The Kanji Appreciation Thread

[Kyoko_desu]

Hey leon, you've created such a nice and educational thread!
It's so good and again your 好感度アップ～！

Now I can stab a question I have held since I was a junior high school girl.
The question is:
Why many of the kanji which is related to body parts have 月(moon)?
For example:

• 肩 - shoulder
• 肘 - elbow
• 脚 - leg
• 腕 - arm
• 胸 - chest
• 骨 - bone
• 腹 - belly
• 胃 - stomach
• 腸 - intestine
• 腰 - waist
• 背中 - back
• 心臓 - heart
• 筋肉 - muscle

I can understand why kanji for the tree names such as 梅、桜、松 have 木.
It's also easy to understand water related kanji have サンズイ , like 池、海、波、涙、汗、注ぐ.
Then how come body parts have 月? I would rather use 身 instead of 月 for the body related kanji.

Does anyone know?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

That one's easy. It's not actually moon. It's niku. Give me a moment...

 

[JimmySeal]

Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

肉：にく
月：にくづき

「部首解釈」
これを部首にして、肉の状態・性質、体の部分・状態などに関する意を表す字ができている。偏になると、省略されて月の字形になる。本来、月（つき）・(Sorry, I can't get it to come up)（ふね）とは区別されるが、
常用漢字体ではすべて月の形となった。

「漢和辞典」 角川書店

 

[leonmarino]

Hey leon, you've created such a nice and educational thread!
It's so good and again your 好感度アップ～！

What people don't know is that created this thread just to get some attention from you..

Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.

肉：にく
月：にくづき

Wow! I feel like I'm getting smarter each time I visit this thread! Thanks for the info!!
[Edit: By the way, I thought にくづき was 肉付き, but I guess in this context it is 肉月, isn't it?]

 

[Kyoko_desu]

Oh yeah, 月 and 肉, they look so similar! Thanks you all for answering my question. (Isn't it a shame for a Japanese to be taught about kanji by non-Japanese people? )

 

[yukio_michael]

I've just purchased the book "Kanji Power" by John Millen, to better help me practice learning kanji in a structured way other than just by the flashcards (Tuttle of course), which I use. Does anyone have any experience with this book good or bad? The reviews on Amazon are mixed, but generally speaking I'm fond of the books that Tuttle put out.

 

[Qutiepie]

Wow, so even in China there are different kinds of Kanji.. I'm looking forward to seeing your link!!

Hi .... Leonmarino


* Here is the learning website for Cantonized-Chinese Kanji.Click on forum post reads " word of the moment ",takes you to a page has some old written posts explained the meanings of Cantonized-Chinese sentences and words in English.

Learn Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese



* One nice website for formal Chinese Kanji @ Learn Chinese Characters
This place has a banner with pre-program deciphers Chinese script,one character at a time 24/7.

 

[Qutiepie]

Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.

Precise thorough explantion as written in Chinese dictionary.

 

[leonmarino]

Hi .... Leonmarino
* Here is the learning website for Cantonized-Chinese Kanji.Click on forum post reads " word of the moment ",takes you to a page has some old written posts explained the meanings of Cantonized-Chinese sentences and words in English.
Learn Cantonese and Mandarin Chinese

An interesting site to say the very least!! Thank you very much. Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese? I very much enjoyed the "loan words" section, and this external link. 媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word too!!

* One nice website for formal Chinese Kanji @ Learn Chinese Characters
This place has a banner with pre-program deciphers Chinese script,one character at a time 24/7.

Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful.

 

[MrWabu]

Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese? I very much enjoyed the "loan words" section, and this external link. 媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word too!!Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful.

Cantonese is Hong Kong Chinese (plus some southern regions of China). It says at the bottom of one of those links the word for Taxi was Cantonese only, so its possible that because of British colonial rule, they may have more English loan words than traditional Chinese (which would be Mandarin).
Cantonese uses traditional kanji. Mandarin's kanji have been radically simplified. Although Japanese have been simplified somewhat, you probably will find it easier to recognise traditional kanji.

 

[Qutiepie]

Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese ? I very much enjoyed the "loan words

媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word

Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful.

Yes,this site is in Traditional Chinese.Those Cantonized-Chinese Kanji loanwords are transliterated from Western languages mainly English.

We borrowed it from Japanese and also transliterated from it's original Japanese romaji mama-san.

Good,it's an excellent learning tool for Kanji enthusiasts.


* Uwants.com is Hong-Kong based website has a percentage of Cantonized-Kanji.The site's forum titles Hot Topic Discussion ( in 4 Traditional Chinese characters ) has many posts written in either entirely or partially Cantonized-Kanji by Cantonese-speaking Chinese forumers there.

* 遊戲基地 gamebase is Taiwan based website in 100% formal Chinese script.

 

[twinklestar]

Cantonese is Hong Kong Chinese (plus some southern regions of China).

Cantonese uses traditional kanji. Mandarin's kanji have been radically
simplified.

I have to make some clarifications here,I request non-Chinese refrain from making non-factual statements in regard to Chinese people and culture.

Cantonese and Mandarin are Chinese spoken dialects,irrelevant to whether it's Simplified or Traditional Chinese script which is a matter of governmental policy and practice of privately-owned businesses.It's not what dialect Chinese speak decides the form of Chinese script we write.

Cantonese are Chinese who speak Cantonese dialect or trace ancestry to the province of Canton,not restricted to those reside in Hong Kong.Some Hong Kong Chinese are Shanghainese,Hakkas,Fujianese,and other non-Cantonese.

China,Singapore and Chinese communities in Malaysia use Simplified Chinese,Taiwan and Hong Kong plus Chinese communities outside Far East use Traditional Chinese ( except a few PRC-leaning newspapers and private enterprises ).

 

[leonmarino]

Hello Twinklestar, and thank you very much for your information! It seems like our Chinese friends have a few different scripts, depending on their place in China. Which I find very interesting because China is often seen by (shallow) westerners as a very homogenous people.

I have to make some clarifications here,I request non-Chinese refrain from making non-factual statements in regard to Chinese people and culture.

I'm pretty sure MrWabu just tried to help us. It's a pity MrWabu's information doesn't concurr with yours, but in essence let us be thankful for his input. I do understand your reaction Twinklestar; I have a hard time refraining from expressing my discontect myself when someone mentions something "bogus" about either Holland or Japan.

But still, let us not fall into the "you can't say anything about that because.." and "what would you know about.."-trap. We're all here to either learn or have a good time.. Or both if possible!!

 

[Qutiepie]

Hi ... leonmarino


I need to reiterate this,Cantonese-Chinese people read those Cantonized-Kanji in Cantonese dialect and only readable and fully understandable in this Chinese tongue.


One point I must stress here,Cantonized-Kanji is a byproduct of cultural chauvinism of us Cantonese-Chinese,not history related or foreign influences.

 

[MrWabu]

I think I know what happened, I said Cantonese was Hong Kong Chinese. I could see how that could upset. I'm sorry I generalised, I didn't think I needed to go into quite as much detail as you clearly have done. I wrote my reply because leonmarino wrote "Cantonese is traditional Chinese" and I read the "traditional" as how most people think Mandarin is what all Chinese speak, so I just wanted to make the distinction. Now I re-read his post, I think he means "Cantonese uses traditional Chinese characters".

Back on topic...

There are a few characters used in Japan that don't seem to be kanji per se, but can be used in place of kanji in certain situations. I know that 〆 is sometimes used in plase of 締 in 締切 (〆切), and I know that there's an abbreviated version of 第 that looks kind of like ヤ

Do the "ヶ" in "六ヶ月" and "々" in 時々 belong in this group?

 

[leonmarino]

Do the "ヶ" in "六ヶ月" and "々" in 時々 belong in this group?

I always thought ヶ was a katakana.. I don't know about 々 though.

 

[JimmySeal]

The problem, MrWabu, is that Cantonese and Mandarin have no direct connection to traditional or simplified kanji. People who speak Cantonese in China use simplified characters, just like everyone else in China. People who speak Cantonese in Hong Kong use traditional characters, though I have seen some DVDs from Hong Kong start to use simplified characters, perhaps because Hong Kong recently came under Chinese rule again.

so its possible that because of British colonial rule, they may have more English loan words than traditional Chinese (which would be Mandarin).

"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme. Mandarin is simply a dialect that has been used by government officials for a long time. It's not any older than Cantonese.

The ヶ in 六ヶ月 is a simlification of 箇, and it's occasionally used in other situations (like 三ヶ所). So yes, I'd say that ヶ and 々 fit in that group.

 

[MrWabu]

"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme

Yeah... but when I said it, I meant Mandarin, not the characters... I can see why you got confused.

The only other character I can think of that would fit in the not-quite-kanji-but-not-kana group is maybe "ゝ". I've seen it before, but I don't know how its used.

 

[qianyuxuan]

The problem, MrWabu, is that Cantonese and Mandarin have no direct connection to traditional or simplified kanji. People who speak Cantonese in China use simplified characters, just like everyone else in China. People who speak Cantonese in Hong Kong use traditional characters, though I have seen some DVDs from Hong Kong start to use simplified characters, perhaps because Hong Kong recently came under Chinese rule again.
"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme. Mandarin is simply a dialect that has been used by government officials for a long time. It's not any older than Cantonese.
The ヶ in 六ヶ月 is a simlification of 箇, and it's occasionally used in other situations (like 三ヶ所). So yes, I'd say that ヶ and 々 fit in that group.

Allow me to point this out.
Mandarin is not dialect, but the standard language in China. In China, it is refer to as 'Putonghua', meaning the' common speech' or the 'common language'.

 

[twinklestar]

Mandarin is a northern Chinese dialect.



Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia

 

[leonmarino]

Sorry to interrupt you guys but I just wanted to post this link to a very good Kanji site!! It shows you the order of strokes of many Kanji..
I actually needed it when I was practising 「春」. Somehow it seems more natural to me to set two horizontal strokes, then the two diagonal ones, and then the last horizontal stroke.. But apparantly that's wrong!! I find it easier my way, because the two diagonal meet at the same height as the second horizontal stroke. Not only do I find it easier, but the 春 my way definitely looks better than when I do the three horizontal ones followed by the diagonals..
What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）, the order of writing the Kanji? The alphabet we have is too easy to invent such system for, but it is necessary for complicated characters like Kanji.. Or do you think otherwise? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji?

 

[twinklestar]

「春」 Somehow it seems more natural to me to set two horizontal strokes, then the two diagonal ones, and then the last horizontal stroke.. But apparantly that's wrong !!

What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）,the order of writing the Kanji ? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji ?

I speak on behalf of how Chinese are taught in writing Kanji,up down and left to right.We stick with the standardization,a few semi-illiterates might write Kanji improperly.


For the Chinese character Spring,we typically write the 3 horizontal strokes first then vertical strokes left to right and add Kanji for day to the bottom in completing the word.

 

[Lance]

Arigatou

Thank you, yorkii! You're a good help! This is a very helpful site! Arigatou gozaimasu! Zenzen arimasen, ne?
Mou ichido...
Arigatou!

 

[MrWabu]

What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）, the order of writing the Kanji? The alphabet we have is too easy to invent such system for, but it is necessary for complicated characters like Kanji.. Or do you think otherwise? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji?

There are stroke orders for the alphabet we use, just not widely used past learning the characters in the first place. The Japanese children I helped teach English to used a certain stroke order for alphabet letters and there were cards all around the classroom with them on.

Regarding Kanji, obviously the order is perceived to have much greater importance, but in reality? I've seen people write characters out of order quite frequently. The one I remember the most are characters such as 間. For this they have written the left side, then the middle then the right side. In this case, it is more of a speed issue than laziness I'm sure. Stroke orders aren't necessarily the fastest way to write characters.