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Why didn't the Japanese adopt a fully phonetic alphabet system?

Thanks for the tip. I enjoyed Bob Saget in Full House, but from the negative comments on the web, think I will stick to Fluffy. Now there's a comedian who can do sounds!
Incidentally, sounds are what language is made of, Not writing systems. But when the two are so divergent as the sounds of Japanese and the Kana orthographies, you should be able to see that kana cannot adequately represent the range of those sounds. Once again, it must have been very convenient back in the Heian Period, but it is sadly inadequate now. Unless and until you recognise that, you and your forum mates will be missing out on a lot of what is actually happening in spoken Japanese. And it will be a mistake to rely on the writings of Japanese nationals, unless they are those rare birds who happen to be trilingual at least. I'm sure that they exist, however: Japanese nationals with a really good ear for what is happening in their own spoken language. One such was a student of mine, another is a young Sophia graduate who taught herself English in Japan – of course using all kinds of media including songs – and who is really quite brilliant. I do feel that it is people such as these who will have a future influence on the transcription of spoken Japanese. So I and my Ohio State colleague will look forward to the point in time when digraphia becomes the rule rather than the exception. Who cares why most Japanese are stuck in their kana-majiri rut; let's look forward to the future! Yes, kana-majiri has its uses – as your moderator ably demonstrates. But it is surely not the only possibility...
Japanese phonology comprehensively explains everything you see as a deficiency in kana and puts it into perspective. I'd urge you to study that but apparently you know too much to make any space for learning: your cup is already full, which is a pity because there's a bottomless punch bowl of knowledge that you have yet to dip into.

There are legitimate complaints to be made about Japanese and maybe even improvements to address specific shortcomings, but your dream can't come true without completely warping the spoken language itself. Again, your aspirations don't seem motivated by a desire to make written Japanese easier for Japanese speakers, but to make it easier for people like you. Namely, you.

Though it demonstrates your intellectual cowardice, you can dodge my direct questions all you want, and continue to conjure up references to people we can't confirm as real... but I'll tell you who WILL have a future influence on the language: everyone who uses it. Like the millions of people who grew up primarily speaking some or several dialects of Japanese, or the millions of people in the Japanese diaspora who speak only with their parents or local community, or the language students that come ask their questions on this board, or my friends who grew up bilingual or trilingual in Japan and polyglots from Europe or Africa or Asia who can communicate and code switch effortlessly between languages. They all make their mark on the language they use, especially if the people around them pick up those same habits. Because language is a living, breathing morphology of vocabulary, grammar and syntax--both written and spoken--and it interacts with and changes with every person and other language that it touches. And you can't tell it what to do any more than you can tell millions or billions of people how they can or cannot use it.

Say, @S. MacObicin, why don't you write your Japanese responses in your romaji phonics to show us how superior they are? This thread is after all about the readability and ease of communication through written Japanese. I'm surprised you haven't just shown proof of your superior writing system by simply demonstrating it.
 
Rainy day, so perfect for this kind of mild entertainment.
"without completely warping the spoken language itself" is wide of the mark. what I am hoping to do is to represent the sounds of Japanese speech more faithfully than can be done using the kana syllabaries. E.g. ボクンチ(僕の家?) – In using the typically word-final nasal /N/ – does not represent the palatal /n/ that occurs in such environments. Here we also seem to have a CCCV string /ntʃi/ which kana cannot really represent. in modified heparin, this would be represented "bokun'chi", the apostrophe indicating that an o has been elided. this may be unnecessary, however.
We need to be careful about over-reliance on Japanese phoneticians. They tend not to have a very good ear; after all, the phonic material they grow up with is broadly Austronesian, and therefore quite limited. I used to find that my Japanese students could pronounce certain Mâori words perfectly well. But when it comes to any phonetically more complex language they are at a loss.
As noted somewhere above, the only way to overcome this deficit is to start learning English at a very early age. Using the alphabet to write it would greatly speed up the learning curve. (This is from my katakana book, which I find is being read quite widely even outside Japan – wish I knew quite how it's being accessed...)
 
what I am hoping to do is to represent the sounds of Japanese speech

This is the perspective that results when a blinder-wearing speech/sound focused linguist looks at writing. (Linguists are historically ducks-out-of-water when they step away from their little pond.)

The purpose of a writing system is to represent a language--not a sound system.

Yes, there are some hints at sounds, but in the interest of economy, they're just hints, since that's all that's necessary. (You'd probably be apoplectic over an abjad or abugida, let alone the already mentioned logo-/ideographic systems.)
 
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Rainy day, so perfect for this kind of mild entertainment.
"without completely warping the spoken language itself" is wide of the mark. what I am hoping to do is to represent the sounds of Japanese speech more faithfully than can be done using the kana syllabaries. E.g. ボクンチ(僕の家?) – In using the typically word-final nasal /N/ – does not represent the palatal /n/ that occurs in such environments. Here we also seem to have a CCCV string /ntʃi/ which kana cannot really represent. in modified heparin, this would be represented "bokun'chi", the apostrophe indicating that an o has been elided. this may be unnecessary, however.
We need to be careful about over-reliance on Japanese phoneticians. They tend not to have a very good ear; after all, the phonic material they grow up with is broadly Austronesian, and therefore quite limited. I used to find that my Japanese students could pronounce certain Mâori words perfectly well. But when it comes to any phonetically more complex language they are at a loss.

So, you want to restructure written Japanese because of a colloquial elision? I'm not so sure a native (switching back to this term, sorry not sorry) Japanese speaker would see 僕の家 and immediately read it as ボクンチ, though if someone hears ボクンチ it's immediately understood to mean one's home (and in the context of a casual conversation where such a contraction is common). That doesn't speak to a flaw, but rather a remarkable strength that kanji loans to the structure of the spoken language: so much so that grammar structures can be stripped down or even stripped away, and the context can still make the content understood. Phonology helps understand why these elisions happen, because humans make shortcuts according to our physiology.

I wonder, why would you balance your argument on such a poor example... Who would read 僕の家 as ボクノチ? NO ONE. Who would read it as ボクンイエ? Again, NO ONE. You actually need the elision to make ち an acceptable reading for 家, but your proposed solution is to eliminate kanji along with kana. This phrase would not exist if it weren't for the multiple readings of 家 and the peculiarities of stringing certain sounds together; in order to make this sound change make sense, you still have to teach the reasons behind it. How is this easier for someone to understand when you obscure the kanji behind a veil of romaji??

Not only is the moraic nasal ん not "typically" word-final, you transcribe ンチ as /ntʃi/... and then condescend about how Japanese phonologists have a bad ear?? Buddy, you can't even hear the difference between a postalveolar and palatal affricate. Hell, you can't even name your co-conspirators in your efforts to regress the written language. I studied under Mariko Kondo at Waseda, and she could produce and recognize sounds that I couldn't. There's no need for your racism; while the average layman, like the students you mentioned, may be trapped by the phonological constraints of their native language (which is the very cause of "foreign" accents in acquired languages), a well-trained phonologist can break free from the limitations of their mother tongue... if only the same could be said for linguists.

As noted somewhere above, the only way to overcome this deficit is to start learning English at a very early age. Using the alphabet to write it would greatly speed up the learning curve. (This is from my katakana book, which I find is being read quite widely even outside Japan – wish I knew quite how it's being accessed...)
And there it is: in order for Japanese speakers to use your modified system, they have to learn YOUR LANGUAGE first, or alongside it. 100% pure, fresh-squeezed patronizing colonizer mentality.
 
Bokunchi is a perfectly normal variant of the parent phrase. So you studied under some American woman at Waseda? Big deal. if she was Japanese, of course the name would be Kondô Mariko. or is this just a typically American mistake?
Mr Moderator, you have some very rude and disrespectful contributors on your forum. I don't see the need to waste any more time sparring with them.
As for racism, no-one could be less racist than myself. I don't see that anything I dictate makes me a racist. the ultimate racists are of course Americans. Whoever the perpetrator is, you would think that, having studied at Waseda, some respect for his elders would have rubbed off.

FYI, French is just as much my language as English. But the Japanese certainly spend (waste – as Reischauer suggested?) many years in unsuccessfully attempting to learn English. I was simply trying to say that it would enhance the sound production mechanism of Japanese people to study another language like English from a very early age. Of course it could be Russian, or French, or something else – as long as it has a more sophisticated sound system than Japanese. (土人の言語、日本語!) But of course in Japan, the second language had to be English. Unfortunately, not all Japanese people have such a dull ear – there are always the wonderful 5% who devote the time and effort to learning English, or another phonically more sophisticated language. These people often have a good ear for music also.
I would not for a moment say that Japanese is not a fascinating language in itself – but since WW II there has been an absolute tsunami of almost exclusively English borrowings. This is done partly from affectation, but also partly from necessity: The Japanese really can't handle their own language adequately any more without all the crutches. A more sophisticated ear would enable them to pronounce the borrowings accurately, but the sophistication needs to be acquired at a young age. The present Japanese government's policy is obviously inadequate. Result: the Japanese language, as currently practised, is a horrible mishmash. Even Mr Moderator is guilty, although most of his writing in Japanese is excellent.

The ultimate colonisers are Americans, surely. Has any other invading nation so completely wiped out the indigenous peoples of the continent? Of course Australia is not much better. Given that the invasion happened later, Aotearoa/New Zealand is a far happier example, being less racist than most countries – particularly the US.
 
Bokunchi is a perfectly normal variant of the parent phrase. So you studied under some American woman at Waseda? Big deal. if she was Japanese, of course the name would be Kondô Mariko. or is this just a typically American mistake?
If she was Japanese, LOL. I'd suggest you use a search engine to educate yourself but you might have trouble finding anything with that circumflex you insist on using. Do you refer to yourself surname first, since you're "de facto Japanese"?
Mr Moderator, you have some very rude and disrespectful contributors on your forum. I don't see the need to waste any more time sparring with them.
As for racism, no-one could be less racist than myself. I don't see that anything I dictate makes me a racist. the ultimate racists are of course Americans. Whoever the perpetrator is, you would think that, having studied at Waseda, some respect for his elders would have rubbed off.
Ahhhh yes, the old "no one is less racist than me" refrain. Where have I heard that one before? Oh yes, all the definitely racist folk who eschew introspection and cognitive reflection in favor of denial and bluster. Now you're just telling on yourself.

I visited 聖徳大学 once, but I guess none of that virtue rubbed off; I'm of the mind that if you presume to command respect, you'd better put forth some worthy ideas. I'm still waiting for you to do so.

FYI, French is just as much my language as English. But the Japanese certainly spend (waste – as Reischauer suggested?) many years in unsuccessfully attempting to learn English. I was simply trying to say that it would enhance the sound production mechanism of Japanese people to study another language like English from a very early age. Of course it could be Russian, or French, or something else – as long as it has a more sophisticated sound system than Japanese. (土人の言語、日本語!) But of course in Japan, the second language had to be English. Unfortunately, not all Japanese people have such a dull ear – there are always the wonderful 5% who devote the time and effort to learning English, or another phonically more sophisticated language. These people often have a good ear for music also.
I would not for a moment say that Japanese is not a fascinating language in itself – but since WW II there has been an absolute tsunami of almost exclusively English borrowings. This is done partly from affectation, but also partly from necessity: The Japanese really can't handle their own language adequately any more without all the crutches. A more sophisticated ear would enable them to pronounce the borrowings accurately, but the sophistication needs to be acquired at a young age. The present Japanese government's policy is obviously inadequate. Result: the Japanese language, as currently practised, is a horrible mishmash. Even Mr Moderator is guilty, although most of his writing in Japanese is excellent.

The ultimate colonisers are Americans, surely. Has any other invading nation so completely wiped out the indigenous peoples of the continent? Of course Australia is not much better. Given that the invasion happened later, Aotearoa/New Zealand is a far happier example, being less racist than most countries – particularly the US.
I make no excuses for America, but attacking my home country doesn't prove any of your points, or make you any less of a condescending imperialist.
 
Bokunchi is a perfectly normal variant of the parent phrase. So you studied under some American woman at Waseda? Big deal. if she was Japanese, of course the name would be Kondô Mariko. or is this just a typically American mistake?
Mr Moderator, you have some very rude and disrespectful contributors on your forum. I don't see the need to waste any more time sparring with them.
As for racism, no-one could be less racist than myself. I don't see that anything I dictate makes me a racist. the ultimate racists are of course Americans. Whoever the perpetrator is, you would think that, having studied at Waseda, some respect for his elders would have rubbed off.

FYI, French is just as much my language as English. But the Japanese certainly spend (waste – as Reischauer suggested?) many years in unsuccessfully attempting to learn English. I was simply trying to say that it would enhance the sound production mechanism of Japanese people to study another language like English from a very early age. Of course it could be Russian, or French, or something else – as long as it has a more sophisticated sound system than Japanese. (土人の言語、日本語!) But of course in Japan, the second language had to be English. Unfortunately, not all Japanese people have such a dull ear – there are always the wonderful 5% who devote the time and effort to learning English, or another phonically more sophisticated language. These people often have a good ear for music also.
I would not for a moment say that Japanese is not a fascinating language in itself – but since WW II there has been an absolute tsunami of almost exclusively English borrowings. This is done partly from affectation, but also partly from necessity: The Japanese really can't handle their own language adequately any more without all the crutches. A more sophisticated ear would enable them to pronounce the borrowings accurately, but the sophistication needs to be acquired at a young age. The present Japanese government's policy is obviously inadequate. Result: the Japanese language, as currently practised, is a horrible mishmash. Even Mr Moderator is guilty, although most of his writing in Japanese is excellent.

The ultimate colonisers are Americans, surely. Has any other invading nation so completely wiped out the indigenous peoples of the continent? Of course Australia is not much better. Given that the invasion happened later, Aotearoa/New Zealand is a far happier example, being less racist than most countries – particularly the US.
唾棄すべき程明白な差別意識をこれほど明瞭に自らの文体から溢出させておきながらなお差別主義者ではないと抗弁するというその姿勢は、他者の欠点をあげつらい嘲笑して貶めることでしか自らの優位性を証明できないという幼稚な精神性の故なのか、あるいは実際にその差別意識さえ自覚できないほど真に愚鈍なのかのいずれかなのでしょうが、どちらにしてもその日本語表記変更案の根底にあるものも言語の改善に寄与しようという建設的な改革意欲などでは結局なく、つまりは対象への敬意の欠片すら感じられないすえた腐臭を放つ盲目的な選民意識から来る独善に過ぎないというわけですね。自らが長年身を置く環境にさえ毒を吐かなければ済まないその攻撃性も、結局は能力の欠如に起因する周囲の不如意性と不適合の背反である防衛機制の帰結なのだとすれば悲しいほど哀れな話です。本当にお気の毒なほどに。

最後の投稿がいつになるのか今となっては冗談にさえならないほど繰り返し来訪なさっていますが、やめるやめると言いながらも続けざるを得ないほど事の本質を突かれて余程口惜しいのだろうと拝察します。何度指摘を受けようとも実例すら出せずに論をずらすしか打つ手がないとは、言うまでもなく余りにも非生産的な事です。かつて自ら言及されたこともある通り、せめてこの場に御説を明示することにより貢献されることを切に願います。罵倒することなどでは決してなく。
 
Jesus, what has this thread devolved into. A mini-celebrity waltzed into the party as well, and it looks like he's been enjoying himself playing with the resident experts.

Anyhoo; in my very-much-layman opinion, it looks like the Japanese have royally f*cked themselves with their writing style because of decisions past. It should have been rather obvious to anyone that a pictogram-based system is a ludicrous concept because of its inherently constrained scaling. What, are you going to make a little drawing for literally every conceivable object/ thought/ sound/ feeling/ emotion/ I could keep going all day, in the universe? Myopic.

So now, it's neither here nor there with their little hybrid kanji-kana thing they've got going on. Not to mention the homophones, holy ****, why can't they just make NEW WORDS *** :) Not enough phonemes? How is this a real language :D

Kanji may connote some fairly interesting spiritual/ philosophical connections, but are laughably abject from a pragmatic point of view.

Oh well, have no choice but to crawl thru the quagmire for that saccharine, almost holy -- RAW MANGA.
 
And yet, over a hundred million native speakers (and a much smaller number of proficient/fluent non-native speakers) manage to use the Japanese writing system to communicate every day with no problems to speak of.

(Or, at least, no more problems than, say, the ridiculous unintuitive and irregular spelling conventions of the English language.)

I have no idea what your Japanese level is, but your focus on "homophones" suggests to me that it's not anywhere near fluent/native level. Homophones are a relatively minor concern to any native or proficient speaker of Japanese, because there (1) aren't _actually_ as many of them as beginner/intermediate learners think there are, and (2) where they do come into play, the meaning is almost always clear from context (and when it isn't, the speaker will naturally just use a different turn of phrase to avoid confusion, like in any language).

volls said:
holy ****, why can't they just make NEW WORDS *** :) Not enough phonemes?

Um, yes, believe it or not, "they" do—by forming new kanji compounds, with kana, or by borrowing foreign words. Why are you under the impression that the current writing system would make it impossible to form new words?

I'm not saying there are _no_ arguments to be made for reforming the Japanese writing system (heck, here you can find the homepage of an NPO whose members advocate Japan adopting Romaji of all things and ditching kanji/kana entirely), but it will likely never happen, for three reasons:

1. The current system works just fine (and far, far better than outsiders with limited language proficiency think)
2. It's a lot of freaking work for an entire nation to completely overhaul their writing system
3. It would immediately create a break in that country's written history (if kids stopped learning kanji and kana, there would be literally centuries worth of written material that would eventually have to be revised/republished to be accessible to future generations).

Needless to say, #1 is the biggest reason. Given #1, it should be blindingly obvious that the downsides of #2 and #3 outweigh whatever benefits would be gained.
(Also, note that "spirituality" or whatever vague exotic reasons people are always so quick to ascribe to Japan isn't one of them.)

volls said:
How is this a real language :D
I imagine you're trying to be funny, but I should advise you that coming to a forum for Japanese culture and language enthusiasts (and one that also has some Japanese native speakers participating) and basically insulting and mocking the entire Japanese language isn't going to win you many friends here. There's nothing wrong with having a little debate, but this tone of "Ha ha, the Japanese (written) language is so broken and stupid!" probably isn't the best way to go about it.
 
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As a side note ,(for volls) asking location has been in the program for a long time. It was a great way to weed out probable spammers before they cause problems. Now days , with tons of host companies to hide true locations , not so useful. Unfortunately , changing the inner details of the workings of a program you purchase are not always possible.
 
What, are you going to make a little drawing for literally every conceivable object/ thought/ sound/ feeling/ emotion/ I could keep going all day, in the universe? Myopic.

Says the person who goes on to say

... just make NEW WORDS
(using capitalization and not new words for emphasis)

And then the screamer--immediately uses two modern, "little drawings"
*** :) Not enough phonemes? How is this a real language :D
Like they (or english) didn't have enough phonemes? How is that a 'real' language?!?
 
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