mikecash said:I need clarification on the reference to lack of "relative sentences". Do you mean a lack of a grammatical structure that serves the same function as relative clauses in English? Because if you do....they have one.
Maciamo said:There is no equivalent of "which, that, who, whose, whom", etc. In Japanese the relative clause comes in front of the word or sentence to which it is related. That makes it very impractical to make complex sentences, which I affectionate particularily. Sometimes it is impossible, but even when it is, very often it is difficult to understand because you have to wait to say the relative clause before knowing what is the main subject of the sentence.
I am just trying to find an explanation to why Japanese always speak using (very) short sentences. If you don't think it is due to the clumsiness the grammatical structure, then what is the reason (lack of ability to conceive or understand complex sentences ? - I wouldn't dare to say that)
mikecash said:I can't say that I have ever noticed that same faults with the relative clause formation in Japanese. They serve the purpose quite well. I have never thought them impractical or impossible.
Nor have I ever noticed that Japanese always speak using short sentences. Sentences tend to be of a length necessary to convey all the pertinent information. Of course, what is obvious from context need not be stated, which can lead to utterances which seem unnaturally short to speakers of languages like English. I have no experience with any languages other than English and Japanese, so I don't wish to offer conjecture related to them.
Mikecashさんの考え方で合っています。mikecash said:I can't say that I have ever noticed that same faults with the relative clause formation in Japanese. They serve the purpose quite well. I have never thought them impractical or impossible.
Nor have I ever noticed that Japanese always speak using short sentences. Sentences tend to be of a length necessary to convey all the pertinent information. Of course, what is obvious from context need not be stated, which can lead to utterances which seem unnaturally short to speakers of languages like English. I have no experience with any languages other than English and Japanese, so I don't wish to offer conjecture related to them.
Elizabeth said:Because you can't say something in the vein of "I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year." and all clauses and phrases need to at least have an implied particle, the entire language is somehow irreparably deficient and doomed from the outset ?
You can't say something like that in Japanese? That's news to me.Elizabeth said:Because you can't say something in the vein of "I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year." and all clauses and phrases need to at least have an implied particle, the entire language is somehow irreparably deficient and doomed from the outset ?
As a written example it looks fine (Except for the "traveling around"...., working a series of part-time jobs may be most natural ? and "interest earned" bits). The point being even in spoken English (or maybe more so) you can I believe theoretically use a greater number of parenthetical qualifiers which at some point become completely unintelligible in spoken Japanese.jt_ said:You can't say something like that in Japanese? That's news to me.
僕はね・・・継父が5年前に継いだ、ミネソタ州の工場で去年の夏にガラス技師(?)のバイトして貯金したお金で、来年結婚する妹の結婚祝いにガーネットのネックレスを買ってあげることにしたんだ。
The above sentence is probably unnatural for two reasons:
1) My Japanese is far from perfect. Still, I'm sure a native speaker (or someone closer to native than myself) could make some slight tweaks in it to make it sound natural enough.
2) The original sentence, while completely grammatical English, is _not_ something that native speakers would utter naturally as is. It's _much_ more natural to break up sentences into easy-to-digest thoughts when you speak. "You know my sister who's getting married next year? I've decided to use the money I saved up last summer to get her a garnet necklace for her wedding present. I was working as a glass technician in my stepdad's factory -- yeah, he's got this factory in Minnesota that he inherited a few years ago."
そして、日本の新聞やは読者が喜ぶような書き方をしている場合が多いことは否定できません。- they can't think by themselves, and believe the media, commercials or what people tell them much too easily
Sorry, I wrote that quickly (and poorly) and missed some parts. It's far from a perfect example, but I think it at least shows that the type of sentence structure isn't impossible in Japanese.Elizabeth said:As a written example it looks fine (Except for the "traveling around"...., working a series of part-time jobs may be most natural ? and "interest earned" bits). The point being even in spoken English (or maybe more so) you can I believe theoretically use a greater number of parenthetical qualifiers which at some point become completely unintelligible in spoken Japanese.
Obviously it isn't incapable, just markedly less so than English. And for these purposes I'm more interested in what is intelligible, rather than natural,speechBut my other point is that nobody would really say a sentence that long and involved in English either. In speech, it's _natural_ to break things down in such a way that the person you're talking to will understand everything. Especially if the listener isn't familiar with the factory in question, or doesn't know your kid sister, no native speaker would just naturally ramble off this string of complex modifiers.
If the issue is just parenthetical qualifiers in speech, I don't see how these are so awkward in Japanese either.
"I'm thinking of going to that new ramen shop by the station -- yeah, that one that was on TV the other day, and that everyone's been saying is so good."
「駅前の新しいラーメン屋に行こうと思ってる――そうそう、このあいだテレビに出てた、なんかみんなすごく美味しいって言ってた店」
...or something like that. Again, the naturalness of my Japanese may not be 100% perfect, but still -- I'm just not seeing it. I've never found that the Japanese language is actually incapable of forming "complex" sentences or sentences with multiple relative clauses or anything like that.