Trying to figure out the meaning of a sentence

[Toritoribe]

In any event, I think my posts today are showing me that it's time to take another extended break from internet forums, as I'm probably doing more harm to my own mental health and to all of you than I'm doing anything resembling good.

Cheers to you all.

Oh, no, no, please do not say such a thing! This is a very rare case where I made correction to your post. Your contributions to this forum so far are no doubt huge and incredible. We definitely need you who are fluent in both languages and who can see things from English speakers' viewpoint. Hope you'll give us your insightful replies in the future, too, sincerely.

 

[bentenmusume]

I've never seen you do anything but good here. If it was anything I said, I apologize.

Hope you'll give us your insightful replies in the future, too, sincerely.

You're both very kind, and my apologies if I worried you, or made you feel in any way that something you said was the impetus for my response.

I'm just a bit frustrated with myself lately and thought it best if I take a bit of a break from internet forums for the sake of my own mental health.

 

[karenk]

But yes, I fully admit to being biased here. And yes, I'm already older than I'd like to be and probably won't be enjoying a particularly long life given my recent health, and I doubt I'll be encouraging my daughter to follow in my footsteps, even if she does show an interest in language.

In any event, I think my posts today are showing me that it's time to take another extended break from internet forums, as I'm probably doing more harm to my own mental health and to all of you than I'm doing anything resembling good.

Cheers to you all.

Please, stay around to answer at least my questions! I really enjoy your take on the texts, your knowledge and energy! And I love the fact that you have a passion for your profession and see literary translation as a form of art. I usually come here with my bad and lazy English just to clarify some points and get the gist of what is written to elaborate it further in my own language but it is so helpful! Everybody here contributes with their knowledge and I have learned a lot along all these years...

And I really feel you when you say that you are "older than I'd like to be and probably won't be enjoying a particularly long life given my recent health" because, girl, unfortunately we are in the same boat here.

 

[karenk]

Hi, still translating Tamura's text. How would you translate 善良な妻でいることを願うような媚が in the passage below? Could 媚 be translated as "seduction"? "A seduction that seemed to ask her to be a virtuous wife"?

而かも新田へ対する優子の愛は、新田が自分を善良な妻として求めよ うとするある一時の要求にも背向くことをさせなかった。新田の満足の前には、善良な妻 でいることを願うような媚が、何時ともなく彼女の心底に滲みひろがって居る事を優子は 自身に感じていた。それは優子に取っては恐しい妥協の最初であった。

 

[Toritoribe]

The nuance would be closer to "ingratiating/fawning."

 

[karenk]

Hi, I've been wondering about how to translate this passage: なんでもいいから私の心に觸って貰ひたくないの。私の心にさはられる のが厭なの

Is it okay to think that it means something like: "I don't care what it is, I don't want you to make me feel anything/touch my heart. I hate to be moved."?

 

[Toritoribe]

なんでもいいから is more likely "at any rate/anyhow". The rest are OK.

 

[karenk]

なんでもいいから is more likely "at any rate/anyhow". The rest are OK.

Hi, Tori! Yes, this なんでもいいから sounds more rhetorical than anything to me... Trying to figure out how to translate it into my language... Thank you!

 

[karenk]

Hi! So, what does 括り(くくり) could mean in the passage below? Could it mean "end/closing" of the (every)day, or that she ends up going from room to room carrying the pillow everyday? Thank you!

私は毎日括り枕を座敷から座敷へ持ち歩いて、行きなりに疊の上の彼方 此方へごろりごろりと横になつてゐます

 

[Majestic]

Its a kind of compound word, no? 括り枕
She's bringing it from room to room.

括枕(くくりまくら)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク

精選版 日本国語大辞典 - 括枕の用語解説 - 括枕〈吉原美人合〉〘 名詞 〙 そばがら、茶がらなどを入れ、両端をくくりとめて作った枕。箱枕、木枕などに対していう。くくり。[初出の実例]「つぼむ花はくくり枕かぬる胡蝶〈延勝〉」(出典：俳諧・毛吹草（1638）五)

kotobank.jp

 

[karenk]

Its a kind of compound word, no? 括り枕
She's bringing it from room to room.

括枕(くくりまくら)とは？ 意味や使い方 - コトバンク

精選版 日本国語大辞典 - 括枕の用語解説 - 括枕〈吉原美人合〉〘 名詞 〙 そばがら、茶がらなどを入れ、両端をくくりとめて作った枕。箱枕、木枕などに対していう。くくり。[初出の実例]「つぼむ花はくくり枕かぬる胡蝶〈延勝〉」(出典：俳諧・毛吹草（1638）五)

kotobank.jp

Thank you! I was so focused on 括り that it never occurred to me that it could be a compound word.

 

[karenk]

Hello everyone! I'm wondering how should I read 兎て, うさぎ doesn't make any sense to me here. I suppose it means "fast" or something like that...

私は家のなかをそろそろと這ふ樣にして歩いてみます。兎てせかせかと動く事なんかは出來ません

 

[Majestic]

I read this as 兎って せかせかと動くことなんかは 出来ません。
Rabbits - they just cant move hastily.

But, in English it seems very counter-intuitive, as we tend to think of rabbits as moving quickly, so maybe I have this wrong.

 

[karenk]

I read this as 兎って せかせかと動くことなんかは 出来ません。
Rabbits - they just cant move hastily.

But, in English it seems very counter-intuitive, as we tend to think of rabbits as moving quickly, so maybe I have this wrong.

Hum, that's another take on this phrase... I don't know if a little more context can help but here it goes. Maybe someone else has another idea:

私は家のなかをそろそろと這ふ樣にして歩いてみます。兎てせかせかと動く事なんかは出來ません。それで家のなかの壁がうるさくってうるさくって仕方がない時があるんです。

 

[mdchachi]

Are there literal rabbits in the story? This is what DEEPL translates it to:
I tried to crawl around the house. I can't move so fast because of the rabbits. Sometimes the walls of my house are so noisy that I can't help it.

 

[bentenmusume]

I mean no offense at all, but I really people wouldn't push DeepL (or any machine translation) as the way to understand -- well, any Japanese, but especially extremely nuanced, literary Japanese. DeepL literally has no insight whatsoever as to the greater context of the story, and does not possess a more fundamentally enlightened knowledge of the text than karenk, Majestic, you, or literally any human being analyzing this.

If there are no "rabbits" in this story, I would be very, very, strongly inclined to think that is _not_ in any way the correct interpretation.

兎 can be read as "と" and とて is an expression, so it could possibly be related to that sort of meaning, but I can't say this is something I've encountered previously, so I'm hesitant to speak definitively about it. (Which means I guess I should probably shut up about DeepL? But still, I feel the need to discourage the use of machine translation as a way of truly understanding Japanese.)

 

[karenk]

Are there literal rabbits in the story? This is what DEEPL translates it to:
I tried to crawl around the house. I can't move so fast because of the rabbits. Sometimes the walls of my house are so noisy that I can't help it.

No, no rabbits so far.

 

[karenk]

I mean no offense at all, but I really people wouldn't push DeepL (or any machine translation) as the way to understand -- well, any Japanese, but especially extremely nuanced, literary Japanese. DeepL literally has no insight whatsoever as to the greater context of the story, and does not possess a more fundamentally enlightened knowledge of the text than karenk, Majestic, you, or literally any human being analyzing this.

If there are no "rabbits" in this story, I would be very, very, strongly inclined to think that is _not_ in any way the correct interpretation.

兎 can be read as "と" and とて is an expression, so it could possibly be related to that sort of meaning, but I can't say this is something I've encountered previously, so I'm hesitant to speak definitively about it. (Which means I guess I should probably shut up about DeepL? But still, I feel the need to discourage the use of machine translation as a way of truly understanding Japanese.)

Hi, good to see you here! What you wrote makes sense. But it could be a typo as well. I've converted an old digitalized image of the book into text. You can find it online here: 誓言 - ジャパンサーチ

This passage is on page 130.

Maybe I should look for a newer version of the text somewhere else to see if there is some kind of explanation...

 

[Toritoribe]

Welcome back, bentenmusume-san!!

It's not a typo of 兎, but you missed a hiragana. The original text is 兎てもせかせかと動く事なんかは出來ません. This is a kind of 当て字 for とても, as bentenmusume-san suggested.

とても【兎ても】
当て字語典

夏目漱石 is well-known for using these kinds of 当て字, like 兎に角 for とにかく or 矢張り for やはり.

 

[karenk]

Welcome back, bentenmusume-san!!

It's not a typo of 兎, but you missed a hiragana. The original text is 兎てもせかせかと動く事なんかは出來ません. This is a kind of 当て字 for とても, as bentenmusume-san suggested.

とても【兎ても】
当て字語典

夏目漱石 is well-known for using these kinds of 当て字, like 兎に角 for とにかく or 矢張り for やはり.

I think that I need a prescription for reading glasses... I read the original passage many times and simply missed the も

 

[mdchachi]

I mean no offense at all, but I really people wouldn't push DeepL (or any machine translation) as the way to understand -- well, any Japanese, but especially extremely nuanced, literary Japanese. DeepL literally has no insight whatsoever as to the greater context of the story, and does not possess a more fundamentally enlightened knowledge of the text than karenk, Majestic, you, or literally any human being analyzing this.

If there are no "rabbits" in this story, I would be very, very, strongly inclined to think that is _not_ in any way the correct interpretation.

兎 can be read as "と" and とて is an expression, so it could possibly be related to that sort of meaning, but I can't say this is something I've encountered previously, so I'm hesitant to speak definitively about it. (Which means I guess I should probably shut up about DeepL? But still, I feel the need to discourage the use of machine translation as a way of truly understanding Japanese.)

You've chastised me about DeepL before but it's just another reference. A.I. tools like this provide a different perspective because it's pattern matching at a scale and in a different way than humans. To me it's no different than looking words up in jisho.org or asking random people on the Internet. It's just one more reference or "opinion" if you will. Obviously it's going to have difficulty with characteristics peculiar to this author.
It's nothing short of amazing for every day Japanese. Some of my colleagues' English capability are dismal -- even in written English -- yet they are communicating effectively using DEEPL almost exclusively. I often use it to check that what I write in Japanese is aligned with what I am trying to convey. So I can detect a misplaced particle, or wrong kanji, before sending my email.

 

[karenk]

So, I have some other things I'd like to check with you. How would interpret 自超して? I understand that her art allowed her to lead an "indepent/self-sufficient" life, but is that so?

さうしてあなた自身の藝術が、あなたにさうした自超して生活をつゞけさせたと云ふ事も私には嬉し いのでした。

Now, here I got confused: 私はすべてに向つて自分の女と云ふ事を忘れてゐる事が出來ました. What could she be meaning with 自分の女? That she could forget that she was a "married woman", a woman whose identity was attached to her marriage?

あなたと一所にゐられる間の私は、臆面のない無邪氣な限りのない明るさの中に浸ってるられる子供 になつてゐる事が出來ました。さもなければ恐しくある權威を感じた一人の藝術家と云ふやうな他に對して思ひ上つた氣分を持つてゐる事が出來ました。私はすべてに向つて自分の女と云ふ事を忘れてゐる事が出來ました。自分の現在の生活からちょいと立越えてみられる様な感じが味はへたのも其の頃でした。

 

[Toritoribe]

So, I have some other things I'd like to check with you. How would interpret 自超して? I understand that her art allowed her to lead an "indepent/self-sufficient" life, but is that so?

Hmm, I think 自超 would mean "to surpass oneself", and 自超して shows that it expresses how she lives.

Now, here I got confused: 私はすべてに向つて自分の女と云ふ事を忘れてゐる事が出來ました. What could she be meaning with 自分の女? That she could forget that she was a "married woman", a woman whose identity was attached to her marriage?

It's 自分の、女と云ふ事, i.e., 自分の modifies the whole 女と云ふ事, not just 女. 自分が女であると云ふ事 makes more sense, maybe?

 

[karenk]

Hmm, I think 自超 would mean "to surpass oneself", and 自超して shows that it expresses how she lives.

But is it a word that she made up, a kind of neologism, or does it exist? Is it common to employ ideograms to express a notion even when the word can't be found in a dictionary (well, I couldn't find it)?

It's 自分の、女と云ふ事, i.e., 自分の modifies the whole 女と云ふ事, not just 女. 自分が女であると云ふ事 makes more sense, maybe?

That makes much more sense, I guessed that this could be the meaning implicit in the phrase, but again, is it a common phrasal construction?

 

[Toritoribe]

But is it a word that she made up, a kind of neologism, or does it exist? Is it common to employ ideograms to express a notion even when the word can't be found in a dictionary (well, I couldn't find it)?

I couldn't find it in dictionaries, either, but google search results show that an athlete and his coach use 自超力 as 自分を超える力. Even if it's a coined word, the readers can understand the meaning when the word is used in an appropriate context.

That makes much more sense, I guessed that this could be the meaning implicit in the phrase, but again, is it a common phrasal construction?

The structure/wording is uncommon, so it's a bit confusing, but I think the readers would be able to get the meaning correctly from the context.