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Re: POLL - Can South Korea militarily defeat Japan?

The South Korean troops are not trained by american trainers anymore. The ROK training level has already exceeded US standards, they mostly train alongside of them instead of under them. No matter what your MOS is in the Korean military you were extremely well-trained in the art of warfare, with or without good equipment. The last time the US trained the ROKs were for the their deployment in Iraq, and that was because its an unfamiliar terrain for us.

In fact I know that some US special ops guys went through the korean special forces school. They go through everything what the koreans go through, except they do not get beaten up and they're are fed better.

I think the ROK military is one of the best-trained if not the best-trained in asia. According to some US officers and enlisted I know, they said the ROKS are the best-trained troops they have ever seen. There was also a report from a german advisor who inspected the korean troops back in the 70s and he said in his own words: "If we had soldiers like the South Korean army we might have actually conquered the world". This comment coming from a advisor whose country had previously been the most superbly-trained at its time, is the greatest praise ever given to the ROK army in my opinion.

Our military also had extensive experiance in not only in vietnam, but we lost 10,000 commandos in north korea.
 
This is why I think that the ROK army is stronger than Japan's or even Taiwan's. Yes, true, the Taiwanese are strict with their military, but the SDF is not. True, there are rules and regulations, but training is not that extensive. After all, they're DEFENSE forces.
 
my opinion

lets look at the basic........s.korea cannot defeat japan because of the size, population and their manpower....
 
Welcome, Chino! =)

That may be true in some cases, however, the ROK army is very powerful. Then again, so is the SDF.
 
Again, Korea can't invade Japan. And Japan can't invade Korea.

As for the population thing, generally you would need a minimum number of 3:1 advantage to successfully conquer a country, and that is just to assume that the defensive military is a lot weaker then the invading army.
 
Overlord, Korea won't invade Japan. And Japan won't invade Kora.

However, this is a speculation thread. What would happen if they did?
 
Hi, I am south korean, I was Korean army soldier of 8th Infantry Division
Thank about you said that we are well-trained Soldiers... ^^

I was surprised by this post. and I read this interesting your saying..
(sorry, I cannot write english well..)

um, first, I think about this, Both country don't have abillity of invasion. Because Both countries were controlled by USA strategy of East asia. S. Korea has big Army(armor, Inf, Artillery....) and Airforce's Old models fighters(F5, F4), new model(F16, KF16, F15k). but Korean Navy cannot landing operation and aggressive operation without Usa's support. Korean navy has not enough warship, and LST.

It's the same thing on japan self defence force. Japan navy has more powerful than korean navy, but Japan do not has abillity of landing operation, and Weapons of navy, air force(for example, cruise missle, anti radar missle, blah, blah). but In all countries of world, very Few countries has this abillity(almost only USA), and enough Infantry, armor unit...

Why Two countries have unblaced military Power? because Usa did not want two countries independent military power, and Two country's military power's target was Soviet, and China.

Now, for stability of northern east asia(USA is not Atlantic nation, now, Usa's National interests's basis is Asia and Pacific ocean. by Joshph Nye(International Politic scholar of USA)), USA worry about new Power of China, China's economic development and expansion possibillity is Very dangerous to stability of east asia.

So in spite of Cold war was over, USA need two alliance nation. Two Nation's army's target was Communism's expansion. now Target is China's Expansion.

So Usa made Two nation's army to unbalance power. so Both nations cannot Invade each others.. Korea has too Big strong land army(4, 5th in the world..), but weak old models of navy, and airforce. Japan has powerful navy(best in asia(not usa)) but do not has aggressive abillity, one Neocon's politic scholar said "Never worry about Japan will be past empire.. They do not has aggressive military abillity"

so If South korea of japan invade anothers, Invader must be looser..

But, we think about mind of both nation's people.
do you know 'Dokdo' that you called 'Takesima'(I do not want politic argument)
If japan invade and occupy 'Dokdo', Korean people must fight until island get back however too much blood stream our land, sea.. Korean will not give up.

but. japanese? If korea do not give up 'dokdo', Will Japanese declare a war? however too much blood stream?

Which one is better? I don't know. but Korea's 5000years history was filled by forign invasions. "ナ?テ? annexed ancient Korea nation " chosun", but Korean people did not give up, they fought and get back their land, Powerful chinese nation "ナ津」窶ーツ? defeated.

chinese reunification nation 'テ、@' falled because defeating by 'Kokuryo"(korean northen nation). Succesor of 'テ、@', '窶懌?? losed her emporor because defeating by kokuryo. Postal horse race's nation '遼' defeated by 'Korea', sucessor of 'kokuryo',

and Mongol, succesors of Genghis Khan invaided korean penisula. we lost all land. but korean people did not give up until 40 years. and korean got back perfect indefendance when mongol was weaken.

I do not know japanese history perfect. but I know Korea had history of fight to invasion. so Korean people hate invasion very much. and always they will choose war. not peace on forign controll.

But possibillity of war between south korea and japan is very low. If Korean penisular and japan island are connected by land, Korea's victory can be true. but that's impossible. so Invader will be looser. anyway, If both nation will fight, Both nation's intrests will be damaged very much. both nations economic' basis is Trade. both nation have Very well trained, best quality submarine fleet.
 
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Welcome, lemiel! =)

The Dokdo/Takeshima arguement was a good one. Currently, I think it is being loosely "shared" by both nations. I think both Japan and the ROK are smart enough to not wage war over a small island.
 
In Position of Japan, 'Dokdo' is not Big problem. But Korean's Position is different.

When Korea was colony of japan, korea lost two region, Dokdo and ナ?テ披?懌?。(korean Chinese living land near 窶ケg窶氾堕湘 and 窶氾俄?扣ツ湘 and テシK龍ツ江ツ湘 in present). Japan took Dokdo, sold ナ?テ披?懌?。 to China because japan wanted to get right of setting up railroad in Manchuria.

when korea independanted, we got back Dokdo, but could not get back ナ?テ披?懌?。.

Many Korean think that Japan want to be Empire, to occupy korea because Japan say "Our Annex of korea was Lawfullness", "Takesima will be our island", "ナ渡ナ坦ヒ???窶「w was unforced prostitution".

On pragmaticism, Korea and Japan will be strategic alliances because two nations want stability of Eastern north asia. but Still our elder people that lived in Japan empire's violence and young people disbelieve Japan.

Korea lost Big Land of ナ?テ披?懌?。 by Japan. If USA would sell okinawa to Taiwan, Hokkaido to Soviet, What do you think about USA? Korean lost Many things in Japan empire. school girl, unmarried woman(my grandmother married quickly because fear to be sex slave) was made sex slave by Japan Colony government. Our young man, and fathers was choosen Soldier, forced worker and died in Japan's war.

so Korean never recognize that their land(Dokdo) can be a subject of negotiation.
If Japan forced to recognize? Korean choose war. Korean hate war. But they Hate Imperialism more. although Japanese think It's not Imperialism, People(korea, china) that had a history of Japan's invasion do not think same.

I think that most of japan are good, and love peace. they do not understand chinese, korean's saying "Japanese were Invader of Imperialism. They can be Evil invader some day." why? Korean and chinese were victim by Japan empire. at that time. Japan people were Victim by Japan empire and military clique. But Japan empire's leader and Military clique were japanese too.

If japanese want to understand problem of 'Dokdo', they must learn history of '36years of Korean colony.' It's not simple territory negotiation of small island.
 
I understand, leimeil.

Are there any inhabitants of Ullung-do, the closest ROK island to Dokdo.
 
It's obvious

Korea lost against Japan in the past, I recall.
But NOW, Korea can easily flush Japan in less than 2 days.
Furthermore,Japaneses know that they have no friends in Asia.
 
Biggereyes - what about the Chinese Republic? Unlike the PRC and the ROK, there haven't been any flag-burning incidents there lately.
 
Taiwan, Succesor of 窶吮??窶ーテ倪?督ッナ。ツ? do not forget history of Japan's war crime(For example, Nanking massacre), Taiwan goverment protested about Japan middle school History textbook's falsified history. They think same thing about Japan's war crime.

I think Japan can be Leader of East asia. But neighbor nation do not want that. Neighbor nation of japan(not russia) were Victim by Japan's imperialism. Japan has strong economic, military, political power in asia, But No nation believe japan.

at that time. German did war crime, too. But They did not like japan. Now, nobody Burn flag of german. German's historical rival, France is best friend of germany. what's the difference?

Past crime must be forgotten, be forgiven. we must advance to future together.

But, If past assaulter do not recognize his fault, do not apologize to Vitim,
Can victim people forgive assaulter?

It's mental problem that assaulter can not understand.
If japan say "Sex slave? Nanking massacre? War? Imperialism? they were nothing but past subject. We must advance to future. apology is unnecessary."
Japan can not get true friendly neighbor nation forever in east asia.
 
I am actualist about international politic. so I think Korea must be good friend of Japan. two nation's same political goal, Stability of Asia. We must ready possibility of China's Expansional desire. and Joseph Nye, Scholar of international politic said "East asia, In long-ranged vision, must advanced to making local security council, like EU, but, For stability against outbreak possibility, USA's alliances and expeditionary army must remain for sufficient time."

For this long ranged vision, Japan's attitude about past history is very important. East asia is one of world economic core, will be core of world economic. But East asia is best possibility of Large scale war, too. If Nobody cannot believe Japan, How can local security council be made?
 
This is really not the time to fight for a bigger piece of pie...

I believe that reflecting on the historical mistakes in the late 1800's by the Qing dynasty has the untmost significance. If China should make the regrettable choice to seize hegemony in a world that is changing rapidly towards economic, military blocs, eventually it can only lead to a repeat of the Opium War in all practicality. It's a big country, with a great number of highly inteligent individuals, yet we also know what happened during the Great Leap Forward.

This is the time to pool resources, to build up alliances, to share every chance to enhance the prospect of prosperity which requires stability and mutually beneficial relations. I am culturally open minded to both China, Japan, and their peoples; nevertheless, should any ultrnationalist partizan should succeed in taking power and begin to push their people towards expansionism, I am ready to struggle unto death to crush that attempt.

I am confident that I am not alone in my stand. Anything that stands in the way of a greater Asian alliance should be removed with the utmost sincerity and efficiency. A pan-Asian security council, with or without China, or even Japan, should be established as soon as possible. Latecomers can pay a reasonable admission fee or terms to that effect.
 
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Hey, lexico-san!

I agree with you, lemiel. Japan must apologize first. But I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then. Taiwan doesn't, and look at the way that the Republic and Japan have been getting closer to apology and forgivement. True, the government on Taiwan is the Republic, but actual war crimes by the Japanese on Taiwan Island from 1895 through 1945 were not as hideous as in mainland China or Korea, or even Vietnam or the Phillipines.
 
Taiwan Governmet is concerned party of "Nanking massacre". the nationalist china were defeated by Communist china, and went to Taiwan. Nationalist Chinese army near Nanking were defeated by Japan empire, and Massacre started.

and, you say "Japan must apologize first. But I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then"

First. Japan did not fomal apolozing about War crime in WW2 until now.
and Japan's nationalist politicion and scholar still say "It's not war crime. our annex, and sex slave was lawful. Our war inquired Great east asia's indefendence(by Japan's controll) and mutual prosperity"
Japan government say, "ヒ?「ナ?ツカ", not "ナステ凪?ーテ?apolozing)"

some our culture scholar say. "Japanese can not show clearness expression"
But, It can not be passed by Culture difference.

second. So, Chinese and korean has "indignation" to no-fomal apologizing of japan. someone use to has extreme furious mind. Our elder women that ware 窶愿コ窶怒ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w only want Fomal apologizing of Japan government. But they could not hear that.

Hiroshi, Your saying can liken this.
Man "A" raped woman "B",
Woman "B" wanted to hear Apologizing of Man "A",
But "A" said "I did not rape!! I am innocence!! It's lawful sex!!",
so Woman "B" was very anger. and Woman "B" abused to Man "B".

Man "C", Son of Man "B", shouted!!
"She abused!!! she is crimer too!! she is lack of common sense, non manner!! My father's crime become same grade of her crime!! so Our family do not need Apologizing to her!!! hurrah!!"

You do not have this thinking. But Elder women that were sex slave of Japan army think that.

If USA army's soldier rape japanese School girl in connivance of USA government, and USA government refuse demand that she and her family want to hear fomal apologizing.

so Japanese burn USA flag and abused to american.
Some USA people say "I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then"

How will you think about his saying?
 
Lemiel, you are mentioning the nationalist scholars above. Those people are ignorant and reactionary. When you look at Japan, do you only see those nationalist scholars? Do you not see the social, political, and economic progress of the twentieth century?

True, the Republic of China saw massacres at Nanjing. But I am not talking about those. I am talking about the atrocities that occured on Taiwan Island from 1895 to 1945. There were not many.

Hasn't Japan apologized to the Republic of China? That is, the government on Taiwan Island? They have. And do you see any flag burning there? No, I haven't. Was there flag burning there before Japan apologized? No.
 
In common sense. If Jews burn flag of Nazi, and germeny, do Germeny's War crime disapear? If koran and chinese burn flag of japan, You think Japan's war crime disapear? It' not common sense.

First, Japan did not apologize before burning of Japan flag.

second, If japan governmet decide non apologizing because Burning of flag. It's nonsense. Why? Japan's war crimes were, Civilian massacre, living body test(biological weapon, penetration gunnery test, air pressure and temperature(frostbite and burn)) of 731unit(they became company of green cross after war), sex slave....

It can be same grade of Burning falg of japan? thousands our flags ware burned by japan when demonstration of Independance.

Even that fact, You think "Japan's war crime do not need apologizing to nation where it's people burned japan's flag."

But, Think that, IF some japanese burn korea flag, I can rape your sister and school girls, kill your family, has right of japanese living body test, take your property? It's common sense?

Yes. all japanese are not nationalist. But some nationalist say foolish talk and write "non war crime textbook of history". and japan government ministry member said somtimes same thing.

Does not Old woman that was sexslave by japan governmet(non apologizing) has "right of burning FLAG of JAPAN?"

If I am japanese, I never say that, and I am dishonorable my nation.
 
4 Japanese Prime ministers had apologized to Korea officially , but they came short when they performed due to some of the major famous Japanese politicians opposition. But anyways they apologized.(I cannot understand why Koreans never taught of this fact to the kids )

I agree that its a problem of Japanese politicians unabled to make their opinions into one to apologize to their Asian neighbours clearly.

but Korea has often problems too especialy when the Korean medias always focus on the negative parts of Japan and they intend to trivialize fact when Japan showed some positive and friendly gesture to Korea but Meanwhile Korean medias tend to exaggerate when Japanese politicians show some of their opinion that is likely to be shown and understood like enchanting their side about history.

In many Koreans view,they will never forgive Japan(even though Japan would do what Koreans demand) and many Koreans are succesfully branwashed by medias and nationalistic education.(I am not sell out but its true) but I personally found many Japanese having some difficulties or guilty towards Koreans and Chinese due to historical reason.

Both countries should change at the same time.
Korea has much problem too.( self-conscious view)

 
In 1982, Japan Land minister,"ツ渉シ窶禿ャツ幸窶佚? said
"Korean text book can be wrong, For example, Nobody know right or wrong about Korean history text that was written that japan invaded korea"

In 1986, education minister"Husio Masayuki" said first
"Do not say again! malcontent think about his nation did same thing in history"
and apologized saying. but he say"I remain my opinion in politicion"

and education minister"Husio Masayuki" said second
"If Invasion were, Victim people thought about their problem. at that time, Whoever made korea to colony, so Japan's invasion was not perfect true. Victim nation had blame and trouble" and he was fired.

and "Husio Masayuki" said third in 窶「ツカテ・Yツ春ツ秋
"at that time, Japan's politic was same imperialism with Western Power. but, it's unfairness that only japan was critisize. Korea was inability and weak. the half responsibility of "unhappy history between korea and japan" was Korean's"

in 1995, Watanabe michio, past diplomatic minister said
"Japan controlled korea. but there was not colonization in San Francisco's agreement, so Annex was lawful. It was not forced. If people call that, [Colonization], [Invasion war], It make many problem"

in 1996, the general affairs department minister "Eto dakami" said
"at that time, Japan's invasion was bad. but did good thing. Japanese did not think that korean were Colony people. and We did not steal cultural assets of korea, china(****, Too many cultural assets were stolen and robbed) like england, France."
and In Off the record "Murayama's apologizing was not true"

in Obuchi ministry, Japan agriculture minister "窶吮??ツ静ャツ渉コヒ?ェ" said
" Forced Sex slaves were not true."

In ツ渉ャツ静イツ照塚?ェテサツカ(koizmi junichiro)ministry, Japan education minister "nakayama" said
"In new textbook, Reducing "ナ渡ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w, sex slave", "Foced going together" was Good thing."

How do you think? Can you say "they are a few people in japan?"
They were minister, Politician in upper apologizing.
Can you think that true, fomal Apologizing?

In spite of that absurd of Leader of japan, Korean and chinese's Demand that Japan apologize fomal, truly was too excessive and persistencial?
 
I'm not trying to divert attention here...

so please don't get me wrong.
These are just my thoughts without deep thinking, but i'd like to run it by you.
Some of it may sound cold or theoretical, but the issue isn;t all hot blooded, and has universal significance for anyone interested, and that's why I am posting this.

1-1. A formal apology=accepting the willful act of damaging another person's natural rights.

1-2. A formal apology=accepting the moral responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

1-3. A formal apology=accepting the legal responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another. (The law could be international law, war criminal law, local govermental law,....not sure)

1-4. A formal apology=expressing one's intent that one will not violate again in the future.

1-5. A formal apology=has nothing to do with what one truly thinks or feels, but is only evidence of one's understanding of social (international) relationship in the positive sense.

1-6. A formal apology=will be insincere if one keeps changing one's apology to denial back and forth; this would be considered further damage.

Given number 1-6, wouldn't the muddy stand of the leading Japanese politicians who represent the people who voted them into the parties/offices make number 6 applicable?

A refusal to formally apologize would compute as follows.

2-1. A refusal to give a formal apology=denyingthe willful act of damaging another person's (people's) natural rights.

2-2. A refusal to give a formal apology=denying the moral responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

2-3. A refusal to give a formal apology=denying the legal responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

2-4. A refusal to give a formal apology=expressing one's intent that one may very well violate again in the future.

2-5. A refusal to give a formal apology=surely expresses one's lack of understanding of social (international) relationship in the positive sense.

2-6. A refusal to give a formal apology=further damage.

Number 6 is a heavy accusation that the Japanese nation is facing. In a court of law that would be construed as contempt of law and order.

Whether Japan wishes to be a team player or not is totally up to Japan. Just becaue Taiwan prefered not to burn the Japanese flag does NOT imply that people dissatasified with the insincere and whimsical attitudes and utterances of Japan's leadership CANNOT burn flags.

Can anyone here force it down the throat of a Jewish person that (s)he MUST/SHOULD/OUGHT TO/HAD BETTER forgive Hitler?
By the way this last rhetorical question holds true regardless of whether Germany apologized or not.
The very act of apologizing assumes the transferral of moral judgement to the victim in the absolute.
Otherwise why would we call it an apology?
 
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Its true that many flaws are found in Korean text book at the moment while I agree some of the major Japanese politicians have problems in terms of seeing their reign Korea for 36 years.

I hope you guys read these following articles.
These articles are very well written based on the fair view point and trustworthy materials that most Koreans do not know and will not read rationally.


딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
 
I personally think professor Lee Young hoon's view point about the result of Japanese reign of Korea exactly match with those 3 articles above.
I agree to his perspective at least about the economic result of Japanese reign of Korea. He collected many economic stats and materials during the period and made his result by his economic knowledges. (at least his method looks very respectable and cool to me)

Korean people should change its posture to treat this issue,otherwise it will be the minus result for us to make any decent debate with Japan.
Emotionally laming refutation could not help our side any more in the future.


 
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