One problems with my learning of Japanese

[Northern Comfort]

I've been learning Japanese for about 6 months now and the problem I find is I remember a certain word, then I forget it in a months time, and using the langauge doesn't seem to help, I speak to Japanese change students at my school quite regulary so I can't say I don't use the language, yet, a lot of the time I'm stuck for a certain word and can't remember it till I go back to a dictionary. It seems to be happening for a lot of words you use regulary though.

Can you suggest any good method for remembering vocabuary?

 

[nice gaijin]

Try identifying these words that you have trouble remembering and practice writing the kanji for them several times over. It also helps to try to use them as often as possible; the more often you use a word the less likely you'll forget it. Lastly I would suggest trying to associate something with learning the word, like "Oh I know shiritsu 私立 and kokuritsu 国立 mean private and publicly founded, because yokohama kokuritsu is a public college and waseda is private. Furthermore, knowing the kanji helps me remember the word itself, and the meaning.

 

[Sensuikan San]

I've been learning Japanese for about 6 months now and the problem I find is I remember a certain word, then I forget it in a months time, and using the langauge doesn't seem to help, I speak to Japanese change students at my school quite regulary so I can't say I don't use the language, yet, a lot of the time I'm stuck for a certain word and can't remember it till I go back to a dictionary. It seems to be happening for a lot of words you use regulary though.
Can you suggest any good method for remembering vocabuary?

Infection, as a (bad) learner of Japanese - I have the same problem.

The basis of the problem is that Japanese (or any other non-Indo-European language) has no linguistic connection with English. If you're learning French, Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch etc. etc. then you're dealing with languages that share roots (one way or another - Latin or Germanic) with English. Vocabularies are much more intertwined than you may first observe.

Japanese (Mandarin, Cantonese, Thai etc. etc.) is quite different - you can't "take a shot at it"!

Listen to Nice Gaijin's words well! It's possibly the only way to do it!

I would sugest that this is one of the main problems that a "Western speaker" has to overcome.

The good news is (if it makes you/us feel better!) is that Oriental language speakers have the same problem!

Good luck, Take care.

ジョン

 

[bentenmusume]

I've been learning Japanese for about 6 months now and the problem I find is I remember a certain word, then I forget it in a months time, and using the langauge doesn't seem to help, I speak to Japanese change students at my school quite regulary so I can't say I don't use the language, yet, a lot of the time I'm stuck for a certain word and can't remember it till I go back to a dictionary. It seems to be happening for a lot of words you use regulary though.
Can you suggest any good method for remembering vocabuary?

You shouldn't be too hard on yourself after only six months. Even people who have been studying the language for years forget words now and then (in fact, native speakers aren't even immune to this.)

You say you're using the language, which is good. Whenever you forget something, you can ask about it, or just remember it and look it up later. In my case, I generally would feel so stupid about forgetting a word that I felt I should know that I would be that much more motivated not to let myself forget it again.

Learning a language is just like this -- lots of forgetting, relearning, and reinforcement. Also, as your Japanese gets better, you'll be able to speak/read/write/understand more, which means you'll have more opportunities to reinforce everything.

In other words, don't let the small pitfalls get to you too much. Just keep going with it and you'll be fine.

 

[Pachipro]

Learning a language is just like this -- lots of forgetting, relearning, and reinforcement. Also, as your Japanese gets better, you'll be able to speak/read/write/understand more, which means you'll have more opportunities to reinforce everything.

In other words, don't let the small pitfalls get to you too much. Just keep going with it and you'll be fine.

I agree. After only six months, I wouldn't worry too much. The fact that you're trying to communicate and making a sincere effort is to be commended Infection.

Remembering words, phrases, kanji, etc. only comes with months and months of practice. Especially when you are not immersed in the culture. Since I learned the language while actually living there, I was exposed to it 24/7/365. I discovered that once I used a new word or phrase in actual conversation that I hardly ever forgot it afterwards. The key was remembering to use it. Sometimes I would forget, but when I finally remembered it, it stuck with me permanently.

Now that I am living here in the states and do not speak it as much as I did while living there I have forgotten alot of words and phrases and really have to search my memory for them when I return to Japan. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. (Don't as me why my Japanese wife and I do not speak Japanese here in the US, but do so in Japan. Weird, but I understand it.) However, once I can recall that particular word or phrase it again stays with me.

So don't worry. It will come to you in time and with practice in normal conversation. And once you finally recall that word or phrase and actually use it, you'll see that it will stay with you as long as you are speaking on a regular basis. Good luck!

 

[WHEATTHlNS]

I would venture that if you SAW the word in a sentence - you'd be able to read it. I dont think youre FORGETTING words - its simply their frequency of use isnt very high. In that case I would recommend FLASH CARDS or AUDIO CD's with vocabularly on them - something to not only reinforce the visual, but the audio as well.

One of the MAJOR problems I've seen with students and classes, is that there is almost ZERO focus put on cummulative teaching, in that you learn one thing, and move on, never to have a lesson or quiz about what you just learned again, and the old stuff is integrated into the new as if its concrete in the brain now.

 

[bentenmusume]

I would venture that if you SAW the word in a sentence - you'd be able to read it. I dont think youre FORGETTING words - its simply their frequency of use isnt very high.

This is another thing, too, where a learner's current level of proficiency determines what words are and aren't in "frequent use." When you've only been studying the language for six months and it's still a struggle to understand and produce even very simple sentences, many words will seem obscure because you just aren't taking in or producing Japanese at a high enough level to encounter them frequently. As you gain proficiency, and are able to read/understand "real" Japanese at a deeper level and greater speed, you give yourself more opportunities to encounter more complex words more and more often.

For example, I wouldn't recommend a first-year Japanese student who is still struggling with the て-form of verbs to spend excessive time trying to memorize a word like 可能性 (just for a random example) -- it would be pointless, because even if they could remember that it means "possibility", they wouldn't be capable of understanding or participating in the kind of conversation (or reading the sort of text) in which 可能性 would turn up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: don't sweat it when you forget a word. It'll stick eventually, but not until you reach the level where it has a reason to stick.

One of the MAJOR problems I've seen with students and classes, is that there is almost ZERO focus put on cumulative teaching, in that you learn one thing, and move on, never to have a lesson or quiz about what you just learned again, and the old stuff is integrated into the new as if its concrete in the brain now.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Learning a language is cumulative simply by nature, something which you touch upon in your comment. It's not like you learn one structure and then never see it again -- you see it in different contexts, and in conjunction with new structures/new vocabulary/etc., which serves to reinforce the old material and allows you to deepen your understanding of the various ways in which it can be used.

It sounds more like you're just saying that classes move too fast -- you're going on to new things before you've had time to master the old stuff. Maybe this just means you need to devote more time to studying, or to reviewing past material.

 

[nhk9]

This is another thing, too, where a learner's current level of proficiency determines what words are and aren't in "frequent use." When you've only been studying the language for six months and it's still a struggle to understand and produce even very simple sentences, many words will seem obscure because you just aren't taking in or producing Japanese at a high enough level to encounter them frequently. As you gain proficiency, and are able to read/understand "real" Japanese at a deeper level and greater speed, you give yourself more opportunities to encounter more complex words more and more often.
For example, I wouldn't recommend a first-year Japanese student who is still struggling with the て-form of verbs to spend excessive time trying to memorize a word like 可能性 (just for a random example) -- it would be pointless, because even if they could remember that it means "possibility", they wouldn't be capable of understanding or participating in the kind of conversation (or reading the sort of text) in which 可能性 would turn up.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: don't sweat it when you forget a word. It'll stick eventually, but not until you reach the level where it has a reason to stick.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Learning a language is cumulative simply by nature, something which you touch upon in your comment. It's not like you learn one structure and then never see it again -- you see it in different contexts, and in conjunction with new structures/new vocabulary/etc., which serves to reinforce the old material and allows you to deepen your understanding of the various ways in which it can be used.
It sounds more like you're just saying that classes move too fast -- you're going on to new things before you've had time to master the old stuff. Maybe this just means you need to devote more time to studying, or to reviewing past material.

This is very well said, I can't agree more. That's why they say most books in the "teach yourself" series are not that great simply because they introduce many advanced words in the beginning stages of introducing a language.

Anyway you just need to find a topic that interests you and try to read those articles in JAPANESE. Eventually the words shall stick.

 

[WHEATTHlNS]

It sounds more like you're just saying that classes move too fast.

Not at all. Ill liken it to a math class - or even a chemistry or sociology. In each of these classes, or in well written books, past exercises (or recent exercises) are integrated into NEW material. Not in the same in-depth nature as it was originally introduced, but it still revisits the material in some way (a reminder on how to conjugate certain verbs, or the difference between transitive/intransitive verbs). In other classes you have this AS WELL AS self-review. I havent seen any JAPANESE class structured this way. You finish Chapter 6, move on, and a recap/reminded/extra-exercises associated with old material is NEVER covered just assumed to be up to be now concrete.

It also doesnt help that (again in the classes I've taken) barely ANY focus is placed on actual grammar knowledge beyond in class exercises, homework and midterms. The only constant quizzing that is done is on vocabularly and KANJI.

If your classes arent like this - thats good. It's not THAT critical, but when it comes time for LISTENING COMPREHENSION - then its a problem, because at this point you arent "comprehending" at your own speed (such as when you are readin) but at the mercy of the speaker.

 

[bentenmusume]

Not at all. Ill liken it to a math class - or even a chemistry or sociology. In each of these classes, or in well written books, past exercises (or recent exercises) are integrated into NEW material. Not in the same in-depth nature as it was originally introduced, but it still revisits the material in some way (a reminder on how to conjugate certain verbs, or the difference between transitive/intransitive verbs). In other classes you have this AS WELL AS self-review. I havent seen any JAPANESE class structured this way. You finish Chapter 6, move on, and a recap/reminded/extra-exercises associated with old material is NEVER covered just assumed to be up to be now concrete.

I'm still not sure exactly what the problem is. If you need to review a particular verb form or whatever, how hard is it to go back to that chapter and look it over again? It sounds like you're saying you just want more class time spent on "review." I don't know where you're studying Japanese, but in most college classes at least, there generally isn't much of this, simply because classes have to move at a decent pace in order to cover everything. Besides, everything is cumulative anyway (it's not like you learn the difference between transitive/intransitive verbs and then never see them again) so there's less need for overt review.

It also doesnt help that (again in the classes I've taken) barely ANY focus is placed on actual grammar knowledge beyond in class exercises, homework and midterms. The only constant quizzing that is done is on vocabularly and KANJI.

I would agree that this isn't a good thing at all. Especially at the early stages of learning, internalizing grammar/sentence structure is just as important (more important, actually) than vocabulary and kanji. It really doesn't make sense not to test students on it.

If your classes arent like this - thats good. It's not THAT critical, but when it comes time for LISTENING COMPREHENSION - then its a problem, because at this point you arent "comprehending" at your own speed (such as when you are readin) but at the mercy of the speaker.

Eh... I think the only truly effective way to improve listening comprehension is to actively listen to Japanese outside of class. Actually, this goes for reading, speaking, and everything really.

One of the biggest misconceptions among beginning students is the idea that class and class alone is enough to really master the language. I was naive like this when I started learning. I was 19 years old, and I really thought that all I had to do was major in Japanese and finish my university's course sequence (through fourth-year Japanese), and then I would somehow be "fluent" (and "literate") in Japanese. Fortunately, it didn't take me too long to wake up to reality.

The best you can expect from a good Japanese class is that it will give you the tools that _you_ can then use on the road to advanced proficiency/fluency/what-have-you.

 

[WHEATTHlNS]

I'm still not sure exactly what the problem is.

Its not a problem. Its a criticism.

If you need to review a particular verb form or whatever, how hard is it to go back to that chapter and look it over again?

As noted above, thats already done. The two methods are seperate.

It sounds like you're saying you just want more class time spent on "review."

No Im not - at least not in the sense you're proposing.

I don't know where you're studying Japanese

At an acredited college by a native Japanese with a masters in Japanese and teaching. . .

but in most college classes at least, there generally isn't much of this, simply because classes have to move at a decent pace in order to cover everything.

I disagree - and perhaps this is a flaw in the structure of Japanese Classes that should be addressed.

Besides, everything is cumulative anyway (it's not like you learn the difference between transitive/intransitive verbs and then never see them again) so there's less need for overt review.

Of course its cummulative - all learning is. The PROCESS of reinforment and retention though should be a lot better than "Go back and review homework for instruction on how to use volitional forms of verbs". THAT is the crux of the criticism of the current method it looks like MOST of these classes suffer from: an inability to integrate past exercises and lessons into current models beyond "reread homework/chapter" which ONLY contains material learned up to that point.

Math Books (the ones Ive used) dont have this curiosity (and if its a curiosity only I see - so be it), as they constantly reference old material and structure.