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Why? If you adher to some philosophy and try to find your path in life then that's good too isn't it? That's a perfect substitute for religion I think.. Why believe in supernatural powers or worship creators if you can find comfort in your inner self?
Oh? Sorry, I don't get that one.kohlrak said:We'll all eventually know who's right,..
Yes.kohlrak said:...but right now we all do need to learn how to co-exist.
Oh? Sorry, I don't get that one.
I think the function of belief is to get a harmonious soul.
I take all 3 comments as insults esp the one regarding Christianity.I am a Chinese and I have belief but have no religion belief.
From my point of view ,I have a word on the 3 major religions in the world:Buddhism,Christianism, and Moslemism. maybe I am not correct ,just say out...
If you want to rule people, you had better impose Buddhism;
If you want to invad others, you had better impose Christianism;
If you want to destroy all, you had better impose Moslemism;
Someone from California, talking about morals.A person from China complaining about religion...? This is official Chinese propoganda, and we need to stand up against it.
The Chinese Communists have thrown out all religion, and one result is that an entire generation of Chinese people are living without religious morals. The post above is the unfortunate result of that.
The Chinese government is also on the road to destroying the morals of the people.
That is no doubt true. However, I wonder where his high standard of morality comes from. And if the next person does not have a high standard of morality, you are stuck. There is nothing you can do or say about it is there? If there is no absolute standard of morality imposed from an eternal God, then in the end, it doesn't really matter how we live our lives. When we die there is no judgment. So some may choose to live what we would call "moral lives" from a religious viewpoint while others may choose to live a very immoral life. If there is no judgment when we die, if there is no God to bring moral justice to bear on humans after death, then outside of personal desire, there is no real reason to live a moral life. Some may choose to do so and others are just as free to choose not to do so. You cannot say that any one particular way of life is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. It is just a matter of personal opinion and choice.Just to let you know I'm an atheist.
Is living without religious morals really a bad thing? You don't need religion to live with a high standard of morals
This type of thinking that people do not behave morally without threat or reward from God sounds most scaring to more secularly oriented people. Does that mean that you would behave immorally if there was no God? If that was really true, then I would trust morals of atheists. After all, one could stop believing in God. When that day arrived, I would not want to be close to a religious person, if what you are saying was true.If there is no absolute standard of morality imposed from an eternal God, then in the end, it doesn't really matter how we live our lives.
As Mycernius pointed out, I also believe moral standards are shaped by society. They are not a matter of personal opinion. I like to live morally because I don't want to be branded as immoral by other members of the community where I belong.When we die there is no judgment. So some may choose to live what we would call "moral lives" from a religious viewpoint while others may choose to live a very immoral life. If there is no judgment when we die, if there is no God to bring moral justice to bear on humans after death, then outside of personal desire, there is no real reason to live a moral life. Some may choose to do so and others are just as free to choose not to do so. You cannot say that any one particular way of life is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. It is just a matter of personal opinion and choice.
Moral standards change as society evolves. Nobody said anything about slaving long time ago.In other words, an atheist cannot justify his ideas of morality. That means that Hitler's morality is no better or no worse than his. To say his morality is better would be a bit arrogant. Who is to say that the chemical processes in his brain are more accurate than the chemical processes in Hitler's brain that produced Hitler's brand of morality? Does might make right? Why or why not? When it comes down to it, we have to admit that there cannot be any ultimate right and wrong in an atheistic worldview.
Does it mean if atheists do not behave morally, it is testimony to the fact that God did not give us a conscience and that He did not write his laws on your hearts?The fact that many atheists still behave "morally" is testimony to the fact that God gave us a conscience and that He wrote His laws on our hearts.
I'm sure many conservative societies in the world will agree with your idea of what is moral or immoral.Now your idea of what is moral or immoral is probably different from my idea because I stick to what the Bible says. For instance, I believe that sex outside of marriage, pornography, and looking at women/men with lust is wrong. I believe that divorce is for the most part wrong. I believe that lying is wrong in almost all instances. I believe that getting drunk(not drinking per se) is wrong. I believe that self-promotion, selfishness, and self-centeredness is wrong, although I cannot say that I do not sin in this area.
Well, many christians commit crimes and become drug addicts, too. I don't think it has anything to do with believing in God.I really have no idea what I would be like if I didn't believe in God. We all have a natural tendancy to sin so if I hadn't grown up in a Christian family where my parents modelled God's love and taught me biblical morals, who knows where would I be now? I certainly wouldn't be here in Japan telling people about Jesus. I might be in jail for murder. Who knows? I might be an alcoholic or a drug addict. I might be a company president in the States. I simply cannot tell you how I would live my life if there was no God. If there was no God, my parents would not have experienced a relationship with Him, they would not have taught me that stuff.
I cannot prove that there is not god. You also cannot prove that there is god. So, it is futile to discuss it. I respect your belief, and I am....not an atheist.But at the same time, if there was some way that you could prove to me that there is no god, would I all of a suddenlive my life differently than I do now?
No. I don't want to speed and increase my chance of hitting someone, possibly killing. It has nothing to do with religion. I simply do not want to kill another person.It is the same principle as police and fines. If you know there are no police around, are you more likely to speed? Probably yes.
Sure, it is true.If you know they are there, are you more likely not to speed? Of course.
I don't think I'm a moral person. I'm an average person.You seem to think that you are a moral person, and take pride in that, but actually, I think you are an immoral person.
I agree.(no offense intended) Why? I bet you have broken every one of God's top ten laws. Even if you have not ever worshipped any genuine idols, I bet you have idols in your heart that you serve. Instead of worshipping God, you treat yourself and the things of this world as more important and valuable than Him. This is spiritual idolatry. I'm sure you have used God's name in vain at least once. You probably do not keep the Sabbath. You probably have disobeyed your parents numerous times and not honored them as God desires. You probably have really hated someone in your heart at some point, which Jesus said was the same as murder. You have probably lusted after a woman or man in your heart which Jesus says is adultery. You have probably lied many times and stolen at least one little thing in your lifetime. You have probably committed the sin of coveting things that others own. If so, you are guilty of breaking all of the top 10 commands of God.
I think I was talking who is more moral and who is less moral.Yet you think that you live a moral life? Not in God's eyes. No one does!(including me of course!) That is why Jesus came to die in our place. If we don't accept Jesus' death for us, then our sins remain unforgiven and we will be held responsible for them when we die. The bible says "The wages of sin is death." meaning spiritual death - eternal separation from God. A holy God who is a righteous Judge cannot just overlook sin. That would be sin for God and that is one thing He cannot do.
Hitler is an extreme case. I never said gassing people were considered moral back then in Germany. What happened to the slave example I gave? What about witch hunting? What about Crusades? Weren't them considered legitimate back then?What is considered moral in Seattle may not always be considered mral where I come from, but does that really change the fact of it being right or wrong? I doubt it. You wouldn't really want to say that it was moral for Hitler to gas all those people until he lost the war and then it suddenly became an immoral act in that society? No, I think there are absolute standards of morality that cross all cultures and eras.
It is not the matter of choice. Anthologists say conducts deemed inappropriate in a given society will receive sanctions from other members of the society. You do not have choice. People have to follow what others say, since nobody lives by himself. Without the help of the community one cannot live. So, any member of a society cares about how other members see him/her.You say that you want to live morally because you don't want to be branded as immoral by other members of the community. Great. I understand. It is a matter of like and dislike isn't it? If you happen to like to live that way, fine. But others don't give a ++++ about that.
I don't think it is wrong. It will simply make one's life harder to live. That is the reason I don't want to do things that other members of my community view immoral.SO IS IT WRONG FOR THEM TO LIVE THEIR LIFE THEIR WAY EVEN IF SOCIETY DISAPPROVES? That is what I want to know. This is the problem!
I never said the Christian world view is wrong. Indeed I follow the moral values based on the Bible, since world views that people have here in Seattle are largely based on the Christian view, I have no choice.You cannot call anything truly "right" or "wrong" in your worldview. Just better or worse, out of vogue, or in vogue, popular or unpopular. But you cannot borrow from the Christian world view and make a moral judgment and say something is atually right or wrong. That would be arrogant.
I dont think so. Even if there is no police officer around me, I would never desire to kill another human being. Simply because I do not prefer being killed, thus I do not want to inflect the same pain to others.And, if it is not actually wrong, as long as you are willing to ignore what some people think of you, what is to keep you from living an immoral life? If it is not right or wrong, ultimately, it doesn't really matter how you live. The only ramifications are getting caught by the cops, being looked down upon by some people, etc.
I agree with the fact God does not change and his standards do not change. However, people's interpretation of the Bible changes. For instance, people used to interpret the time recounted in the Bible literally to calculate how old the world is. After the advancement of science, that literal interpretation was abandoned.Yes, societal moral standards change, but God does not change and His standards do not change either. Murder is still a sin and will be forever no matter what society believes or what the laws say. Abortion is a good example of this. It is legal to kill an unborn person in the US, but it is murder in God's eyes. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is "moral".
Jesus fulfilled the OT law and we are told us that He freed us from the Law. So certain of the OT commandments are no longer applicable to us in this age. Some would accuse God of changing His standards, but the standards themselves did not change. As society changes certain laws are no longer necessary and new laws become necessary to deal wtih new situations. You have some of that in the Bible as well. Still the laws are based on the same moral principles.
Rather better than saying magic did it though. Science limits what we know because of what we can do. As technology advances than our experiments advance. 15 years ago the couldn't even take pictures of extra-solar planets. We can do that nowIt keeps getting harder and harder to explain it all by natural means.
Then, according to your arguments, no matter what atheists do, their moral and immoral behavior ends up verifying God's will. How about this explanation, then? God did not give us a conscience. But, since human beings are not robots. We humans are by some biological reasons can have a free will. When either atheists or believers choose to do what is wrong, they are considered evil by the other members of the community.TJ: The fact that many atheists still behave "morally" is testimony to the fact that God gave us a conscience and that He wrote His laws on our hearts.
G reply: Does it mean if atheists do not behave morally, it is testimony to the fact that God did not give us a conscience and that He did not write his laws on your hearts?
TJ reply: Good point. No, the reason is that we are not robots. God gave us a free will. We are responsible to choose to do what is right, but we do have the freedom to choose whatever we want. When either atheists or believers choose to do what is wrong, they violate their conscience and sin against God and their fellow man.
So, you agree that conscience is something modified by people.What if an atheist doesn't think something is wrong? Of course, then he is not violating his conscience. Generally accepted morals have changed and so some people no longer feel certain things are wrong when in actuality they are. It is still a sin, but not a wilful sin at that point.
Plus, you violate your conscience so much that pretty soon what you used to think was absolutely wrong doesn't bother you any more.
Isn't that why we have civil laws?And what is moral for me might not be moral for you doesn't work either does it? That might work as far as what TV programs to watch, but what about when it comes to how we treat our fellow man? One thinks it is OK to steal and one doesn't. However if he steals from me, I'm not going to be very happy about it.
So, are you saying if you don't have religion, people do not have demands as to what kinds of life they want to live? That's crazy. Didn't you also say God gives conscience everyone? Then, I don't understand why believers feel more difficult.G reply: Well, many christians commit crimes and become drug addicts, too. I don't think it has anything to do with believing in God.
TJ reply: Good point. You are right of course. The point is though that when they do that, they know they are violating the law of God and must give account to Him. For an atheist to do that requires no such decision to commit a sin. For him, there is no such thing as sin. His worldview makes no demands on him as to what kind of a life to live. He is totally free. In other words, it makes it easier for an atheist to "sin" than for a Christian.
But, I believe Christianity allows a person to go to heaven as long as he admits his sin and believes in Jesus isn't it? Then, it does not matter how much sin you have ended up committing. So, ultimately no fine to sins committed isn't it? Then, what is the difference?TJ reply: That is the point I was trying to make. Obeying to avoid a fine or in the case of moral obedience, obeying to avoid violating God's authority and incurring a penalty is just one reason for obedience. The presence of police does help to hold back speeders. The existence of God does have an effect of holding back evil in this world to a certain extent. Of course, that doesn't hold true when it comes to atheists who don't believe in God. They would obey for whatever personal reasons they may have such as not wanting to appear to be immoral to others, etc. But since their worldview does not prohibit immorality, they are free to live however they want when it comes down to it.
I thought I stated clearly why I want to be a moral person. I don't want to be conceived by the other members of the community to be immoral. Since, I'm average, I'm not so concerned about morality.Grapefruit, why is it may I ask that you do not live as a moral person and only an average person? That doesn't seem to bother you. Is it because in the end you don't think it matters whether you live a moral life or just an average life? Do you believe that when you die you will stand before God and give account for your life?
Even inside of jails, inmates check on each other. They are going to be unwritten rules to follow.TJ reply: Well if that were the case, we wouldn't need jails or police would we. I'm not sure I see the evidence for what these anthropologists say. I think people do have a choice. And many choose to violate the standards of their society hoping they will not be caught. In Japan, the young people are rebelling against the customs and morals of their parents. They don't care what the older generation thinks of them or they wouldn't live like that. Besides if that really were true, then morality would not change.
Is there something wrong about using moral values found in teachings of religions for making our society better? I don't believe ideas belong to any single entity or group (you are not trying to copyright moral teachings in the Bible, aren't you? ) If some idea sounds good and useful, what is wrong using it?Atheists borrow from the Christian worldview all the time and like to pretend they are moral, but they cannot even define the word. They have no standard against which to make that judgment. Saying something is wrong does not fit with the atheistic worldview.
What you're saying doesn't sound like Christian to me. I thought Jesus taught us that everyone has sin irrespective occupation, race, gender, etc. Then, why do you like to treat believers and non-believers differently???TJ reply: Those are very valid reasons, but like I said, there are others who are willing to take the chance and speed.(I'm sure you have done so as well.) There are others who actually willingly inflict pain on others. However, an atheist can only say that it violates what he considers to be society's current in-vogue standard of morality. But that is an arbitrary changing standard which in the end is meaningless. If a person doesn't want to live by that standard, they are free not to. An atheist can give no real compelling reason why a person should live by the current idea of morality outside of practical reasons like you mentioned in your post.
Yes, an atheist can live a relatively moral life without believing in God, but he can just as easily live an immoral life without believing in God. It is harder for a Christian to live an immoral life because it violates his own moral conscience.
I don't think so. The word "muder" simply refers to the killing of a human being in an immoral way. Other types of killing have been described with different words, human sacrifice, capital punishment, war, etc.TJ: Yes, societal moral standards change, but God does not change and His standards do not change either. Murder is still a sin and will be forever no matter what society believes or what the laws say.
Not precise. We do not call what has not been born a "person." I agree killing an unborn person is immoral, but I don't know what defines a person. If it is at the late stage of pregnancy, many people do go against abortion. So, it is the matter of when the "embryo" becomes a "person".Abortion is a good example of this. It is legal to kill an unborn person in the US, but it is murder in God's eyes. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is "moral".
Then, what do you call those people? Aren't they the majority of the believers? To me, those people's view is a reflection of the advancement of science.G reply: I agree with the fact God does not change and his standards do not change. However, people's interpretation of the Bible changes. For instance, people used to interpret the time recounted in the Bible literally to calculate how old the world is. After the advancement of science, that literal interpretation was abandoned.
TJ reply: Hmm. Some people still do, including myself. That literal intepretation was only abandoned by those who allow the worldview of naturalism to determine scientific truth.
No they are not frustrated, because these types of questions are not something scientists study. It is religious people who are frustrated because religious people ask these kinds of questions. As Mycernius-san pointed out, science does not examine supernatural causes.I do not believe that scientists can come up with the right answers to the questions they have if they will allow no supernatural causes from the get go. It is only a philosophical reason they have for not being willing to even consider the role of intelligence in the creation of this universe and life. No wonder they are so frustrated and cannot figure out how it all happened. They can study for thousands of years and still they will be no closer to answering the question than they are now. In fact, they will be further away.
I don't think those who claim are saying things would happen in our life time.The more discoveries they make, the more complicated they are finding that life is. Microbiology opened up the world of the cell over the last 40 years, but the discoveries have not stopped. It keeps getting harder and harder to explain it all by natural means. They tell us that someday they'll figure it out.
Again, scientists are not interested in the worldview. Only religious leaders who misunderstand the goals of science become insecure and start to criticize science.Well, that is a statement of faith. They do not know that. I do not believe they will ever figure it out if they leave God out of the picture. My idea is a statement of faith as well. Both evolutionists and Christians must use faith. They interpret the same evidence according to their worldviews. It is the interpretation that is different, not the evidence. But if their worldview is wrong, then JUST MAYBE their interpretation of the evidence is wrong as well.
cheers,
tj
4 seems to be violated these days. Aren't figures of Jesus idols?2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work―you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
17 You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.