and address.

What did you do?

I'll leave this topic (looking forward to others--because this all really is fascinating) with just one more thought: The rapist was evil (and I do appreciate the humor of that wonderful line "alleged." That cracks me up every time--thank you), but if nothing else understand that there is an evil greater than that: Doing nothing.

Because for all those times when I ever stood up to evil it was the people standing on the sidelines that disappointed more than anything.

Play with words all you like. Make gray/grey what is black and white.

If you aren't willing to throw yourself at the lions then you and I will never speak the same language.

Conviction. It's in your gut. Tear it out and take it for a spin. You'll make plenty of mistakes, but the point is the attempt.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Really? Tell that to Koreans and Chinese. Many young people in those countries are taught to still hate the Japanese because of WW II even though they were not alive at the time and Japan is no where near what it was before and during WW II.

Very true indeed and In Australia, we have forgiven, some anyway, but have never forhgotten and the young one's are taught here.

My friends parents in Thailand pretty much hold a strong dislike towards anything Jpanese because of the past time attrocities they committed..

 

[Chidoriashi]

Umm your point at the beginning was all about why the US should leave Japan, and it was basically cuz some of them are causing problems/commiting crimes. And I've already said 3 times now that the US leaving Japan isnt going to bring an end to rape in Japan etc. But you seem to be turning this into a self glorification-holier than thou discussion..

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

Umm ok, yes, yes, no, maybe? These questions are all circumstantial and you know I really don't keep track of all my good deeds, cuz I'm not that obsessed with how wonderful I am. I have a conviction to do what is right, but you seemed to be obsessed with how perfect you are. You have turned this into a discussion on how righteous you are and how scummy everyone else is. Pride was the devil's flaw my friend.

Anyway what I would really like to hear from you is valid reasons why the US should leave Japan. So in order to do that you need to debunk possible reasons why the US is here. Only then do you have solid reason to demand that they leave. A few of them doing bad things doesn't seem to be turning the heads of people calling the shots, so if you were to bring this argument to them I don't really see it being effective.

 

[Chidoriashi]

What did you do?

I didn't do a thing because I don't believe the US leaving is going to do jack squat about rape/murder etc. in Japanese society.

You seem to, and you wrote your letters so good for you.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Ok. Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

What if those opportunities have never arisen? I'm sure most people have never come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress because the opportunity does not usually exist in the everyday life of a person.

 

[Glenski]

Have you ever stood up to a bully? Have you ever quit because you didn't like what you were seeing? Have you ever been fired because you did the right thing? Have you ever come to the rescue of damsels and danes in distress? The list goes on like this. If you haven't answered yes to all of the above then you aren't a person that I would like to know.

I've done all of the above. I feel I deserve straight answers to my very straight questions. Don't put up a smokescreen or diversion by saying other people should start threads in reply to statements you made. Answer those questions!

I didn't hide behind an avatar, a cute name and a catch phase. Full name, number and address.
What did you do?

I am not hiding behind anything. You are. You are hiding behind empty rhetoric and a refusal to answer very direct questions. That is considered trolling on the Internet and is punishable on many web sites.

You may have been brave. You seem very patriotic. You have very strong opinions but have a very tough time explaining them. Help us here by engaging in a conversation instead of a monologue.

My avatar is not that cute, anyway.

I'll leave this topic (looking forward to others--because this all really is fascinating) with just one more thought: The rapist was evil (and I do appreciate the humor of that wonderful line "alleged." That cracks me up every time--thank you), but if nothing else understand that there is an evil greater than that: Doing nothing.

Well, then, you are the evil, because you have done nothing to reply here. You are the bully, in other words. I'm standing up to you. There was no rape. It was admitted. It has not gone to court so it is only alleged. That is a pretty clear semantic point that any one, military or civilian, should be able to understand.

Because for all those times when I ever stood up to evil it was the people standing on the sidelines that disappointed more than anything.
Play with words all you like.

Look who's talking about playing with words! Look at all this mess you have typed yet not replied to anything I've written! Hypocrite.

 

[Sukotto]

the title of this thread is unfortunate

well, at least the ! marks are.


i guess, depending upon how p.o.'d a Japanese person you are.
i wish the person who started the thread were still around.

 

[Dogen Z]

Even more reason to reduce U.S. troops in Japan

"The Army also listed a handful of felony waivers granted for kidnapping, making terroristic threats, rape or sexual abuse, and indecent acts or liberties with a child."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/washington/22waiver.html?ref=us

 

[Glenski]

for those who don't want to be here, than I believe they shouldn't be here.

And, just exactly how are you going to ensure that? Let enlisted men vote on their assignments? Yeah, right.

 

[Yan]

There's something we must understand about USA. U.S. forces but their nose everywhere even if it's not their business. They should get out of Japan and even get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Same for the Canadian forces. I'm sick of army because they are everywhere. The U.S. has an army so they should keep it in their country instead of putting it everywhere in the world.

I'm not an expert about military but that's what I think...

 

[Capster78]

There's something we must understand about USA. U.S. forces but their nose everywhere even if it's not their business. They should get out of Japan and even get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Same for the Canadian forces. I'm sick of army because they are everywhere. The U.S. has an army so they should keep it in their country instead of putting it everywhere in the world.
I'm not an expert about military but that's what I think...

Thats fine, but when the terrorists cause unrest in the middle east and fighting breaks out.. With all the boarder disputes in the middle east and surrounding areas, you may find yourself defending your own country.

Namely.. India and Pakistan (both nuclear), China and India (both nuclear), China and Taiwan, Israel and the rest of the middle east, Iran and Iraq, North Korea and South Korea. The only reason alot of these countries behave is because we are close by keeping an eye on them. Several countries in that area of the world do not like their neighbors. One spark, and the possability for WWIII is prety good. Especially if the middle east decides to gang up on Israel.

 

[Yan]

Yes but the official reason of Iraq war is "terrorism" but what the U.S. gouvernment doesn't want to say is the true reason of this war: petrole. Bush attacks Iraq and Afghanistan because he's only thinking about himself.

Anyway, I don't want to live the Third World War in my life only because of U.S. Americans.

 

[Mars Man]

Let's please keep the discussion on topic folks, and anything other than that of American troops as it relates to being based in Japan, is going to be off-topic.

 

[Yan]

I'm sorry. I'm really angry about Iraq war so I forgot the subject of this thread and I posted a off-topic message.

 

[Capster78]

Yes but the official reason of Iraq war is "terrorism" but what the U.S. gouvernment doesn't want to say is the true reason of this war: petrole. Bush attacks Iraq and Afghanistan because he's only thinking about himself.
Anyway, I don't want to live the Third World War in my life only because of U.S. Americans.

Your understand of terrorism is not very good. Why do you think terrorism exists? It is because you have several different factions living in the same country that have conflicting beliefs. It is a power struggle. This happens all over the world. We are not everywhere terror exists. We are in the middle east because terrorism in that part of the world can cause unstability that could spark much larger conflicts (Iran/Iraq war as an example). It is a matter of escalation. If you look at history, world wars did not break out overnight. There was an escalation of events that lead to countries picking sides. Many of these countries wanted to exploit the war because they saw opertunities to settle old unsolved issues with their neighbors. This is what we are trying to prevent right now. You have to look at the big picture.
I know the moderators above, said this was off topic. It is one of the reasons US forces are in japan. We are here to not only provide defense for japan, but also as a foreward operating location for issues that happen in Korea and the middle east. The deterent of US forces in Japan has been one of the factors that has kept China and North Korea at bay,

 

[hotaruika]

I belive Japan need US Forces for safe of east Asia.
Japan must form an alliance USA or Russia,communism Chaina.becouse Japan have not nuclear wepon.
I belive USA is best of ３ country.becouce USA have Democracy,liberalism and strongly forces.
EastAisia contories are playing an arms race now.
Japanese government and Forces must control risk of war in cooperation with US Forces Japan.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

I stopped reading this thread before I found more than one sensible statement.

 

[Sukotto]

Let's please keep the discussion on topic folks, and anything other than that of American troops as it relates to being based in Japan, is going to be off-topic.

I would just like to say that sometimes things to go abound in discussions.
As long as they relate back to the main topic.

ex: US forces in Japan.
One might argue they are needed for x blanket or simple one sentence reason.
But there may be things that are connected to disprove x blanket reason.

I'm just saying a discussion may mention things more, but I believe as long as it relates back to the main topic, and the poster makes this clear, it should be allowed.

 

[Capster78]

"The Army also listed a handful of felony waivers granted for kidnapping, making terroristic threats, rape or sexual abuse, and indecent acts or liberties with a child."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/washington/22waiver.html?ref=us

I guess you missed this in your article....

"Over all, the numbers represent less than 1 percent of the 115,000 new enlistments last year in the active-duty Army and Marine Corps."

That is just enlistments in the last year, that is not inclusive of thouse who are already in the Army/Marine's. Then you also have to consider that more than half of the military that is stationed in Japan is Air Force. The Air Force does not grant wavers for any type of misconduct. So you are talking about probably a quartern to a tenth of a percent. Then you also have to consider the percentage of thouse that ever get sent to Japan as most of thouse troubblemakers are in jobs that would put them in Iraq or Afghanistan because they are desperatly needed in Combat roles which are not present in Japan.