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Should I delete Chinese women out of my life?

Muz1234

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There is no way I could learn Mandarin. I think even Japanese culture are more cleaner than Chinese, right? Some Chinese women are hot, and they look bit similar to Japanese, as all Asians.
 

bentenmusume

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Muz1234 said:
Should I delete Chinese women out of my life?

People have told you this time and again, so it probably won't make a difference hearing it from me, but before you worry about "deleting" certain types of women from your life, maybe you should "update" your "operating system" to one that's less misogynistic and bigoted.

In other words: women are human beings, and not every woman (or person) of a given ethnicity is the same. Until you realize this I don't expect you will ever have much luck with relationships.
 

Mark of Zorro

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People have told you this time and again, so it probably won't make a difference hearing it from me, but before you worry about "deleting" certain types of women from your life, maybe you should "update" your "operating system" to one that's less misogynistic and bigoted.

In other words: women are human beings, and not every woman (or person) of a given ethnicity is the same. Until you realize this I don't expect you will ever have much luck with relationships.

That whole post flies in the face of the fact that people you would call misogynists and bigots are more likely to be married and are outbreeding the groups whose norms you look more favorably on. Believe me I wish it were different but in time you may find, as I have, that women work hard to earn the misogyny they receive and no matter what they say, deep down, most of them don't appreciate people trying to take it away. Its a minority of women who would thrive without it, a minority I have come to resent for confusing me with all their belly-aching, book writing, and passing off their theories as true fact....as well as blaming men for all their problems and the problems of women in general...and spreading man hate even where its not justified.
 

bentenmusume

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For one thing, my post was only addressing the OP based upon his sentiments here and the sentiments he has posted before (check his post history). My intention was not to make sweeping generalizations or pass judgment about the entire human race.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of people out there who could be described as misogynistic or bigoted who have managed to find partners. I am not convinced that there are vastly greater numbers of them "breeding" than people with a mindset closer to my own (and am not sure this could ever even be proved one way or the other).

I'm not entirely sure what you're implying when you say that women "work hard to earn the misogyny they receive." While I respect your right to your opinion and have found a number of your arguments/perspectives (e.g. regarding the coronavirus and smoking) rather refreshing, I'm not particularly certain I want to debate you on this topic. You seem to have very strong opinions regarding women (and men) as a whole, and I don't feel entirely comfortable with a discussion framed in those terms.
 

Mark of Zorro

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maybe you should "update" your "operating system" to one that's less misogynistic and bigoted.

Surely this advice was based on your general feelings of how misogyny and bigotry affect men's chances of love generally?

I cannot imagine you thought feminist males have less luck and therefore advised the OP to lean more that direction.
 
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Mark of Zorro

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I am not convinced that there are vastly greater numbers of them "breeding" than people with a mindset closer to my own

That will depend greatly on how we choose to identify people with and without your mindset. The feminist liberal minded Scandinavians have low birthrates and so do White countries in general. Meanwhile those widely regarded as extremely patriarchal, African nations, India, China and also Muslims in general, have high birth rates. Only Israel is up there competing with them, but I bet its not the White Ashkenazi Jews responsible and certainly not the liberal ones.

 

Mark of Zorro

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I'm not particularly certain I want to debate you on this topic.

There is no real need. Just watch some youtube videos like this one and try and incorporate them into your worldview. I used to believe the same things you have said here. And it was tough to open my mind to some things like this even though they are right there in plain sight. But pro-abortion and pro-Trump women (and all sorts of conservative type women) have got to be accounted for somehow....and just saying "they are confused" does not seem to cut it.

 

bentenmusume

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My advice was based on the OP's history of asking for dating advice here, with questions regularly framed in terms of the ethnicity/nationality of the women he is attempting to win over.

I will be the first to admit that I don't look too kindly on people who pigeonhole all people of a certain group (be it gender, ethnicity, what-have-you) into certain stereotypes. I will also admit that yes, I think that people who treat others as human beings and with a certain degree of respect are more likely to find meaningful relationships. (Also, I never mentioned "feminism" here. I'm simply talking about treating other people, women included, with a certain degree of respect.)

If someone is just looking to knock a girl up and pass on their seed (again, I'm not trying to be judgmental here; it's not my goal but it may be someone else's), then they certainly don't need to look for advice on a message board.

Regarding your last point, again, this is why I'm not particularly comfortable wading into this discussion. One can talk about tendencies of given nationalities or cultures, but I don't feel entirely comfortable drawing a parallel between how "feminist" vs. "patriarchal" people in a society tend to be and that society's birthrate.
 

bentenmusume

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Sorry, I just noticed your last post.

I hope you don't take offense at this, but for someone who has gotten offended in the past when people put words in your mouth, you are making some assumptions about my "worldview" that I wish you would not. You seem to think I'm a certain kind of person who holds a certain complete set of views that you disagree with (though perhaps you used to believe differently). This is not the case, at least not to the extent you seem to think.

I am aware that there are many female Trump supporters and anti-abortion activists. In fact, I personally know some of them. I have never said they are "confused," nor do I doubt that they have their reasons, based upon their own experiences and thought processes, for believing as they do. I might (strongly) disagree with them, but I'm not going to make any assumptions about why they feel the way they do, much less suggest that they have no right to feel it.

My post toward the OP was simply my opinion (expressed somewhat snarkily, I grant you). If he chooses to disregard it and continue viewing women as he does, that's his prerogative.

edit: fixed some typos
 

Mark of Zorro

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My advice was based on the OP's history of asking for dating advice here, with questions regularly framed in terms of the ethnicity/nationality of the women he is attempting to win over.

If so, surely you can see that this is an inadequate basis to induce him to change into an opposite type of person. That opposite type needs to be clearly successful in order to suggest in good faith he become more of that type, but I simply don't see it.

That said, I can agree that if the OP is so very unsuccessful probably any change is better than none.
 

Mark of Zorro

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I hope you don't take offense at this, but for someone who has gotten offended in the past when people put words in your mouth, you are making some assumptions about my "worldview" that I wish you would not.

Sorry I just cannot rectify your advice with any other view. And since you don't really want to debate I feel left to my own devices to explain it.
 

Mark of Zorro

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In fact, I think if he goes around saying that "Japanese women are the best" among Japanese women, that could really score him some points even if is a bit racist, bigoted and misogynistic in a back-handed way.

Meanwhile, saying negative things about Chinese or other women will probably earn him negative points among women anywhere.

I guess in sum, saying positive things all the time might be the answer. Seems like a viable strategy to me considering all the really dense, hyper-positive guys I have seen that were successful with women.
 

Mark of Zorro

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In other words: women are human beings, and not every woman (or person) of a given ethnicity is the same. Until you realize this I don't expect you will ever have much luck with relationships.

As true as that is, there are odds to consider. I mean, you might find a diamond while wandering the beaches of Namibia, but if you really want a diamond I advise going to a jewelry shop.
 

bentenmusume

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Are you suggesting that you're more likely to find diamonds among women of certain ethnicities than others?

Anyhow, I'm not trying to insult you or be confrontational. (Like I said, I actually do genuinely respect your opinions on many of the topics discussed here.) I do find it a bit curious that for someone who (in other threads) took extreme offense and umbrage at people misinterpreting even the slightest word you said, or presuming to assume anything about your intentions, that you feel comfortable drawing sweeping conclusions about my worldview. It strikes me as something of a double standard (don't judge me or assume anything about me, but I'm more than willing to judge and assume all sort of things about you and your opinions on feminism, female Trump supporters, etc. etc. based on a post or two you made), but perhaps I'm not being charitable enough in my assessment.

My initial response was intended for the OP, and yes, was based on my own perspective. If you think I was trying to espouse a position in the Great Battle of the Sexes, and by doing so rally everyone to my cause and shout down everyone who disagrees, I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, because I absolutely was not trying to do anything of the sort (and do not really have a horse in that race at all, so to speak). Rest assured that if the OP were a woman expressing similar sentiments about how all Japanese guys are like this, all Chinese guys are like that, or all 外人 guys are blah blah blah, I would have been equally quick to call them out for being superficial and bigoted in their views (and I do believe I've actually done so in the past with female posters who struck me as equally or more shallow than Mr. Muz; I have a low tolerance for superficial people who are prone to excessive stereotyping and pigeonholing; consider it a character flaw).

I'm not expecting or demanding that you or anyone see things my way. I'm just expressing my own perspective as I see fit based upon a general pattern of posts I saw from the OP. If he changes his tune, I may change my evaluation, and even if he doesn't, he's free to disregard my views and go on thinking as he does and living his own life. It's really no skin off my nose.
 
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Mark of Zorro

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Are you suggesting that you're more likely to find diamonds among women of certain ethnicities than others?

Absolutely. Saying otherwise is basically same as denying there even is ethnicity.

I do find it a bit curious that for someone who (in other threads) took extreme offense and umbrage at people misinterpreting even the slightest word you said

I think you must not have been following those threads very well. That was repeated intentional harassment I was receiving and/or repeated accidental misinterpretations...plus it spanned multiple threads. Sure I get mad easily, but not THAT easily.

And could we please dispense with this talking around my interpretation of what you said? If you don't like my interpretation then just explain why my interpretation is false.

I am not even completely sure what words you are saying I put in your mouth.

You said he should change his thinking to something less misogynistic and bigoted, yes? Does it not logically follow that you think being less misogynistic and bigoted increases a man's chances with women or not? And if it doesn't, then why have you suggested that change?
 

bentenmusume

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Mark of Zorro said:
Absolutely. Saying otherwise is basically same as denying there even is ethnicity.
Really? Does this apply to all qualities?

Denying that there are any differences at all between ethnic groups might be the same as denying the concept of ethnicity itself, but are you saying that denying the idea that [e.g. the women of] certain ethnicities are inherently superior to others is the same as denying the concept of ethnicity? Because that doesn't seem to follow logically for me.

I would grant that if you are looking for certain qualities in a woman you may be more likely to find them in one group than another, but equating women of a certain ethnicity (as a whole) with "a jewelry store" and those of another as equivalent to a mostly barren stretch of sand goes quite a bit further than I'm willing to go.

Mark of Zorro said:
If you don't like my interpretation then just explain why my interpretation is false.

I am not even completely sure what words you are saying I put in your mouth.
I feel like I've explained this already. You presumed to tell me what my what my worldview was based on two posts, and after I explicitly said that I was simply addressing the OP and not trying to make grand pronouncements about the human race at large. I'm continuing the discussion now partly out of a sense of morbid curiosity (and partly because I'm a masochist) but it really, really was not my intention to get into some huge debate about the merits of the feminist mindset vis-a-vis misogyny and patriarchy on a global scale. (I will elaborate upon this below.)

Mark of Zorro said:
You said he should change his thinking to something less misogynistic and bigoted, yes? Does it not logically follow that you think being less misogynistic and bigoted increases a man's chances with women or not? And if it doesn't, then why have you suggested that change?
The OP (by his own admission across multiple posts) does not appear to be having much luck with women. (In one post, he asked if there was "any difference" between anime girls and real girls, which--no offense--does not suggest a great familiarity with the latter.) Without being too mean about this, it does not strike me that his mindset has been particularly successful for him. In my experience, it is easier to form connections with other people (including, but not limited to women) when you treat them as actual living, breathing human beings and not stereotypes. This was the basis for my advice.

Am I personally a fan of misogynism and bigotry? No, I'm not. As I said above, I'm a firm believer in treating humans as individuals, and am not a fan of saying "(All) women are this" or "(All) Chinese/Japanese/etc. etc. people are that". That said, if the OP were the type of misogynistic bigot who was out there getting all the girls (or just the one girl) he wanted and was perfectly content, I would not be suggesting a change, because I wouldn't have the occasion to. That hypothetical person would be out there enjoying his life (at least whatever that means to him) and not asking for dating advice on a Japanese culture and language forum. I might personally find their mindset repugnant, but I would not be trying to change it, because clearly it would be working for them (and because in this hypothetical example, our paths would never cross in the first place).

So, to reiterate: I was not (and still am not) trying to wage a global war to win people over to my mindset. I was addressing the OP based on my own evaluations of what he has said here, and I believe it's my prerogative to do so.
 
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Mark of Zorro

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are you saying that denying the idea that [e.g. the women of] certain ethnicities are inherently superior to others is the same as denying the concept of ethnicity?

That is not what was said. What was said was that there was a greater chance of finding a good woman, not that an entire ethnicity was superior.

And I will further point out that this is about the view of an individual and not some objective judgment. Surely there will be a larger number of women in one ethnicity that are diamonds in the eyes of any man than in another ethnicity.

As a simple example, I wonder how you feel about the extreme practices of some tribes on Earth, such as the Ethiopians who stretch out their lips and put big round plates in there. Any chance you might find love among them?

In my experience, it is easier to form connections with other people (including, but not limited to women) when you treat them as actual living, breathing human beings and not stereotypes.

Treating people as objects or as stereotypes seems bit far off from simple misogyny and bigotry, don't you think? I am sure lots of misogynists hate women in general while at the same time being fully aware of their variety, life and humanity.

All that said, I think I can at least agree that given his level of misogyny and bigotry, being less so will probably help, and that was what you actually said earlier...."less misogynistic and bigoted" rather than not at all.
 

bentenmusume

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It seems we've basically reached an understanding.

Mark of Zorro said:
That is not what was said. What was said was that there was a greater chance of finding a good woman, not that an entire ethnicity was superior.

And I will further point out that this is about the view of an individual and not some objective judgment. Surely there will be a larger number of women in one ethnicity that are diamonds in the eyes of any man than in another ethnicity.

Okay, now that you've clarified this, I don't have a problem with your assertion. I (mis-)interpreted your initial comment as implying one was more likely to find a "good woman" (as defined by some objective standard) among certain ethnicities than others. (In my defense, I probably got this impression from the diamond analogy, as a diamond--at least in analogies, not at all talking about the real-world implications--typically represents a universally desirable thing.)

I would be the first to admit that everyone (myself included) has preferences, and that there is nothing wrong with going looking according to those preferences (while of course, ideally, recognizing and treating the individuals you meet in the process as individual human beings).

Mark of Zorro said:
Treating people as objects or as stereotypes seems bit far off from simple misogyny and bigotry, don't you think? I am sure lots of misogynists hate women in general while at the same time being fully aware of their variety, life and humanity.
Really? In my experience, reducing and pigeonholing a group to a certain set of (generally negative) qualities pretty much goes part and parcel with discrimination, bigotry, and so forth, no? I don't know too many bigots who say, e.g. "I'm fully aware that every Arab individual is a unique human being with their own life experiences and innate humanity. I still think they're all terrorists who we need to bomb off the face of the Earth."

That's an extreme example, but it strikes me that (1) recognizing the humanity and diversity of members of a certain group/race/etc. and (2) hating that group as a whole are somewhat anathema to each other. Not saying it's absolutely impossible for the twain to meet, but it doesn't strike me that it would be all that common.

Mark of Zorro said:
All that said, I think I can at least agree that given his level of misogyny and bigotry, being less so will probably help, and that was what you actually said earlier...."less misogynistic and bigoted" rather than not at all.
Thank you for acknowledging this. I'm glad we can agree on this basic point.
 

Mark of Zorro

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That's an extreme example, but it strikes me that (1) recognizing the humanity and diversity of members of a certain group/race/etc. and (2) hating that group as a whole are somewhat anathema to each other. Not saying it's absolutely impossible for the twain to meet, but it doesn't strike me that it would be all that common.

Oh, I am not going to deny the overlapping connection between misogyny and bigotry on one hand and stereotyping on the other. It was just too much of a leap for me to make without more explanation because while bigotry and misogyny are necessarily negative, stereotyping can be positive and Muz1234 does seem to do positive stereotypes as well.

I have been something of a misandrist since childhood for several reasons such as an absent father, an abusive step-father and being raised by women who were strong and responsible but also often very down on men. But my adult experience and also reflection especially on what my female family members DID NOT SAY has changed my mind a great deal, and so I have become as much a misogynist as a misandrist. That can be over-simplified where people think I just hate everyone now, but its not that simple. The thing is, its MOST men and women that annoy me with their gender garbage, not all. In fact, I believe the best humans among us are a small minority of women. And there is also a small but larger minority of men I also greatly respect and admire. But the majority of men and women do annoy me with so many rueful thoughts and actions that seem to be arising from some basis of their gender rather than a fair and reasoned analysis.

An example from the women's side is the recent discovery (part of the Pinocchio Effect) that women tend to lie automatically about their state of sexual arousal in a way that hides or downplays being aroused. That is singularly annoying and unhelpful and there are many ways it bleeds over into women hiding other things through lying and they seem to think its some sort of virtue to hand us such lies. It explains a lot of men's annoyance with women through the centuries.

Men`s general love of war and violence are more commonly known and accepted as reasons to hate them and they are certainly high on my list. I even hate myself for this.
 

bentenmusume

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Mark of Zorro said:
It was just too much of a leap for me to make without more explanation because while bigotry and misogyny are necessarily negative, stereotyping can be positive and Muz1234 does seem to do positive stereotypes as well.
I didn't mean to suggest that all of his stereotypes are negative, but the comment about cleanliness in the OP erred a bit too close to bigotry for my liking.

Also, this is a separate discussion, but I'm personally of the opinion that even "positive" stereotypes can potentially do a lot of damage (which is why I try my best to avoid stereotyping as a whole). Operating under a general assumption that (just to cite some common "positive" stereotypes) e.g. Japanese people are polite/reserved/shy, foreigners are outgoing/individualistic/opinionated, Asians are good at STEM subjects, black people are good at sports, etc. etc. and so on and so forth, can lead to misunderstandings and/or be hurtful/harmful/unfair to those individuals who don't necessarily share those assumed traits.
 

nice gaijin

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...if the OP were the type of misogynistic bigot who was out there getting all the girls (or just the one girl) he wanted and was perfectly content, I would not be suggesting a change, because I wouldn't have the occasion to. That hypothetical person would be out there enjoying his life (at least whatever that means to him) and not asking for dating advice on a Japanese culture and language forum. I might personally find their mindset repugnant, but I would not be trying to change it, because clearly it would be working for them (and because in this hypothetical example, our paths would never cross in the first place).
Oooh, we already had this guy on the board. I'd forgotten about ghettocities!
 

Mark of Zorro

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Also, this is a separate discussion, but I'm personally of the opinion that even "positive" stereotypes can potentially do a lot of damage

I understand and appreciate the opinion as I used to think so myself. But if you ask me, the human mind is much too lacking in processing power to deal with topics like this in any other way...which explains why we do it.

The main problem I see is when stereotypes are applied in an absolutist sense with no room to accept individuals that don't fit it. In fact, I think some stereotypes are true and useful just as long as they are recognized as being generally true or even true for significant minorities.

A secondary problem is presumption of the underlying reasons why a stereotype is true. The big one is believing its because of DNA when in fact its usually because of culture.

And I suppose a sub-problem of the secondary problem is when people ASSUME someone accuses another person of being a racist for believing a stereotype, accusing that person of believing the stereotype is true because of DNA, when that isn't true at all. And its often difficult for the accused to even realize what just happened.

They are off topic examples but they tie this all together: I believe the stereotypes that most Chinese people are crazy for pigs feet and most (American) Black people are crazy about chicken and watermelon. But I think its a product of culture and I have seen it with my own eyes. But hey, most White Americans sure are crazy about guns aren't they? I see no harm unless people are going take all that too far. And if they do, the problem was not the stereotype.

But hey, its not necessary to take any of this as negative, and I don't think it has to become negative regardless. I just see it as partly true information and treat it as such and hey, the world would be boring without such variety anyway. And frankly, as someone who got no female love in America and no happiness, but plenty of both in Japan, I am a true believer that there may be an ethnicity where the stereotypes are not only true but more suited to even an individual from a separate ethnicity. Even some ethnicities may be more suited to dating with a separate ethnicity!

So, the stereotype that Japanese women are not so uptight about sex compared to White American women....I believe it. If some men thrive around White American women, great. I don't, so I am here in Japan. If people would leave it at that everything would be fine. But there is always some jerk who has to try and put some negative stereotype on me for not being able to find love and romance in America. They can't just accept me as a guy that finds White American woman disagreeable. They have to claim I have some sort of defect...even though I can easily do the same for them for liking White American women.
 
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