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Religious Belief-systems 101

Ok...the torah. According to the documents, it is the law that had been given to the descendents of Israel. It was a way of behaving and living. Whether there had ever been an oral law at that time is totally lacking in record, so one can only guess.

Here is one similarity between Judaism and Islam. Christianity, as given through the documents that we do have (and not all of them are in the New Testament) evidence a 'code of conduct' but part of that seems to be based on a matter of conscience--within a given range there is some flexibilty to act based on ones conscience. Otherwise, Christianity has no law.

How much, or what areas is freedom of conscience within a certain limit given in the Mosaic Law or the Sharia (sp?)?
 
Thank you Pugtm and Scorpion. I knew it was something to do with Jesus.
As Derfel pointed out there where different sects of Christianity that did not see Jesus as the personification of God. It has to do with the phrase "Son of God". It seems that it was taken at face value, especially by Paul of Tarsus, instead of the view others took that all humans are sons or daughter of God. After all doesn't the term Our Father seems to be used a lot.
As for Pagan roots, both Islam and Judaism have their own pagan roots that can be found in scripture. The best example of that within Islam is the name Muslims give to God, Allah. It is a name that pre-dates Islam and is the name given to a pre-Islamic deity that Muhammad used to identify with the God of Christians and Jews. The original Allah had three daughters; Allat, Manat and al-Uzza, whose worship gave rise to the mythical Satanic verses.
The roots of pagan belief in Judasim can be found in one of the most known stories that is in all three faiths and that is Noah and the flood. The myth pre-dates Judasim and is Akkadian/Sumerian in origin and found in the Epic of Gilgamesh (Recommended reading for people interested in myth).

please take notice that the word Allah is not a name...
so it is not a name carried on from pagan times.
Allah is a word that means God..
in Islam we don't name God , we just call him in his ambiguous identity as Allah-God.
to make it clearer, Arab Christians and Jews call God:Allah,
Allah means God, it is not a name defining God, it means God in Arabic.
so Arabs both before and after Islam call God Allah.

but you are right , there is many things that are carried by Islam from paganism.
but also take notice that Arab paganism is originally paganism based on prophet Abraham's teachings as he and his son Ismael are the fathers of Arabs. Muslims believe that Arabs deviated the true teachings and twisted them to suit their interests. and as Islam was found, prophet Mohamed kept the practices that he said are truly carried out from Abraham's teachings and discarded practices that were not related to true Abraham teachings.

example on these practices, in Hajj the prayer walk between the Safa and Marwa..
the calender based on the Lunar year where month Ramadan is defined for fasting.

also take notice that prophet Mohamed adopted some Jewish practices ..
like in the date that Muses and the people of Israel crossed the Red sea, Jews fast. and so Muslims did so as well, since they consider Muses as their prophet as well, and believe that he is a true Allah's messenger.
 
Ok...the torah. According to the documents, it is the law that had been given to the descendents of Israel. It was a way of behaving and living. Whether there had ever been an oral law at that time is totally lacking in record, so one can only guess.
Here is one similarity between Judaism and Islam. Christianity, as given through the documents that we do have (and not all of them are in the New Testament) evidence a 'code of conduct' but part of that seems to be based on a matter of conscience--within a given range there is some flexibilty to act based on ones conscience. Otherwise, Christianity has no law.
How much, or what areas is freedom of conscience within a certain limit given in the Mosaic Law or the Sharia (sp?)?

dear mars man i will answer you in the areas of my knowledge.

as for shari'a:
well some rules are not able to be changed, meaning that a person will have to obey them in any time and place ,disregarding whet ever changes.
and some rules are bendable meaning it can be re-edited to fit the modern life and changes in the way of life between different eras and places.
and some rules are just oral code of conduct, as in polite tradition,
and that can be changed.
 
Lets just say most of christendom, but not all. Arianism for example was not trinitarian. So they simply considered Jesus as someone who was created, and has no unity with God and the Holy Spirit, although they consider Jesus a divine being. And this isn't a fresh view either, Arianism was around at the Nicaean synod. Basically it was the faith of goths. Theodosius comes to mind.

yes i am aware of that.
some groups and religious sects have similar views about God as Islam.
as the one and that has no partner in the supreme position.

a sect that is called Sabi'a are more ancient than Arabs. they call them selves the followers of prophets recognized in Islam. as Idris, Yunis...etc

they have many similarities with Islam like pre-wash before prayers , preying three times a day ( we do so five) ..
fasting ..etc
 
scorpion da black said:
please take notice that the word Allah is not a name...
so it is not a name carried on from pagan times.
You are not the first Muslim I have encountered on the forum who has said this. To set the record straight origins on the name Allah.
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/islamic/articles.html said:
The exclusive monotheistic deity in Islam. The name is derived from 'al-ilah', which literally means "the god". The Prophet Muhammad declared Allah the one and only god (of the Islam) in the 7th century CE.
In pre-Islamic times, Allah was the supreme creator-god of the Arabs. The goddesses Allat, Manat, and al-Uzza were considered to be his daughters.
(bold mine)
Also see:
ALLAH, the Moon God It is a Christian site though and they have a tendency to view Islam with contempt, but the article ahs some interesting points.
Origins of Islam For a more balanced view
Islam's God: The Origin of Allah the Moon God. Another fair point.
The problem with searching for info is that it does throw up a lot of pro-muslim sites and anit muslims sites (read christian evangelism)
 
in hebrew and arabic the name is very close

in hebrew you say god by the name "aluhim"--or by the name "aluhha"
in arabic you say "alla"-this is very close name-if you say those word then you can see this is the same one-but have a little change.
maybe the arab get that name from someone that gave the name at the arab since he was hearing this before.
icarus5
 
also take notice that prophet Mohamed adopted some Jewish practices ..
like in the date that Muses and the people of Israel crossed the Red sea, Jews fast. and so Muslims did so as well, since they consider Muses as their prophet as well, and believe that he is a true Allah's messenger.
we actually have a celebration on that day not fasting...
 
in hebrew you say god by the name "aluhim"--or by the name "aluhha"
in arabic you say "alla"-this is very close name-if you say those word then you can see this is the same one-but have a little change.
maybe the arab get that name from someone that gave the name at the arab since he was hearing this before.
icarus5

yes Hebrew and Arabic are so similar also eastern Christian language( i don't know what it is called in English we call it seryeni).
they have similar words and grammar and they are the only languages written from right to left.
Allah ...and Alluhim are used in Arabic..Alluhim is when some one is praying as in talking to God...
many words sound the same due to same origin like shalom/ salam.

You are not the first Muslim I have encountered on the forum who has said this. To set the record straight origins on the name Allah.
(bold mine)
Also see:
ALLAH, the Moon God It is a Christian site though and they have a tendency to view Islam with contempt, but the article ahs some interesting points.
Origins of Islam For a more balanced view
Islam's God: The Origin of Allah the Moon God. Another fair point.
The problem with searching for info is that it does throw up a lot of pro-muslim sites and anit muslims sites (read christian evangelism)


i did give you examples about similarities with pagan and Islamic practices with explanation in case you want to make clear some faulty translations to Islam...reread what i wrote previously :)
 
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dear mars man i will answer you in the areas of my knowledge.
as for shari'a:
well some rules are not able to be changed, meaning that a person will have to obey them in any time and place ,disregarding whet ever changes.
and some rules are bendable meaning it can be re-edited to fit the modern life and changes in the way of life between different eras and places.
and some rules are just oral code of conduct, as in polite tradition,
and that can be changed.


Thanks for that scorpion da black san. I'd hope to take at look at it in some detail. Before that, however, I wonder what explanations there may be among Muslem scholarship for Islam's not adopting the Mosaic Law while considering Moses a true prophet of Abraham's god?

After that, I'd hope to look at some detailed comparisons of the two law systems.
 
Thanks for that scorpion da black san. I'd hope to take at look at it in some detail. Before that, however, I wonder what explanations there may be among Muslem scholarship for Islam's not adopting the Mosaic Law while considering Moses a true prophet of Abraham's god?
After that, I'd hope to look at some detailed comparisons of the two law systems.

well in a short statement i can say: since prophet Mohamed was the last prophet as we believe, he came to finalize the religion of God.
we consider the religion of God is the same ever since the beginning of time, Muses, Jesus, and all the other prophets came with the same message. it was people who deviated from the right track and made various religions ...
so prophet Mohamed came with the final full version of the religion all prophets came with...Islam.

as for the differences that are found between the Muses law and the Islamic law..we believe it is because of changes people made to the original texts that were really sent to Muses from God.

as every one knows there is 12 bibles, 4 of which the church believes in. e believe that these texts were rewritten unlike what they originally were, otherwise, why the large numbers of bibles?

so we believe that the original Muses text and the Islamic text is the same...
and people made the changes.
 
Thank you for that response, scorpian da black san, I appreciate it.

So maybe we could think that Mohammed's hearing was more to 'correct' the text rather than 'finalize' it?

I'm not familiar with these 12 bibles, could you please explain that, and provide a list, if you know of it? I'd like to try to check those out.

Is there any evidence in the line of textual discoveries that would seem to support the view that the texts were rewritten, and about what time frame to you think Muslem scholarship gives for that?

We do have texts in both Hebrew, and Aramaic from the Quram caves which give evidence for different textual exemplars in the Jewish corpus. Is that what you think the scholars may be speaking of?
 
Thank you for that response, scorpian da black san, I appreciate it.
So maybe we could think that Mohammed's hearing was more to 'correct' the text rather than 'finalize' it?
I'm not familiar with these 12 bibles, could you please explain that, and provide a list, if you know of it? I'd like to try to check those out.
Is there any evidence in the line of textual discoveries that would seem to support the view that the texts were rewritten, and about what time frame to you think Muslem scholarship gives for that?
We do have texts in both Hebrew, and Aramaic from the Quram caves which give evidence for different textual exemplars in the Jewish corpus. Is that what you think the scholars may be speaking of?

thinking logically ...most of the Bibles that the catholic church adopts were written 200 years after the death of Christ ...that is why we believe in that time period ...the text might have drifted from its original context.
the Quran was written right away and memorized by 3000 companions on the prophet ...and the these numbers tripled the first 5 years after the death of prophet Mohamed ...

few Bibles i have read from which the church don't adopt were found written in Hebrew in Egypt ...

-the Bible of Mary
-the Brnaba Bible

i didn't have the chance to actually collect or read the other Bibles.

and even with the Bibles that the church adopts you can find great difference in the content ...my mind is to weary to give examples...but i can tell you to compare the Bible of Paul and Mathew for example...
and you can find that each one has written his Bible as he remembers it not as it actually was..

and about prophet Mohamed..as we believe; yes he was sent by God to correct old texts and to finalize the religion...as we believe that there were missing points that had to be fixed.

i am glad to be at help mars man san
as a matter of fact i enjoy conversing with everyone here :)
 
for me it is still this...

When writing anything the person who is doing the writing automatically is biased. The words we choose to the manner in which we place those words and phrases. They all went through someone's brain and thought process. I don't believe there is a single formal religion that is free from bias, and bigotry. They all claim to be the "one". They are all flawed because people are not perfect.
 
I see scorpion da black san, when you were using the word 'bible' you meant 'document' or 'work' or 'writing' or, even, 'book.' I understand now. The earliest exemplars of the Christian writings, however, both Greek and Aramaic (or in a few cases, possibly Hebrew, Syric, Coptic and Arabic) fall within the first century for the most part, with only that of 2nd Peter and the gospel narrative ascribed to John (which, of course, had evidently had more than one hand involved...possibly three).

There is evidence, as you have pointed out, that copyists did alter the texts at places, and there is reason to believe that even the basic texts which were recieved had been altered from an original in at least two cases for the gospel accounts, and then some for the letters from Paul.

However here, I am more interested in the differences and likes--for now--between the Mosaic Law and the Shari'a. What laws are there on the treatment of animals, for example?

Goldiegirl chan, you do have some valid points there. At the same time, as cultural history is so tied in with the religious belief-systems of old, and since much can be learned about how we got here (in a broad sense of knowledge norms) from there, exercise in attempting to understand the mind and intent of the original authors as a member of that socio-culture within in which they wrote, can help us in weeding out faults in general misinformation that still lingers today...in the face of more accuate knowledge. Thus, the mental exercise goes on !
 
to list some examples from the Muses law and from the shari'a:

for example in the Muses law it is listed: " you shall not desire some one else's women "
in sharia : " you shall not desire any women unless you intend to marry the desired "

as for: "thou shall not kill, steel...etc it is the same, but the penalty is a little bit harsher in sharia law."

about animals:we are not aloud to hunt for fun, as in many sports done , we only hunt for food.hurting any animal for any reason other than food is a sin. a man riding a horse shall not drink before allowing his horse to do so first.
as for the Muses law, it doesn't state whether it is allowed to hunt for pleasure or not, it just states that animals should be treated kindly.

and we have some laws which are copied literally like " who kills a self, is as if he killed all mankind"
 
Thank you for that information, scorpion da black san. The law on hunting sounds very realistic. I'll check some of the others, and ask some more questions later.

For now, you mentioned 'copied literally' does that mean from the Mosaic Law? or do you mean written exactly as is translated? Thanks.
 
to list some examples from the Muses law and from the shari'a:

for example in the Muses law it is listed: " you shall not desire some one else's women "
in sharia : " you shall not desire any women unless you intend to marry the desired "

as for: "thou shall not kill, steel...etc it is the same, but the penalty is a little bit harsher in sharia law."

about animals:we are not aloud to hunt for fun, as in many sports done , we only hunt for food.hurting any animal for any reason other than food is a sin. a man riding a horse shall not drink before allowing his horse to do so first.
as for the Muses law, it doesn't state whether it is allowed to hunt for pleasure or not, it just states that animals should be treated kindly.

and we have some laws which are copied literally like " who kills a self, is as if he killed all mankind"
except for the marriage law all of those we have some form of. though i read that in islam you can set a time limit for your marriage. like get married for a day or a few hours and in saudi arabia and iran its become a legal form of prostitution.
 
Does religion play a part in the reasoning as to why women aren't allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia? I watched a show, and it could have been wrong, but it said there was a problem when they went to Saudi Arabia because the one woman producer was not allowed to drive. I just wanted to know if that is true and if it's based on religion?
 
yes and it is a semi-religous reason more cultural but thats connected. its just how they treat women down there. a rape victim was just sentenced to around 200 lashes and jail time. google saudi rape victim
 
Yes, Goldiegirl, that is true. I have a couple of articles on that. One is really interesting, it's about the first woman pilot in Saudia Arabia. A male has to drive her to work, but once in the plane, the sky's the limit...she flys professionally for some airline there.

I'm not sure about just to what degree the Islamic belief-system has played a role in that, but would tend more so to argue that it's a conception left over from before the sixth century CE...it's surely a patriachal society thing, and which had carried over with Christianity (among other belief-systems) into Europe and the Americas (in and among 'Caucasian' groups at least) and only in the last 50 years has slowly been corrected.

I would like to look more at some of those laws, pugtm san...although I may have to wait until the end of this month to do so. I would think here, however, that we'd have to go by the Torah more so than by the Talmud...but I'm of the understanding that the Islam clerics also have their 'Talmud' (of sorts to)...if I'm not mistaken there.
 
except for the marriage law all of those we have some form of. though i read that in islam you can set a time limit for your marriage. like get married for a day or a few hours and in saudi arabia and iran its become a legal form of prostitution.

well about marriage that is untrue when talking about Islam as it was first sent out by God ( Sunni Islam )...
but there is some sects in Islam that allows that ...some Shiite Muslims sects called Isma'ils and Jaafaries...who allow such marriages.
and it is a matter that sparks a lot of flaming between Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims.

Does religion play a part in the reasoning as to why women aren't allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia? I watched a show, and it could have been wrong, but it said there was a problem when they went to Saudi Arabia because the one woman producer was not allowed to drive. I just wanted to know if that is true and if it's based on religion?

as sad as it sounds, some fanatic preachers in Saudi Arabia who are extremists who adopt an extreme school of Islam called Wahabi passed this rule to the king who is surrounded by all these kind of preachers so he accepted.

it has no strait rule in Islam...the preachers prove their point through pointing out that women are vulnerable to abuse and might not be safe driving alone...and women in old days never rode horses and traveled by them selves but always had a companion from their family with them.
 
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i don't accept with the benighted to talk about Islam in this way...
you still little to talk about Islam ...
you must understand Islam before say anything ....
read about Islam here
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/
http://www.islamtoday.net/toislam/toislam.cfm?toislam=1
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/
read it and reply again .......

Oh Carlos my friend, I know plenty about Islam.
Enough to see that it has a lot of trouble peacefully coexisting with other religions. Look at the conflicts in Sudan, Indonesia, Phillipines (sp), and so on. At its heart, Islam is intolerant and insecure. When Islam is the majority, all other religions are reduced to second class status. Please feel free to define ther terms;
jizya
dhimmi
kaffir
haram
taqqiya
caliphate
najis
for those who may not know them.

* * * * * * * * * *

Let me make this a little more palatable for some. APologies for coming on strong sometimes...

In my opinion, there is a greater threat than the USA. This is in the form of religion, since it crosses borders and often takes over cultures as well.
An example would be....... Islam. It has an entire vocabulary dedicated to conquering and putting down other religions.

Shall we start with "kaffir"? This is a term used in Islam to describe non-Muslims. However, it is extremely prejudicial in meaning and is quite derogatory. The closest equivalent I can find is "goyim" in Hebrew. Not in the same class though.
 
Oh Carlos my friend, I know plenty about Islam.
Enough to see that it has a lot of trouble peacefully coexisting with other religions. Look at the conflicts in Sudan, Indonesia, Phillipines (sp), and so on. At its heart, Islam is intolerant and insecure. When Islam is the majority, all other religions are reduced to second class status. Please feel free to define ther terms;
jizya
dhimmi
kaffir
haram
taqqiya
caliphate
najis
for those who may not know them.


hi ,RegDunlap
i want to say that, the islam to confess the the two other religoins jew and crystian ,
and i see that from words that you write ' you do not know alot about islam ' and you may see only films or media

Islam is not a new religion, but the same truth that God revealed through all His
prophets to every people. For a fifth of the world's population, Islam is both a religion
and a complete way of life. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and
forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events
which have come to be associated with their faith

if you want to talk about peace you can read reports about crimes , divorce ,steeling , and extortion
you will find that the islamic nations is the least at most , let us talk about numbers
 
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