hmm I'm neither japanese or chinese...can't u see the BELGIAN flag next to my country??? or maybe ur knowledge is limited to chinese and japanese history??Sam said:You know nothing about your history. What a pity! What a shame! Don't you think Japan an evildoer? If do, ask your government to apologize!!! Just be a man! It's a shame for your country live with the committed crimes in China and Korea.
Sam said:You know nothing about your history. What a pity! What a shame! Don't you think Japan an evildoer? If do, ask your government to apologize!!! Just be a man! It's a shame for your country live with the committed crimes in China and Korea.
urecco said:How could you deny all of these primary sourses?
Everybody says 300,000 killed is mainstream,thus I am wrong.
So I have been asking where the number 300,000 comes from.
Then what are the sourses of these books.
Why they use pictures with wrong citations?
It is a proof of inaccuracy of Iris' book and many websites.
You or Honda means 30,000 Chinese civilans were slaughtered in one day?
If Japanese newspaper boasted of many enemies killed,it will be no problem,right?
If Japanese newspaper boasted of many civilians killed,it will be the proof of Japanese brutality.
Japan had not been member of the League of Nations,before WWII broke up.
Anyway,please tell me when and in what conference invading another country became illegal.
Until you give evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong, that's the number I'm going to believe. I'm not denying these primary sources. They are what they are.
The books I cite that agree with a much higher number--I haven't had time to even read these books much less check into their sources. In this case, unless I want to devote a major amount of time and write my own book I am probably going to have to trust Encycopedia Britanica, Simon and Schuster, and the mainstream academic community all who say that hundreds of thousands were slaughtered.
By the way, Japan was a member of the League of Nations and was a signatory to the charter on January 10, 1920. Japan withdrew from the league on March 27, 1933. Japan couldn't seem to understand Europe's hypocracy in dealing with colonialism-- The US, Britain, France and Germany could take territory and conquer nations, but Japan was condemned for similar actions. Furthermore they were still upset about being left outside at the Versailles conference, and about having to give back German colonial posessions it fought for and won.
I can understand the legal song and dance about invading other countries, but I do think that waging a war of agression should be criminal (Even if it mean G.W. Bush would be charged.) For the record, Colonialism, imperialism, mass murder and genocide are all wrong and should be prosecuted by some world court. The "Crimes Against Humanity" charge leveled at Germany and Japan after WWII weren't based upon some written charter, but were based on the belief that some actions were so vile and so clearly wrong that people should universally recognize a standard of right and wrong and follow a much more basic higher principle.
These primary sources are evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong.sabro said:Until you give evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong, that's the number I'm going to believe. I'm not denying these primary sources. They are what they are.
sabro said:I can understand the legal song and dance about invading other countries, but I do think that waging a war of agression should be criminal (Even if it mean G.W. Bush would be charged.) For the record, Colonialism, imperialism, mass murder and genocide are all wrong and should be prosecuted by some world court. The "Crimes Against Humanity" charge leveled at Germany and Japan after WWII weren't based upon some written charter, but were based on the belief that some actions were so vile and so clearly wrong that people should universally recognize a standard of right and wrong and follow a much more basic higher principle.
urecco said:These primary sources are evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong.
Retrospective law is forbidden.People need to have the law before political leader start invading.
For you,does the record of buried 45,000 corpses mean only the number of corpses is incredibly high?sabro said:The primary sources you cite may suggest that the number is unreasonably high but only if that is your predisposition. How did a German diplomat come by these numbers? How was the Smythe survey done and what deaths does it include? How many deaths did Rabe see and was he just reporting murders in the "International Zone?" I would suggest that he is accurately reporting what he knew and saw. His lower estimate is understandable considering no one person witnessed the 300,000 murders. How many of the chinese were buried-- how many small villages in the surrounding countryside were wiped out entirely? How many were forced to dig their own graves and have disappeared from history? I'm certain that the academic sources and authors that I cited have a good reason to believe the higher estimate. I'm also certain that if you had irrefutable proof that the number was substantially inflated or that only one or two hundred feeble chinese men were killed and the rest just left the area to start a large coffee chain lots and lots of media attention and millions of dollars would be yours for the taking.
sabro said:Retrospective law is forbidden? forbidden by whom? International law is funny. It doesn't follow rules like national constitutional laws do. The Nuremburg trials depended entirely upon ex post facto "retrospective" law. Are you suggesting that all those Nazi war criminals were innocent? that they should have gotten away with mass murder? Should the few Japanese war criminals have gotten away with it? Killing one person is murder, but killing millions is okay?
If you believed my estimate,Japanese army never systematically and intentionally killed civilians.Admittedly,there were many victims of civilians.sabro said:Even if I accepted your estimate, the Japanese military was guilty of killing thousands and thousands of innocent civillians. Beyond Nanjing, the Japanese killed millions. Was no one responsible? Is there no remorse? No guilt? Is this why there is no appology-- because no one did anything wrong? Several of the sources that I mentioned cite the accounts of Japanese soldiers-- Look at what they say happened, look at how they say the "war" was conducted. It leaves no doubt in my mind that a great attrocity of massive proportions was committed.
urecco said:For you,does the record of buried 45,000 corpses mean only the number of corpses is incredibly high?
Robe's guessed number is obviously come from buried record.
Smythe asked thousands families and multified the number considering the total population in Nanking.
Buried record is the record.
About the villages,Chinese army had wiped out entirely before Japanese Army came in order to make it impossible to loot or buy foods from the villiages.
Of course,Japanese Army might have done some or most of it,but who knows?
How could Chinese histrians count the number of corpses which had disappeared from history?
What is the sources which you believe?
Retrospective law is forbidden in modern society.
As far as I know,hitler did not give the order to kill Jews officially,if they killed Jews secretly,it was illegal and murder.Thus they are not innocent.
Bringing Jews to the facilities would havebeen lawful at that time,so nobody deserves death penalty.Apparently,Americans brought Japanese Americans to similar facility.And probably nobody was prosecuted.
Was Stalin prosecuted?
Was Mao prosecuted?
Anyway,who was executed for invading besides Japanese and German.
If you believed my estimate,Japanese army never systematically and intentionally killed civilians.Admittedly,there were many victims of civilians.
At least in Nanking, most of them were misjudged as guerrila.That's why guerrila fight was forbidden.
I never deny personal crimes.But they happen everywhere.
You said,"why there is no appology?",yet there are several appologies for invading.Because invading was bad,even though it was not illegal.
BTW,do you agree that Iris and many websites use photoes with inaccurate explaination?
Do you agree that many websites and even historians are propagating the fake story that Japanese newspapers boasted the number of civilians killed?
Sabro...look at the post above yours..*rolls eyes*sabro said:Rocklee- Don't you live in Belgium?
tsktsk...RockLee said:hmm I'm neither japanese or chinese...can't u see the BELGIAN flag next to my country??? or maybe ur knowledge is limited to chinese and japanese history??
Do you mean I am wrong just because I'm a kind of revisionists?sabro said:Again the sources which I believe are the widely accepted ones, those old textbooks, encyclopedias and the books I already cited. Yes, they are secondary sources, but they are trusted ones. As I have no access to primary sources-- and no ability to read Chinese or Japanese, It is unlikely that I will do any original research.
I don't know whether Nuremburg trial was totally illegal,because although retrospective law was forbidden in modern society,I guess there was not written international law about it.So I just say it was totally unfair and evil.sabro said:I think it is generally agreed that Hitler was directly responsibly for the Holocaust. We can start this thread-- the how guilty was Hitler, but let's not get silly-- the guy was evil. You honestly can't believe that the Nazi regime was not criminally responsible for their behavior. If you are right about retrospective law, then the whole Nuremburg trial was illegal.
Then were anyone prosecuted?sabro said:America's concentration camps were criminal violations of constitutional rights. My mother and her family were in one of those relocation camps for Japanese Americans. She recieved an apology and reparations. But Manzanar was no Aushwitz. You can't compare the two.
Can it be called "law"?sabro said:Stalin and Mao should have been charged. But I guess the unwritten rule is that you have to lose the war to get charged.
was it law?I think it's a rule inside of the League of Nations.sabro said:As for the invasion being illegal-- Japan's war criminals including Tojo were charged with the illegal invasion of China and were executed. Japan signed the League Charter making it illegal.
Is that "kill all,burn all,loot all"?sabro said:That the Japanese Army didn't target civillians- were those comfort women civillians? Systematic and intentional are accurate description of Imperial military policy. More than two thirds of the deaths in china- some sources say 90% were civillians- If they weren't the targets, then the Japanese were untrained, undisciplined and incredibly poor shots. It sounds intentional and sytematic to me.
I said many websites and Iris used fake photoes.sabro said:I can't answer about accuracy the photo descriptions and newspaper stories. I actually can't read Japanese. I wasn't there when the photos were taken. I don't think it changes the fact that Japan committed attrocities which include the Rape of Nanking in the 1937- 1945 time period. Look it up in a good Japanese college text book.
Could you give me the url of the website where I can see the specific records.sabro said:another source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) by Timothy Brook (Editor) I haven't had time to read this one either.
The source of the number 300,000: in 1945 the International Military Tribunal for the Far East determined that the number massacred in and around Nanking for period December 1937 to February 1938 exceeded 260,000, and that the final number is probably much higher. They cite specific records, which are public and can found on the internet. A local war crimes trial set the number at 190,000 which attempted to exclude about 30 to 40 thousand Chinese soldiers. Ohata Hisao confessed that 150,000 bodies were disposed of by the Japanese. Unless you are a right wing revisionist (and a total loon) you kinda have to admit that the number is over 100,000.
Accoridng to Charles A Lindberg,American Army generally killed Japanese surredered soldiers and sometimes POWs.sabro said:Incidently for Urecco's information: The massacre at Malmedy in Dec. of 1944 of 86 American POW's (you're not supposed to kill POW's) was followed by an illegal "order" for US troops not to take SS prisoners. On new years day 1945, the 11th Armored Division rounded up and shot 60 prisoners at Chenogne. Several officers were disciplined, but no courts martial were held and the penalties were relatively light. (During the Battle of the Bulge, all the units and their commanders were needed.) The US order to not accept SS surrender was rescinded. The killing of surrendering SS units was for the most part ignored. (Wermacht units recieved good treatment.)
I don't critisize only Iris.Because Iris just repeated the thing Chinese gov't claimed.She was not a histrian.sabro said:"All the pictures in my book have been in the public domain for some time, in books, newspapers, museums. And of course, I did not manipulate any of the pictures or captions. The revisionists who make such charges are unable to come up with any solid evidence to back up their serious - and often ludicrous - allegations. That is why most American historians put these revisionists in the same category as deniers of the Jewish Holocaust or Armenian Genocide. " - Iris Chang, October 1998 Ronza (Translation)
I absolutely agree. The fault is entirely mine. I was joking with you because Sam wanted you to appologize and you are from Belgium. I don't know much about Belgium's history, but it seems to be one of the few countries with no "bad stuff" in the recent past. (thus absolutely nothing to appologize for.) I sincerely appreciate your input and I appologize for my use of sarcasm-- which comes across quite poorly in electronic communication.RockLee said:Sabro, I seem to forget where I fit in all this??? look "wise" man....it's before my time...what happened in the past is not my responsibility or is it??
I don't want the website for the Tokyo trial.I want the website with "specific records."Do you mean the decision of Tokyo trail? Alough you said over 260,000 killed had been determined in Tokyo trail,it was wrong.It'd be Iris' or your mistake.They said over 200,000 were killed.Anyway,I want to know why they decided over 200,000 were killed.What evidence wat it based on?sabro said:IUrecco, I think you need to examine your motives for wanting to rewrite one of the darkest chapters in human history into some bad episode of Pokemon. It seems to me that you are grasping at whatever garbage you can latch onto that makes Japan look less guilty, and disgarding the mountain of evidence which the world, and every sixth grader in Louisiana accepts as truth. You wanted sources. I gave you sources. You want the website for the International Tribunal for the Far East, do what I did. It took three seconds- go to Google. Type it in. Press search. You will find 4573 sites that you can deny the validity of.
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' Chapter II ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv'æ"ñÍFurthermore, The Testimony of the Survivors of the Nanking Massacre insisted on saying that mass murders took place and that more than 190,000 corpses were completely burnt. I was asserting 'murders without corpses'. Who could believe such incredible testimonies that 190,000 corpses left no traces?
Is there any other systematic murder?sabro said:Japan's crimes weren't here and there. They weren't occasional. They weren't aberations. They were practiced, systematic, and institutional. This is how Japan conducted the war. and Germany and Japan did more than lose the war-- they started the war. You can dispute this, refute it with bad evidence and goofy logic, but you can't change this.
You've just said mainstream is alway correct.That's it.sabro said:I can throw fact after fact, give source after source, and reason with all the logic I can muster. But I think it won't make one bit of difference. I think if Urecco was shown a film of the massacre which included confessions of military leaders, and long lists of statistics, and the exact location of each of the mass graves...It wouldn't be enough.
So the Tokyo trail was wrong. All the textbooks are wrong. Iris Chang is wrong. The official account is wrong. Professional historians are wrong. I'm wrong, everyone else is wrong, but you know better.urecco said:I don't want the website for the Tokyo trial.I want the website with "specific records."Do you mean the decision of Tokyo trail? Alough you said over 260,000 killed had been determined in Tokyo trail,it was wrong.It'd be Iris' or your mistake.They said over 200,000 were killed.Anyway,I want to know why they decided over 200,000 were killed.What evidence wat it based on?
The book you site is generally regarded as right wing revisionist propaganda. If that's not extremist, what is?urecco said:As I said before, I am not a extremist.My opinion is very similar to the opinion on the website underneath in general.
If you(sabro) or anyone have time,please look through this website.
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv
urecco said:You've just said mainstream is alway correct.That's it.
Every revisionist says mainstream is wrong by showing evidence.
For example,in Nuremberg trail they concluded the number of Jews who had been intentionally killed in Aushwitz was 4 million.The evidence was only confession.However,after the trial,the guy who confessed stated that they killed not 4 million but about 1 million people.In addition,it was found in 80's that the guy had been severely tortured.If you believed the number of 4 million,would you say "Encyclopedia says 4 million,so you are wrong"?
You would not say like that.You should examine the fact of torture or search other evidence beside the confession.Right?
Similarly,if you believe 300,000 or even 200,000 killed,you should deny Smythe's survey and Robe's report with logic.
urecco said:Have you given me any real evidence of 300,000 killed?
urecco said:Your knowledge completely biases agaist Japan.
Before you deny everything,you should read any website written by a revisionist.
Now you might assert that even the Tanaka memorial is true.
The tokyo trail was wrong.It should not be called "trail",sabro said:So the Tokyo trail was wrong. All the textbooks are wrong. Iris Chang is wrong. The official account is wrong. Professional historians are wrong. I'm wrong, everyone else is wrong, but you know better.
You say what you don't want to accept is "right wing revisionist propaganda."sabro said:The book you site is generally regarded as right wing revisionist propaganda. If that's not extremist, what is?
I am not facusing nazis' Holocaust,but your way of denial.sabro said:I never said that mainstream is always correct. I said mainstream is usually correct. (I thought my horses/zebras metaphor was so clever...sigh) Check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me." It's a good book on where US history text books get the story wrong. What I said is the ball is in your court to prove the official account incorrect. You fumbled. The fact that now you are even excusing Nazi's for their crimes and trying to minimize the Holocaust is chilling. A holocaust denier and historical revisionist- this is not evidence of logical thinking and good reasoning. Flawed logic does not change facts.
Of cause I have.sabro said:Have you given me any real evidence that 300,000 weren't killed?
I think not answering revisionist drivel is a reasonable course whensabro said:Luc, Sam, Bossel, RockLee...can you help me out here. I don't think revisionist drivel should ever be unanswered.
Oh well, apparently you hadn't.mad pierrot said:
"The neighboring six counties shouldn't be included in the discussion of the Nanking Atrocities," maintains Hata Ikuhiko, a professor at Nihon University. Hata thinks the "definition" must be in accordance with the one announced in the IMTFE judgment, which states, "This orgy of crime started with the capture of the City on the 13th December 1937 and did not cease until early in February 1938."
This is a very sensitive and emotional issue for Chinese. Especially the number issue [the number of victims (see In the 1990s)] is very sensitive in China. And secondly, Chinese scholars are not fully up-to-date on Japanese research or Japanese sources. In a sense they are handicapped to appreciate the kind of research done in Japan.
The books or something you cited contain at least one totally silly mistake.Q: In Japan, some people question the credibility of historical materials such as Timperley's book (see Psychological Warfare) and the news stories about Hyakunin Giri [the contest to kill 100 Chinese soldiers with sword] (see Postwar Judgment). What do you think about their claims?
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & VideosIn China the figure of 300,000, the death toll reckoned at the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, is the official estimate engraved on the stone wall at the entrance of the Qin-Hua Rijun Nanjing Datsusha Yunan Tongbao Jinianguan, or the Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre
im passe ﾃ穫.urecco said:Thank you.that's a really nice article.
I know the death toll depends on the definition.
but I completely agree Hata's comment.
What do you think about this article?
Oh goody. I can rest easy knowing that it was only soldiers that were murdered in cold blood. I'm certain the women that were raped were soldiers. The guys being used for bayonet practice...probably soldiers too. those famous pictures of dead children, a burned infant, a crying baby at the train station...all little soldiers. Dead yes. Innocent no. Japan did the world a favor by engaging in an unprecented orgy of murder, looting, and violence.urecco said:Sabro,about 100 killed.Although I said the the newspaper boasted the number of civilians killed was mistranslation,you said you do not know the truth because you can't read Japanese.This website says it was the contest to kill soldiers.
Yes. The number is an estimate. Again, it may be higher. It may be lower. I believe an attrocity of massive proportions happened in Nanking and nearby in the three month period previously mentioned. I also believe that it is all but forgotten and the victims deserved to be remembered. I now believe that there is a right wing revisionist movement underway to deny, hide, and minimize Japanese war crimes during WWII including this massacre-- and for the sake of humanity, peace, and the future of Japan, that this movement needs to be stopped.urecco said:Do you still think 300,000 people were killed in Nanking city and nearby?
The mainsteam say 300,000 victims do not contain the victims died in Shanghai or anywhere,even though Nanking Massacre includes massacres which happened in six surround contries.