Rape Of Nanking

[urecco]

There is enough evidence for mass rape & mass murder. Look eg. at the Rabe diaries.

He wrote almost everything on hearsay,so there are contradiction between his diary and Vautrin's one and even incoherence in his diary.
He said 50,000 to 60,000 civilians were killed.But the result of survery produced by Smythe says there were 2,400 killed and 6,200 kidnapped.
He sheltered two Chinese officers for about 60 days and did not mention the incident that the ex-Chinese officers in the presence of Americans and other foreigners confessed looting in Nanking and also that one night they dragged girls into the darkness and the next day blamed Japanese soldiers for the
attacks,which was reported by The New York Times in January 4, 1938.
I don't think he is trustworthy.

About the number of victims: Would it really make much of a difference if the Japanese murdered 40000, 200,000 or 300,000? I'm all for objective research into the actual number, since I've never understood that some people make a dogma of history. Yet i can't see how this would change the view of the perpetrators. Whether someone is responsible for 4,000 or 4,000,000 murders, it's still a mass murderer.

It is not only matter of number.Who were killed and Why they were killed are also important.Execution of POWs in Nanking was probably illegal.Guellira is illegal.Killing civilians is illegal.But there are differences.
Execution of POWs had reasons which would be being afraid of being attacked by guelliras after releasing them, lack of food and facility to keep them and the massive number of POWs.
Execution of suspects of guelliras was completely lawful.However,Japanese Army omitted due process,thus it was illegal.
In my opinion,it should not be called "staughter" or "massacre."

What is a con-massacre website?
What would you call "explain logically"? The denial is simply wrong, because a massacre happened. The number of victims can be discussed, but the fact of a massacre remains.

"Con-massacre website" meant an website which denies "Nanking Massacre" propagated by Chinese gov't and the number of victoms is more than 300,000.
I'm sorry that should not have used that words.
China alway propagates that Japan whitewash the history or deny the Nanking Massacre and many people believe so,but I've never seen any book which explain logically how denial of Nanking Massacre propagated by China is wrong.Before the incident the population of Nanking was counted about 200,000 or 260,000 to 310,000 and after the incident it was counted about 250,000.How can Chinese School be correct?
Like this,there are so many indications about Chinese School,but there are no responce besides "Do not whitewash your war crime" ,"Japan lacks mercy" or something like these.

Here is a quite good article which explains the 3 Japanese schools of thought regarding the massacre.

It is not accurate.
Illusion School argue that there were certain amount of execution but it was mainly lawful,in other words,there were no evidence which prove that it was illegal.Then they concludes that nobody can assert how many victims were killed illegally,thus "Nanking massacre" is like illusion.
the Middle-of-the-Road School argue that there were about 40,000 execution.The difference between Itakura Yoshiaki and Hata Ikuhiko is definition of illegal execution.
Both of them never argue that Japanese Army raped massive women or intentionally killed civilians.
So-called "right wing" people deny the Nanking massacre because execution and massacre are different things.

Even though i'm against the war in Iraq, at least the British and Americans have sent over people to help rebuild.
50 years down the line left over Japanese weapons are still exploding in China, and you expect them to be happy about that ???

Those Japanse weapons were seized by Russia and Russia gave to one of Chinese gov'ts.So Japan do not have any responsiblity of it.
The source of it is website and it might not be true.
However,in any case,the minister who really loves Chine promised to give thorough support to deal with the weapons.The cost was 300 billion yen.
Although we do not need to compensate to China,we have lent 200 billion a year for more than 15 years.
But nobody know in China.

 

[Wang]

You dont exactly go into someone's house for no reason kick them in the nuts and expect them to forgive you.

I can name a list of houses China went to and did bad things to them in the past.

Even though i'm against the war in Iraq, at least the British and Americans have sent over people to help rebuild.
50 years down the line left over Japanese weapons are still exploding in China, and you expect them to be happy about that ???

To be honest i dont really care about specific details and numbers, the fact is Japan invaded China for no good reason and didnt do a very good job fixing things up afterwards.

And yes this is an opinion.

The Japanese government has up to now payed over 6 trillion yen to the PRC alone and still has the ODA program (Japan's Official Development Assistance).

I don't want to waste time telling my opinion about the screwed up land (read prison) called the People's Republic of China.

 

[Gaki]

I don't want to waste time telling my opinion about the screwed up land (read prison) called the People's Republic of China.

And i dont want to waste my time readin it, so we're even.

 

[bossel]

He wrote almost everything on hearsay,so there are contradiction between his diary and Vautrin's one and even incoherence in his diary.[...]
I don't think he is trustworthy.

Diaries are obviously subjective. Whether you think he is trustworthy does not change the fact that he witnessed a lot of atrocities & that he was not the only witness.

It is not only matter of number.Who were killed and Why they were killed are also important.[...]
In my opinion,it should not be called "staughter" or "massacre."

When you kill thousands of unarmed people under your control, you're a mass murderer.
POW's have to be treated in certain ways according to the Geneva convention (& according to common sense). You may call it execution to kill them, but it's still murder.

Before the incident the population of Nanking was counted about 200,000 or 260,000 to 310,000 and after the incident it was counted about 250,000.How can Chinese School be correct?

There was quite a large number of refugees in the city at the time. In the international security zone (instituted after Japanese atrocities began) alone were about 300,000 people, AFAIK. You don't want to tell me that all Nanjing citizens left the city to stay in the zone?
What's more, it's not only about the people in Nanjing itself, but also in the surrounding areas. The Nanjing massacre was not in one place at one day, the widely accepted time span is 6 weeks & it includes an area much greater than Nanjing alone. Nitpicking about some nominal number of Nanjing citizens doesn't prove anything.

It is not accurate.

As the author said, it is his own definition which differs from the "official" one.

So-called "right wing" people deny the Nanking massacre because execution and massacre are different things.

Not necessarily. See above.

 

[urecco]

Diaries are obviously subjective. Whether you think he is trustworthy does not change the fact that he witnessed a lot of atrocities & that he was not the only witness.

Please quote the sentence which say Rabe witnessed the murders committed by Japanese Soldiers by his own eyes.

When you kill thousands of unarmed people under your control, you're a mass murderer.
POW's have to be treated in certain ways according to the Geneva convention (& according to common sense). You may call it execution to kill them, but it's still murder.

I know it was illegal and condemnable.And you call it murder.
But there are difference between killing POWs with reasons which I mentioned before and killing civilians without reasons.
For you,it might be same.But for most of Japanese,there are many differences.

It is obvious to everyone that Atomic bombings were illegal.
But some Americans justify it.
Had American army killed 300,000 civilians like alleged "Nanking Massacre",
would you think they could justify it?

You mentioned there are no difference,but you cling to the mass murder of civilians.

There was quite a large number of refugees in the city at the time. In the international security zone (instituted after Japanese atrocities began) alone were about 300,000 people, AFAIK. You don't want to tell me that all Nanjing citizens left the city to stay in the zone?
What's more, it's not only about the people in Nanjing itself, but also in the surrounding areas. The Nanjing massacre was not in one place at one day, the widely accepted time span is 6 weeks & it includes an area much greater than Nanjing alone. Nitpicking about some nominal number of Nanjing citizens doesn't prove anything.

AFAIK,there are no evidence that many people living in the area surround the Nanjing at the occasion.Why didn't they run away from the area where Japanese Army came to kill? Who saw the massacre in that area?
According to the Japanese official record,most civilians were in city of Nanking and there was virtually no one outside of it.
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' Chapter II ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv'æ"ñÍ

Do you believe the Nanking Massare which China cliams?
If so,which evidence do you think proves that Chinese School is right?

As the author said, it is his own definition which differs from the "official" one.

Then, do you believe that even middle-road-school does not argues that Japanese Army killed innnocent civilians besides suspects of guerillas?

 

[bossel]

Please quote the sentence which say Rabe witnessed the murders committed by Japanese Soldiers by his own eyes.

Sorry, I forgot to go to the library to borrow the diaries (it's only possible to be borrowed over the weekend), but if I find the time, I'll go there on Tuesday & have a look. I have looked online though & found this quote:

"We found corpses of women on beer glasses and others who had been lanced by bamboo shoots. I saw the victims with my own eyes--I talked to some of them right before their deaths and had their bodies brought to the morgue at Kulo Hospital so that I could be personally convinced that all of these reports [he had written] had touched on the truth." John Rabe in the winter of 1938.

Good enough for you?

It is obvious to everyone that Atomic bombings were illegal.
But some Americans justify it.
Had American army killed 300,000 civilians like alleged "Nanking Massacre",
would you think they could justify it?

The US killed a lot of civilians in several wars & there are always people trying to justify this. Killing civilians is always wrong! There is a big difference though, whether you actually target civilians (as in Dresden, Nagasaki or Nanjing) or whether it is "collateral damage."

You mentioned there are no difference,but you cling to the mass murder of civilians.

I didn't notice that I cling to something.
I said that killing unarmed people is murder, whether civilians or POW's does not matter very much.

AFAIK,there are no evidence that many people living in the area surround the Nanjing at the occasion.Why didn't they run away from the area where Japanese Army came to kill?

Most of the people in the direct vicinity of Nanjing perhaps fled to the city, but it's pretty improbable that people who lived in the surrounding areas all left their property, esp. if lying farther away. Many would stay to look after their houses & lifestock. If you have almost nothing, you may be quite keen on keeping it.

Do you believe the Nanking Massare which China cliams?
If so,which evidence do you think proves that Chinese School is right?
Then, do you believe that even middle-road-school does not argues that Japanese Army killed innnocent civilians besides suspects of guerillas?

I do not believe. Your questions suggest that you make the Nanjing massacre a case of belief. Then it is pretty useless to argue. If you believe that there never was a massacre or rape, then that's it. You're free to believe whatever you want, but that does not necessarily make it true.

About the different Japanese schools I don't know much. Just what's in the article. I don't really care how many different schools there are & what they teach. I look at the commonly accepted history & try to estimate how valid the evidence for that is. Evidence suggests that there was a massacre & that women were raped on a massive scale.


BTW, here is a CNN article about a Japanese soldier who "attempts to make peace with haunting memories."

Quote:
"Azuma beheaded four men that day. He still wonders whether or not they were innocent farmers as they claimed to be.
But at the time, he says his fellow soldiers convinced him otherwise. The Imperial Army was consumed with a prejudice so intense that killing became easy, he said.
"We were taught that we were a superior race since we lived only for the sake of a human god -- our emperor. But the Chinese were not. So we held nothing but contempt for them," Azuma said."

 

[urecco]

Sorry, I forgot to go to the library to borrow the diaries (it's only possible to be borrowed over the weekend), but if I find the time, I'll go there on Tuesday & have a look. I have looked online though & found this quote:

"We found corpses of women on beer glasses and others who had been lanced by bamboo shoots. I saw the victims with my own eyes--I talked to some of them right before their deaths and had their bodies brought to the morgue at Kulo Hospital so that I could be personally convinced that all of these reports [he had written] had touched on the truth." John Rabe in the winter of 1938.

Good enough for you?

He found the corpses which killed by someone.And he did not know who killed the women.Right?
People normally believe it was done by Japanese cruel Army.
However,there are no evidence that it was done by Japanese.
The way of killing was very similar to Tongzhou Incident,which was done by Chinese.
http://members3.jcom.home.ne.jp/kadzuwo/history/tongzhou.htm

As we entered Asahiken, a Japanese restaurant, we saw seven to eight women all stripped off, raped, and shot dead; some with a broom pushed into their private,

Chinese officer checked the corpses and Chinise gov't(国民党-Kuomintang) compansated for it.But there are no website which informs the deteal of this incident,besides the one written by Japanese,so I could not show naturalised website.
And again,it was reported that at least one Chinese ex-soilder raped a woman and blamed Japanese soldier as if Japanese soldiers had done it.

Japanese might have killed them,but Chinese might have killed them.
Rabe just saw corpses.

He said they had been brought to the morgue.
However,according to the chinese gov't,more than 5,000 a day were killed in Nanking.Was it possible to bring every corpse to morgues? Were they exceptionally brought to the morgue? If so,why? Did he mentioned anything which answer my question,like "As Japanese Army killed too many civlians,it is impossible to bring all corpses to morgues."

...so that I could be personally convinced that all of these reports [he had written] had touched on the truth."

Just because of the corpses who had been killed by someone,why could he be convinced that all of these reports had toughed on the truth?
Rabe meant before he saw the corpses he had not been sure whether the reports were true or not and after seeing the corpses he believed everything.For Chinese ex-soldiers,he must be a pushover.

If he had seen many murders committed by Japanese regularly,he would not have written this sentence.It shows he wrote almost evertything on hearsay.

But...in any case I will wait for you to quote another incident which Rabe witnessed by his eyes.

Thank you for looking for incidents.

The US killed a lot of civilians in several wars & there are always people trying to justify this. Killing civilians is always wrong! There is a big difference though, whether you actually target civilians (as in Dresden, Nagasaki or Nanjing) or whether it is "collateral damage."

I should not have said "justify." I know people should not justify killing civilians and POWs.
However...how many times did I said Japanese Army never targeted civilians?
Although you never accept the fact that Japanese Army never targeted civilians,you said there are no difference to kill 40,000 POWs and 300,000 people including civilians and POWs.As you deny my opinion about what happend in Nanking,to argue whether there is any differece between killing POWs and killing civilian is meaningless.So if you agreed that it was extremely doubtful that Japanese killed massive number of civilians,let's discuss about the difference.

Most of the people in the direct vicinity of Nanjing perhaps fled to the city, but it's pretty improbable that people who lived in the surrounding areas all left their property, esp. if lying farther away. Many would stay to look after their houses & lifestock. If you have almost nothing, you may be quite keen on keeping it.

It might be true.
but...What are surrounding areas? How many kilo meter away from city of Nanking?
Why did JA go to those areas to kill people?
What is the evidence which show JA killed lots of people in surrounding areas?
Even if JA had killed 250,000 people,why would it be called "Nanking Massacre" ? Does anyone say most civilians killed in surrounding areas?
No one says that.
Realising it was impossible to kill 300,000 in Nanking, Chinese gov't just made new difinition of Nanking Massacre,I reckon.

I do not believe. Your questions suggest that you make the Nanjing massacre a case of belief. Then it is pretty useless to argue. If you believe that there never was a massacre or rape, then that's it. You're free to believe whatever you want, but that does not necessarily make it true.

As everyone knows,I am not an English speaker,so I misused the word "believe".
I meant "Do you think the Chinese School is resonable or seems to be true"

About the different Japanese schools I don't know much. Just what's in the article. I don't really care how many different schools there are & what they teach. I look at the commonly accepted history & try to estimate how valid the evidence for that is. Evidence suggests that there was a massacre & that women were raped on a massive scale.

The reason why I explained the definition of Japanese Schools is that I guessed you had showed the explain of Japanese Schools in order to say most of Japanese Schools argue that there was massacre of civilians.As I said it is not true,I wanted you to understand that I am not an extremist but one who thinks one of popular Schools seems to be true.

The commonly accepted history of Nanking Massacre is one which china claims and totally unacceptable for every historian in Japan.
Nobody knows where the number of 300,000 came from.
But most people in the world believe it.That's the problem.
Do you have any evidence that proves 300,000 victims?

BTW, here is a CNN article about a Japanese soldier who "attempts to make peace with haunting memories."

Quote:
"Azuma beheaded four men that day. He still wonders whether or not they were innocent farmers as they claimed to be.
But at the time, he says his fellow soldiers convinced him otherwise. The Imperial Army was consumed with a prejudice so intense that killing became easy, he said.
"We were taught that we were a superior race since we lived only for the sake of a human god -- our emperor. But the Chinese were not. So we held nothing but contempt for them," Azuma said."

It just mentioned that there was at least one soldier who unfairly judged the guy as guellira.If JA had killed massive innocent people indiscriminately,why would he have need to wonder whether the farmer was innocent or not?

In any case,this information is based on Azuma's diary, which was proved to be fake in the Supreme Court in 2000.
Normally,people never confess the crime they has not done.
However,think about it,did china or anyone blame him?
No.They treat him as a good man who tells the truth or some kind of hero.
That's why some people confess fake crimes.

Sorry for long passage.

 

[sabro]

This thread give me chills. The institutionalized rape and murder of civillians in China by the Japanese Imperial Army is well documented. The numbers are not. Sources are not hard to find, as is evidence of attrocities which include cannibalism and human experimentation. It's not a pretty chapter in history and the numbers get sketchy because they are so incredibly, overwhelmingly huge. A lot of this thread seems to be an attempt at revisionism-- to say by some degree that it wasn't so bad.

 

[Eve]

Did the japanese give China their apologies? If so, can i see an article or whatever about it

 

[urecco]

Did the japanese give China their apologies? If so, can i see an article or whatever about it

As far as I know,the Japanese have never apologized particularly for Nanking Incident.But the Japanese have apologized for invasion on Asian countries including China several times.

Southeast Asia's Airlines Are Pretty Much No More Dangerous Than American Ones

 

[Eve]

That means they did then...but why the hell Japan didnt wanna write a letter of apology but only using verbal apologies?

 

[Kamisama]

violence isn't that answer except the ignorant. That's why death can only cure a fool. If i have ever been violent in my life it's because i believe someone was being ignorant and a fool. This is what sparks violence, i believe. Or else lack of understanding or a communications barrier.

 

[shiroma]

Did the japanese give China their apologies?

But the Japanese have apologized for invasion on Asian countries including China several times.

These posters could have bothered going through the past messages in this thread to find a post like this.

 

[Eve]

umm most of those are towards the koreans not china

 

[urecco]

That means they did then...but why the hell Japan didnt wanna write a letter of apology but only using verbal apologies?

What do you mean they did?

I don't know why they didn't wanna write a letter of appology.
But I don't know why China need written apology.
Did Great Britain apologize for their invasion?
Did Germany give written apology for the invasion to the countries which they had invaded?

The Chinese do not know that Japan has apologized.
They do not know that Japan has supported China and spent more than trillion yen.
They do not know that China abandoned the right to require compasation to Japan.
China hides many things and gives thier people anti-Japan propaganda.

Before requiring a letter of apology for the invasion about 60 years ago,China should give even verbal apology to the people in Tibet.

These posters could have bothered going through the past messages in this thread to find a post like this.

I didn't think the post is exact answer of Eve's post.
But I should have mentioned that post.

 

[shiroma]

umm most of those are towards the koreans not china

Joining in the JREF forum on Nov. 6th 2003 would give an old-timer status, old enough to remember the famous jim83 fiasco which included such posts as this.

 

[Eve]

Urecco: They verbally apologized to the Chinese Government...

Weird japanese characters name guy: I still dont get what ur trying to say

 

[urecco]

Urecco: They verbally apologized to the Chinese Government...

Sorry,I misunderstood.
You wrote "That means they did then..."
And I guess you may mean that Japan apologized because they had done Nanking Incident.

bossel:Have you been to the library?

 

[bossel]

Nope, sorry. No time yet.
Will write as soon as I got the book.

 

[urecco]

Take your time.
I just wanted to know whether you got the book or not.

 

[shiroma]

Author Iris Chang Found Dead from Self-Inflicted Gunshot along Calif. Highway

Sounds similar to the Clifford Baxter case. Recent "retirement" of Jiāng Zﾃｩmﾃｭn and perhaps the re-election of the president of the United States might explain the "why now" question, although it is possible that the "fact" will soon be "Japanese facists eliminated her."

 

[bossel]

I finally laid my hands on the book John Rabe by Erwin Wickert. You should read it, if afterwards you still think there were no wide-scale Japanese atrocities you are truly irrecoverably lost. Sadly I don't have time to read the book in its entirety, I'm just able to sift through it.

He found the corpses which killed by someone.And he did not know who killed the women.Right?
Japanese might have killed them,but Chinese might have killed them.
Rabe just saw corpses.

Wrong. He was out on the streets pretty much every day. He could very well differentiate between what Chinese marauding soldiers did & what the Japanese did. He did not only see corpses, but he could also see when they died & how they were killed. When there are no Chinese with guns around anymore & you find a lot of (really a lot of) people with gun shot or bayonet wounds, it's pretty easy to assume that most of them must have been victims of those people who are swarming all over the place with guns & bayonets.

Rabe not only mentions atrocities by Japanese, he also noticed & wrote down Chinese misbehaviour. But what he also noticed is that the Chinese army had showed a much better discipline up until they were heavily bombarded & had to withdraw. But they looted only one part of the city & then mainly food & clothing stores.

Did he mentioned anything which answer my question,like "As Japanese Army killed too many civlians,it is impossible to bring all corpses to morgues."

Actually, what Rabe mentions is that many corpses were simply thrown into ditches, but also that many executions were done beside a river, in order to get rid of the corpses in an easy way.

Rabe meant before he saw the corpses he had not been sure whether the reports were true or not and after seeing the corpses he believed everything.For Chinese ex-soldiers,he must be a pushover.

Nope, he wasn't. As you didn't read his diary, I can't really see how you can judge that.

It might be true.
but...What are surrounding areas? How many kilo meter away from city of Nanking?

That depends on the definition of the historian doing the research.

Why did JA go to those areas to kill people?

Maybe because there were a lot of bloodthirsty bastards in the JA?

What is the evidence which show JA killed lots of people in surrounding areas?

Evidence would be eg. when somebody drives through such an area after the Chinese troops alreay left & again after the Japanese troops came through there. One such instance is described in the book:
The Chinese troops followed a mild policy of torched earth as it seems, but they didn't kill many people, only burned some farms. After the Japanese troops had been there virtually all villages were destroyed, all farm animals killed & human corpses could be found, although many residents fled when the Japanese arrived (p.201).
A historian counting Japanese victims could add the victims of the ensuing malnutrition & attrition to the count (don't know if & to which degree this happened, though).

Realising it was impossible to kill 300,000 in Nanking, Chinese gov't just made new difinition of Nanking Massacre,I reckon.

Why impossible? According to some estimates there may have been up to a million people in & around the city.

The commonly accepted history of Nanking Massacre is one which china claims and totally unacceptable for every historian in Japan.
Nobody knows where the number of 300,000 came from.
But most people in the world believe it.That's the problem.
Do you have any evidence that proves 300,000 victims?

I don't, but I'm not a historian yet (esp. in that field of research).
The number 300,000 comes from different estimates. As you know, there are also other estimates. But all are just estimates, nobody knows for sure.

Normally,people never confess the crime they has not done.

AFAIK, there are some 120 Japanese ex-soldiers who told similar stories.


Coming back to Rabe:
He himself witnessed several attempted rapes by Japanese soldiers. He was out on the streets every day & could very well judge what was going on. But he was not alone, there were other members of the German embassy & other foreign diplomats & correspondents.

Some Mr. Smith from Reuters witnessed 1000 Chinese standing tied up on a field. Then they were led away to be executed by a shot to their head. Smith watched roughly 100 of these executions until a Japanese officer noticed the group of foreigners & made them go away (p.117).

Rosen, from the German embassy, notes that inside the international safety zone alone the committee members & their employees witnessed hundreds of rapes ("Hunderte von Fﾃ､llen viehischer Vergewaltigungen unwiderleglich bezeugt" p.173f).

Krﾃｶger, committee member, writes in a report that immediately after their arrival the Japanese troops went through refugee camps & in a few days killed roughly 5000 man without drumhead court-martial. These executions happened beside the river, so that the dead bodies could be easily disposed of (p.200).

All page numbers are for the German edition.

 

[urecco]

I will go to a library and get the book.

That depends on the definition of the historian doing the research.

Nanking Incident or Massacre shoud be an incident which had happend in Nanking.

Maybe because there were a lot of bloodthirsty bastards in the JA?

They were not on holiday but on duty.Even if there had been lots of bloodthirsty bastards in the JA,there would be been no reason to allow them go out.

Why impossible? According to some estimates there may have been up to a million people in & around the city.

Which estimates? When were they estimated?

I don't, but I'm not a historian yet (esp. in that field of research).
The number 300,000 comes from different estimates. As you know, there are also other estimates. But all are just estimates, nobody knows for sure.

please give me one example of it.

AFAIK, there are some 120 Japanese ex-soldiers who told similar stories.

I agree that there were many misjudgement when they looked out guerillas.

Some Mr. Smith from Reuters witnessed 1000 Chinese standing tied up on a field. Then they were led away to be executed by a shot to their head. Smith watched roughly 100 of these executions until a Japanese officer noticed the group of foreigners & made them go away (p.117).

It was execution and under military order.

Rosen, from the German embassy, notes that inside the international safety zone alone the committee members & their employees witnessed hundreds of rapes ("Hunderte von Fﾃ､llen viehischer Vergewaltigungen unwiderleglich bezeugt" p.173f).

Rosen notes that.Did Rabe mention that he'd seen it?
AFAIK,the committee members just counted the numbers which had been claimed without any inspectioin.

Krﾃｶger, committee member, writes in a report that immediately after their arrival the Japanese troops went through refugee camps & in a few days killed roughly 5000 man without drumhead court-martial. These executions happened beside the river, so that the dead bodies could be easily disposed of (p.200).

Again,I agree they executed many suspects of guerilllas without court-martial.


Why don't you quote the incident which Robe witnessed?

 

[kiuyiw]

If it's a fact then you have to face it. Everyone knows the nanking massacre did happened before and it was simply a brutal slaughter. I don't know why Japanese goverment try to cover up the fact. Somebody said that Japanese has the ethnocentrism or pride and they don't want their offspring to know what they have done during the world war II . However, a nation should learn how to admit their fault before they can parade how great they are. Just like everyone of us, When you did something wrong, say sorry. when you broke somebody's car, you have to pay for it. You don't try to find excuse to cover it up. right? no insult here, I love japan but i think japan have done something which was not so pleasured by other countries people. China and Japan should be friend, they don't have so much different between their culture, language, architecture etc. They just like two brothers. It's very sad to see they are fighting each other.
when i talked to some of my chinese friend about japan. most of them acted very impetuosity. They all have the same reason. Japan did not admit nanking masscare, and changed the history book etc( always the same reason) so when you know the problem, How to slove it?


Look at the jews today, I have some jews friends, When they went to europe for their vacation, they never went to germany.Some of them even became angry when I was talking about germany in front of them. Even thought Germany already said sorry and recorded everything which happened during WWII. You may say that jews is so weird. they should look forward instead of remembering the past. Why are they still hate Germany? Nowadays's Germany people are not the same people who killed jews in the concentration camp. So why they still hate German? It seems unreasonable. but a miserable history is not that easy to forget. However, I think Chinese and Korean are more tolerant nation. Japan just have to do something to make two new friends, instead of going to Yasukuni Shrine every year to commemorate the top war criminal who killed thousant of people. A word to describe this "impenitence" . Can you imaging what Jews would do if germany people going to pay homage to Hitler every year? A war would happen immediately. I BET.

Just my opinion

I don't know why they didn't wanna write a letter of appology.
But I don't know why China need written apology.

Jesus! I can't believe you said that!
☝
China don't need a written apology, They just need Japan to do something that really shows the apology. such as? look at my top post.

 

[bossel]

Nanking Incident or Massacre shoud be an incident which had happend in Nanking.

You're obviously not a historian. Many events in history have been named after a place in the vicinity or, as in this case, after a centre of events. What's more "Massacre of Nanjing" is just a label, that doesn't mean that it was only one continuous event in only one strictly defined location. It may very well be a chain of events in a chain or cluster of locations. It all depends on the definition.

They were not on holiday but on duty.Even if there had been lots of bloodthirsty bastards in the JA,there would be been no reason to allow them go out.

Hmm, maybe they did it without good reason?
Japanese soldiers roamed the whole area. As Rabe noted there seemed to be a certain lack of discipline.

Which estimates? When were they estimated?

Here is one source for the number of 1m:
http://www.hxwz.com/njmassacre/nj.html

please give me one example of it.

Example for what?

It was execution and under military order.

By "military order", you mean the soldiers had orders to kill the POW's? Well, that would only relate to responsibilities. The fact of a massacre would not be touched.

AFAIK,the committee members just counted the numbers which had been claimed without any inspectioin.

Wrong. They left the safety zone quite often & had a look around.

Again,I agree they executed many suspects of guerilllas without court-martial.

Suspects? Not only, as it seems. Numerous women have been killed after being raped, numerous men seem to have been killed while trying to stop a rape.

Why don't you quote the incident which Robe witnessed?

As I said, I had only time to sift through the book & could not thouroughly read it, since I had to return it on Monday. If you're referring to the quote that I got from a website, I haven't found it.
But I have read about numerous instances when Rabe personally witnessed Japanese soldiers raping (or attempts of rape) Chinese women. Whether he himself witnessed killings, I can't say. But when you see Japanese soldiers leading away groups of people, later hear machine guns & then find the bodies of those led away, it's quite easy to assume who killed them.

What's more, the Japanese sometimes admitted the killings. Eg. in the case of more than 40 workers at a local power station, reason to kill them: the power station was state property.