Native japanese counter words

Tsurugi · 19 Sep 2008

I would like to know how could I say "35 men" using native Japanese counter words?

I know that it is going like hitori, futari, mittari, yottari, itsutari, mutari, nanatari, yatari, kokonotari and tootari(10), hatatari(20), misotari(30) when number finishes with zero. I was learning that in old Japanese number what does not finish with zero should be said "misotari amari itsutari"(35 men) or "tootsuki amari futatsuki"(12 months), but I don't know if I could use it in modern Japanese.

nice gaijin · 20 Sep 2008

anything about 2 people is just the number + "nin"

35 would be 三十五人, sanjuugonin. I have no idea where you got the counting convention you're using.

Tsurugi · 20 Sep 2008

nice gaijin said:
anything about 2 people is just the number + "nin"

35 would be 三十五人, sanjuugonin. I have no idea where you got the counting convention you're using.

I found it here.

The Number System of Ancient Japanese

I know I can use sanjuugonin, but I was thinking about how could it be made using native Japanese numerals and counter words. I mean, hito-futa-mi system of counting.
In old Japanese it should be "misotari amari itsutari" but I don't know if it could be used in modern Japanese.

Toritoribe · 20 Sep 2008

Are you supposed to say all the on-yomi words are Chinese origin and not NATIVE Japanese???
You might be better to learn 古代/上代日本語(kodai/joudai Nihongo); the prehistoric/ancient(not archaic) Japanese which had quite different pronunciation/vocabulary system from modern Japanese, just like "hitori" must be pronounced as "pitori."

nice gaijin · 20 Sep 2008

This is kind of like writing your phone number in roman numerals. Pointless.

grapefruit · 20 Sep 2008

This is interesting. Occasionally, you encounter in modern Japanese remnants of the ancient counting methods, but under normal circumstances, ３５人is sanjuugonin.

Expressions like 八百屋"yaoya", 百太郎"momotaro"、千歳飴"chitoseame", and 大晦日（oomisoka) contain such old counting schemes.

Tsurugi · 20 Sep 2008

Toritoribe said:
Are you supposed to say all the on-yomi words are Chinese origin and not NATIVE Japanese???
You might be better to learn 古代/上代日本語(kodai/joudai Nihongo); the prehistoric/ancient(not archaic) Japanese which had quite different pronunciation/vocabulary system from modern Japanese, just like "hitori" must be pronounced as "pitori."

No, I know there is a lot of ON-yomi words of Japanese and not Chinese origin(wasei words), but I was asking could I use that counter number of KUN reading? When I say "native Japanese word" I usually talk about KUN readings of it.

Toritoribe · 21 Sep 2008

You'd already got the answer. I still wonder why you're trying to use such an old counter that no one might be able to understand instead of the common one, though.
If you REALLY want to use only 大和言葉/和語(yamato kotoba/wago), you need to know not only the vocabulary but the ancient/archaic grammar of Japanese.
e.g.
私のクラスには35人(みそあまりいつたり)の男子がいました。
Watashi no KURASU niwa miso amari itsutari no danshi ga imashita.

The sentence above does mot make sence. Quite odd.

我が組男三十五人居れり/我が組三十五人の男居れり
Wa ga kumi onoko miso amari itsutari woreri/Wa ga kumi miso amari itsutari no onoko woreri

These ones would be acceptable. What the speaker/writer wants to say couldn't be conveyed to most of all people, though.

I would emphasize again, whether Chinese origin or Japanese origin, on-yomi words are NO DOUBT a part of Japanese language, PURE JAPANESE.
Even 紫式部(Murasaki Shikibu) couldn't write The Tale of Genji without them.

Tsurugi · 21 Sep 2008

Actually, I am interested in all periods of Japanese language from Yamato period till modern period. Of course I only use modern forms when speaking to my friends, but I am studying all about develope of old Japanese language. Then I make the comparison between early and later forms.
I am just checking what forms of old Japanese can still be used in modern Japanese.
In fact, sometimes I like to use some ancient words like "momo"(100) and "inui"(northwest), but it is obvious that I know where can I use it and in what moment.

Toritoribe · 21 Sep 2008

I see, then, you can only use "hitori" and "futari" in standard modern Japanese. "Mitari" and "yottari", at the most, might be used by old men in some regions very occasionally.
12ヶ月(12 months) in old counter system should be "too amari futatsuki" not "totsuki(also not tootsuki) amari futatsuki." The latter would mean "10 months and 2 months."
Ah, as you might know, "yamato kotoba/wago" is the term for native Japanese words. It's the antonym of 漢語(kara kotoba/kango); Sino-Japanese, not the language used in an era.

Japanese language - Wikipedia

These terms(yamato kotoba/wago, kara kotoba/kango) may fit your context rather than the term like "on/kun" or "origin."
The reason;
The word describable only by kana is never called "kun-yomi."
The Japanese origin word like 会社(kaisha) is also classified as "kango"; 和製漢語(wasei kango).

While you're so interested in Japanese language, why don't you use kana/kanji? (sorry, just curious)

Tsurugi · 22 Sep 2008

It is because there is not support for Japanese letters in my PC. I don't have that program, that is because I only can write in Roman letters. I can see kana letters in PC, but I can not type in it, and I also can see some Kanji's, but only about 100.

bammbamm&pebbles · 22 Sep 2008

nice gaijin said:
35 would be 三十五人, sanjuugonin.

I thought Chinese numerical characters are no longer in use in modern Japanese language :?

undrentide · 22 Sep 2008

bammbamm&pebbles said:
I thought Chinese numerical characters are no longer in use in modern Japanese language :?

They have been and are still in use.
Arabic numeral is more commonly used but kansuuji (numeral in kanji) are still in use, especially when the text is written vertically.

Native japanese counter words

Tsurugi

後輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Tsurugi

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

grapefruit

先輩

Tsurugi

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Tsurugi

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Tsurugi

後輩

bammbamm&pebbles

Sempai

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

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