Negative opinions/stereotypes against Japan

[The7thSamurai]

Of course they look at your face and think you speak english, japan is full of americans. even when i speak to then using my accent they think im american but i dont get this upset about it. And of course i wouldnt presume an asian is Japanese in fact its more likely ill think chinese because of the big population here but if you re-read my post it said Not using english...what other language would a Japanese person use in england? Not spainish thats for sure. All of the things you have complained about have never happened to me or anyone i know while they have been in Japan. The last option is if it bothers you so much why dont you go back to your own country.

Umm, maybe you should re-read this entire thread from the beginning. What exactly are "all of the things" I am complaining about? I started this thread to say that the things that other foreigners complain about rarely happen to me! Go on, re-read it again. In my latter posts I was simply saying that in the odd occasion when I'm spoken to in English when there's no reason for it I find it annoying and a little rude.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Well first of all I'm talking about being addressed in English BEFORE the other person even knows that I speak English. For example, I walk into a convenience store, by a bento, and the clerk asks me IN ENGLISH "want hot??" (as in whether or not I want the bento heated). It's kind of rude that they didn't ask me in Japanese to begin with, in my opinion.
And as for your second point, if was in England I wouldn't automatically assume that any Asian I happened to see was Japanese. If 1) that person happened to ask me for help, and 2) I somehow determined they were Japanese, and 3) they weren't able to speak English, then yeah of course I'd help them out in Japanese.


No, the fact that these people see a white face and automatically think that I don't speak Japanese stinks of ignorance. Anyway, like I said before, I'll accept it at touristy places in Japan as of course most of the whities who go there are likely tourists who don't speak any Japanese, but I won't accept it in any other area. Luckily for me this doesn't happen much anyway.

Bucko, I know what you are saying, but you have to understand that a lot ofﾂ（窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ?）oubei people cannot speak understanderble Japanese if at all. On top of that, if that particular shop sees many of those people I would see it as a natural reaction.

It comes down to what you are able to accept as an outsider here, b/c no matter how great your Japanese is you will always have a non-Japanese face. I can remember getting all upset when people used to talk English to me too, why? B/c I wanted them to speak Japanese so that I could improve my Japanese. I think what Obeika is saying is that it comes down what reason you have to get offened, they are showing you great respect by at least attempting to speak English to you. To me it sounds like you want people to acnowledge the fact that you are putting some serious hours in studing Japanese and want to be treated that way, I can understand that, but the sales person is doing only what they feel is right. I sometimes get spoken to in English and I usually reply in Japanese b/c I don't want to make a 1 miniute conversation into a 5 miniute one. By doing this the person realised pretty quickly that you have no problem in speaking Japanese.

Bucko watch your veiws change as time goes by.

 

[Taiko666]

The last option is if it bothers you so much why dont you go back to your own country.

I find this sort of comment completely unhelpful and usually ruins an otherwise good post.

 

[The7thSamurai]

they are showing you great respect by at least attempting to speak English to you.

So you say, and I believe you, but I still can't get my head around it. How about this situation, for example:

Me: すみません、ここで電池を売りますか (excuse me, do you sell batteries here?)
Shop assistant: はい、売りますよ。こちらにあります。 (yes, they're just here)
Me: ああ、そうですね。あの・・・、ダブル・エイのを一つお願いします (oh, they are too. Ok, well one pack of double As please)
Shop assistant: (grabs the batteries from behind) スリーハンドレッド円 (in katakana English, "three hundred en")
Me: (confused) ええ、いくらいでしょうか？
Shope assistant: (brings out the calculator and types in "300" and shows it to me)

I was like what?? Our whole conversation before was in Japanese! Anyway, of course this happened at one of the most touristy places in Kyoto .

To me it sounds like you want people to acnowledge the fact that you are putting some serious hours in studing Japanese and want to be treated that way, I can understand that, but the sales person is doing only what they feel is right.

You've pretty much got it spot on there I think.

 

[KirinMan]

No, the fact that these people see a white face and automatically think that I don't speak Japanese stinks of ignorance. Anyway, like I said before, I'll accept it at touristy places in Japan as of course most of the whities who go there are likely tourists who don't speak any Japanese, but I won't accept it in any other area. Luckily for me this doesn't happen much anyway.

You accept certain behaviour from one place in regards to the same or similar situation but not from others? Something tells me that in the long run you are either going to get over your pride and let things go or you are going to end up lonely and with ulcers not living here in Japan but back from where ever you came from, bitching and moaning about how poorly the Japanese people treated you.

It comes down to what you are able to accept as an outsider here, b/c no matter how great your Japanese is you will always have a non-Japanese face. I can remember getting all upset when people used to talk English to me too, why? B/c I wanted them to speak Japanese so that I could improve my Japanese. .

And until that happens and Bucko learns to accept his situation here in Japan he probably will never be satisified.

I think what Obeika is saying is that it comes down what reason you have to get offened, they are showing you great respect by at least attempting to speak English to you

Sure, I mean really now, since the overwhelming number of people that live in Japan are Japanese and think of themselves as an ethnocentric society it is really easy to understand their behavior.

Dude is going to get ulcers from sweating over the little stuff like this example here.

Me: 窶堋ｷ窶堙昶?堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙??彭窶决窶堙ｰ窶昶?樞?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩ (excuse me, do you sell batteries here?)
Shop assistant: 窶堙坂?堋｢ﾂ、窶昶?樞?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。窶堋ｱ窶堋ｿ窶堙ｧ窶堙俄?堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。 (yes, they're just here)
Me: 窶堋?窶堋?ﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。窶堋?窶堙個・ﾂ・ﾂ・ﾂ、ﾆ胆ﾆ置ﾆ停?ｹﾂ・ﾆ竪ﾆ辰窶堙娯?堙ｰﾋ?ｪ窶堙や?堋ｨﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ (oh, they are too. Ok, well one pack of double As please)
Shop assistant: (grabs the batteries from behind) ﾆ湛ﾆ椎?ﾂーﾆ地ﾆ停?愴檀ﾆ椎槌鍛ﾆ檀窶ｰ~ (in katakana English, "three hundred en")
Me: (confused) 窶堋ｦ窶堋ｦﾂ、窶堋｢窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？
Shope assistant: (brings out the calculator and types in "300" and shows it to me)

So, what is the big deal in the bigger picture of life? Why let it bother you so much, was your ego or pride hurt so bad by this experience that you shared here? I've seen shop people show calculators to Japanese people to show them the price. They dont ***** about "hey what I just heard what you said".

I could share with you literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of stuff like this, and to be honest when I was a newbie here some of it bothered me too. Some still gets to me today on occassion and depending on the situation.

However I am not going to lose too much sleep about it.

Oh and if you do complain or ***** too loudly you do realize that you are just reinforcing the image of the loud obnoxious "gaijin".

In your case it might be the loud obnoxious Japanese speaking "gaijin", but still gaijin just the same, and there is nothing that you can do to change that.

The sooner you get over it the better for you and all around you as well.

You've pretty much got it spot on there I think.

Why does a complete stranger in a store need to feed your ego?

 

[The7thSamurai]

Obeika, if I could insult your intelligence without having this post deleted I would. Like our friend from Machester (a few posts earlier) you have completely missed the point. However I couldn't be bothered going through your post here and highlighting what you've misinterpreted so I'll just leave it at that. However, I do recommed going to the very beginning of this thread and seeing where I'm coming from with all this.

 

[KirinMan]

Like our friend from Machester (a few posts earlier) you have completely missed the point. However I couldn't be bothered going through your post here and highlighting what you've misinterpreted so I'll just leave it at that.

Really now, I have read this post and my comments stay as they are because that is how you come across to me, whether or not you appreciate that is another story.

I was like what??

But you do come across to me as if your ego and pride were hurt because Japanese people took one look at your "white" face and spoke to you in English.

Obeika, if I could insult your intelligence without having this post deleted I would.

Sarcasm, pride and ego noted as well. Best of luck to you!

 

[The7thSamurai]

I was like what??

But you do come across to me as if your ego and pride were hurt because Japanese people took one look at your "white" face and spoke to you in English.
Sarcasm, pride and ego noted as well. Best of luck to you!

Huh?? There was no ego or pride about it. Think about it. You have a conversation with someone in Japanese, then all of a sudden they treat you like you can't speak Japanese. Why wouldn't anyone react "what"?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Me: すみません、ここで電池を売りますか (excuse me, do you sell batteries here?)
Shop assistant: はい、売りますよ。こちらにあります。 (yes, they're just here)
Me: ああ、そうですね。あの・・・、ダブル・エイのを一つお願いします (oh, they are too. Ok, well one pack of double As please)
Shop assistant: (grabs the batteries from behind) スリーハンドレッド円 (in katakana English, "three hundred en")
Me: (confused) ええ、いくらいでしょうか？
Shope assistant: (brings out the calculator and types in "300" and shows it to me)
I was like what?? Our whole conversation before was in Japanese! Anyway, of course this happened at one of the most touristy places in Kyoto.

Bucko, I will give you an example of what English means to some people here.
I did a lecture regarding the welfare system in concern to a certain nursing institution that has been put into effect here from a few years back. Of corse it was in full Japanese with a lot of "専門用語" "senmonyougo" in regards to the Japanese welfare system. This speach or lecture went for about an hour. Now by this time you think that everyone pretty much knows that I can speak Japanese, but after the lecture when everyone was standing around talking, I had a guy come up to me and start talking in Japanese and English and when ever he could fit it in there(pretty similar to your situation). Now stand back and look at the situation, why did he insist on speaking English to me when he knew full well that we could have had a much smoother conversation and save a lot of time? I don't know, but he wanted to speak that way so I did the same in return. It is great to be able to speak two or more languages b/c you can choose what and yhow you want to speak.
I still feel that the clerk was atempting to help you out. And by the way if you said "Me: ああ、そうですね。あの・・・、ダブル・エイのを一つお願いします " this would idecate to me that you don't have a complete grasp on the Japanese language and on top of that I have not heard you accent or "namari", the reason why I say this is b/c "double A batteries" are translated like this "単三電池" "tansan denchi". So I would look at yourself before pointing fingers, as you may have been the reason why they said that to you.
You have to understand that what you think you are saying may not actualy be understood by the oppisite party.

BTW, I am not trying have a dig at you, but you should look at the situation from both sides.

 

[KirinMan]

Huh?? There was no ego or pride about it. Think about it. You have a conversation with someone in Japanese, then all of a sudden they treat you like you can't speak Japanese. Why wouldn't anyone react "what"?

Happens to me often, particularly around the base areas here in Okinawa , so they want to try to talk in English to you, in fact in a manner of speaking they are showing respect to you by trying to recognize you for who you are and not what you are saying.

If you couldnt speak or understand English and they kept it up I might say what too but that isnt the case now is it?

Oh and Dave makes a great point in his post as well. To be honest with you I passed over that part because I actually thought you made a mistake in what you wrote there, about the battery sizes.

 

[Davey]

Japanese already speak Japanese on a daily base, when they meet someone who doesn't look Japanese they can finally practice all these years of studying English again.

 

[The7thSamurai]

"Me: 窶堋?窶堋?ﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。窶堋?窶堙個・ﾂ・ﾂ・ﾂ、ﾆ胆ﾆ置ﾆ停?ｹﾂ・ﾆ竪ﾆ辰窶堙娯?堙ｰﾋ?ｪ窶堙や?堋ｨﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ " this would idecate to me that you don't have a complete grasp on the Japanese language and on top of that I have not heard you accent or "namari", the reason why I say this is b/c "double A batteries" are translated like this "窶儕ﾅｽO窶彭窶决" "tansan denchi". So I would look at yourself before pointing fingers, as you may have been the reason why they said that to you.

Well I didn't write that conversation out word-for-word. To be honest I can't remember what I said exactly, but I sure didn't need to make any gestures or point to anything for her to understand that I needed AA batteries. The fact that she reached for them right after I requested them proves this point.

I accept that my request probably wasn't the most natural, but everything I said was understood perfectly, so I couldn't understand the need for the English + calculator thing.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Oh and Dave makes a great point in his post as well. To be honest with you I passed over that part because I actually thought you made a mistake in what you wrote there, about the battery sizes.

Ok, my bad. I thought that was the way you said it in Japanese. You'll find ﾆ胆ﾆ置ﾆ停?ｹﾂ・ﾆ竪ﾆ辰 in the dictionary though, and I've heard Japanese people use it.

Quite ironic that the whole point of this thread was for me to highlight the myths of annoying Japanese habits, yet turned into me slagging some of these bad habits!

I apologise for the indirect insult earlier too.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I will admit that I haven't read everything here, but I think I get the gist of what has been going on.

I think that it is perfectly fine to gripe out the people who put English in conversation when it is clearly not necessary, but in terms of survival, it's just something you have to get used to and accept.

Believe me,though, it does take time.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Well I didn't write that conversation out word-for-word. To be honest I can't remember what I said exactly, but I sure didn't need to make any gestures or point to anything for her to understand that I needed AA batteries. The fact that she reached for them right after I requested them proves this point.
I accept that my request probably wasn't the most natural, but everything I said was understood perfectly, so I couldn't understand the need for the English + calculator thing.

Like I said before I am not trying to critisize your langauge ability at all, b/c they seem good to me. But , there is a difference to "being understood" and "understanding", what I mean by that is I am sure the clerk understood what you were saying, but at the same time the clerk could have thought that you did not have a full understanding , hense the English at the end.
Or like the other guys said, it could be the fact that the clerk wanted to speak English.

 

[The7thSamurai]

You know this battery story actually relates to one of the points in my initial arguement:
- Many Japanese will try to answer in bad English after being asked a question in "fluent" Japanese (i.e. poor Japanese)

I wonder how she would have responded had I asked in proper, natural Japanese?

 

[FrustratedDave]

You know this battery story actually relates to one of the points in my initial arguement:
- Many Japanese will try to answer in bad English after being asked a question in "fluent" Japanese (i.e. poor Japanese)

I wonder how she would have responded had I asked in proper, natural Japanese?

But bucko ,you re-adjusted your thinking on this one "Many Japanese will try to answer in bad English after being asked a question in "fluent" Japanese". which would indicate to me that it never happens to you, but you were under the impresion that it did from reading sites like these.

I don't remember the last time someone answered me in English after I asked them a question in Japanese and I would say that would be a few years now. You also have to remember that your demeaour will change as you get used to life here.

 

[KirinMan]

I apologise for the indirect insult earlier too.

Dont worry about it, I think I would have gotten a bit peeved as well.

I think that it is perfectly fine to gripe out the people who put English in conversation when it is clearly not necessary, but in terms of survival, it's just something you have to get used to and accept.

Timing I think is also important, does it or would it make a difference?
If it it somewhere where I frequently go, like a grocery store or my local video place etc etc and they acted like Bucko wrote earlier I think I might get annoyed.

However if it is somewhere where I go for the first time or dont really frequent and they responded as such I would probably let it go.

You know this battery story actually relates to one of the points in my initial arguement:
- Many Japanese will try to answer in bad English after being asked a question in "fluent" Japanese (i.e. poor Japanese)

I wonder how she would have responded had I asked in proper, natural Japanese?

I'm sorry but I am probably being dense here but what is "fluent" bad Japanese vs. "proper" natural Japanese?

 

[DoctorP]

I think many peoples problems with Japanese addressing them in English stems from the fact that many people feel that their Japanese level of proficiency is much higher than it actually is... ever think that they respond to you in English because sometimes your Japanese is incomprehensable?

 

[The7thSamurai]

I'm sorry but I am probably being dense here but what is "fluent" bad Japanese vs. "proper" natural Japanese?

When I said "fluent" Japanese (with the quotation marks) I meant foreigners who think they're fluent but are far from it. E.g. me in the battery story (well, of course I didn't think I was fluent, I just thought I used normal enough Japanese to not warrent English)

Proper natural Japanese meant, well, proper, natural Japanese as a Japanese person would speak.

Anyway, the crux of this thread was to say that these types of annoying situations rarely happen anyway, to me at least. Since moving to Sapporo two months ago I think I've only been spoken to in English like three times, and all of those times were at touristy places. And to be honest, I find it refreshing to walk into a place and have the waiters, clerks etc act as if there was no alternative to dealing in entirely Japanese.

 

[pipokun]

Questions like "why are you here?" or "when do you leave here?" (in other thread here) may sound rude to you. But it is just a foreign language related trouble.
If someone is really rude, "... silence" or kids would ransack a tomb like the ones in Bucko's country.
About the silence, I keep silent if the topic is anime or manga because I don't have much to talk about.

 

[The7thSamurai]

If someone is really rude, "... silence" or kids would ransack a tomb like the ones in Bucko's country.

Some news story I missed?

 

[Pachipro]

Quote:

Rare is the case that I am ignored when amongst the Japanese. Unknown neighbors still greet me with a slight bow and an ohayo gozaimasu or konnichiwa while I am walking and I return same in kind; I always receive the tissues at the station and, when I walk into a place of business on my own, I am greeted as any Japanese would be including an out of the way ramen shop in the middle of the night

If you think these are examples of not being ignored, live your fantasy. All you have shown are examples of public displays of courtesy and shopkeepers who shout out "irashaimase!" without even looking at the door. Do you know the difference between honne and tatemae?

Maybe they were simplified examples, but I am not living a fantasy in that I have hardly experienced much of what others say they have and my experience dwarfs yours. Many people have said they are ignored by their neighbors or even shopkeepers. Research some of Maciamo's posts among others before you go knocking someone else. What other examples do you want? I could give many. If I'm living a fantasy what are your experiences with being ignored? I'd like to hear them. You are a gaijin and always will be in the eyes of most Japanese. That will never change no matter how fluent you are or long you have lived there. They will always compliment you on your use of chopsticks or your language ability no matter how dismal or fluent it is. They will always be amazed that you can eat sushi or enjoy sleeping on a futon, etc. You may be ignored from time to time or be even refused to rent an apartment. The true test is how you handle it or how you let it affect you.

Maybe most people are too sensitive and seem to not really understand the Japanese language and culture even though they have lived there more than a few years and can speak it quite well. I don't know why certain things bother some people so much and others not at all.

And for your question concerning honne and tatamae I will not even answer that as that shows you nothing about me for, if you did, you wouldn't even ask that question or take a stab at me about living a fantasy.

 

[FrustratedDave]

You are a gaijin and always will be in the eyes of most Japanese. That will never change no matter how fluent you are or long you have lived there. They will always compliment you on your use of chopsticks or your language ability no matter how dismal or fluent it is. They will always be amazed that you can eat sushi or enjoy sleeping on a futon, etc. You may be ignored from time to time or be even refused to rent an apartment. The true test is how you handle it or how you let it affect you.

I don't get commented on my language ability anymore.

 

[Pachipro]

I don't get commented on my language ability anymore.

Most people will experience it from time to time especially with people they meet for the first time.