My practice sentences...
- Thread starter zxuiji
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- 5 May 2013
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No, that's not right at all.
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
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- #253
Well the ある の I got from jisho so fair enough on that, and the 食べ だった I noticed later was supposed to be 食べ た from the link とれとれべ provided so also fair enough on that, so putting those aside was the が particle usage correct here (if I had the correct version of "have")?
- 22 Feb 2008
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What do you mean by "I have eaten" in the first place? "I have experienced eating", "I have just eaten", "I have already eaten" or "I have eaten for a time period"? Although the present perfect can express these meanings in English, you need to use different expressions for each one in Japanese.
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
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- #255
I meant the second one "I have already eaten", judging by that instead of looking for "have" I should've looked for "have already" or just plain "already" I take it? Well so long as I'm now getting the structure and particle usage right I can learn the rest gradually from memrise, the main reason I showed up at these forums was because I was having trouble understanding how to use the grammar correctly, if I am using the grammar correctly now then I can switch to consulting on meanings and sentences I'm unsure of, conjugations I'm still in the middle of learning so for now I won't panic about getting them wrong, instead I'll just learn from what I'm told of them and what the genki books teach me once I get ahold of them. Including today there're five days left before I can order the first book.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Then try to make Japanese sentences after you got the textbook and learned from it. Your method doesn't work well, as we repeatedly pointed out. Period.
- 12 Oct 2004
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Your absolute biggest problem is that you seem to believe (whether you are aware of it or not) that there is a one-to-one correspondence between Japanese and English in terms of grammar and vocabulary.
That you can simply learn what the equivalent of "already" or "have" is in Japanese, and instantaneously be able to comprehend and produce all similar sentences in both languages.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Japanese and English are SO FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY that you will literally need to FORGET everything you THINK you know about language and re-wire your brain to process things in an entirely different manner to even BEGIN to have any hope of EVER gaining reasonable competence or proficiency in Japanese.
You may think you're getting closer, but you're not. Your most recent attempt at an incredibly simple sentence makes about as much sense in Japanese as "I am are eaten was is" does in English. It is not a matter of "oh, I understood everything but...(this particle or other minor detail.)" EVERYTHING you are trying to produce is BROKEN BEYOND ANY SEMBLANCE OF MEANING and shows ZERO understanding of even the most fundamental aspect of Japanese sentence structure.
This is not meant to be rude, but simply to state a fact. For your OWN sake, not ours, please get a decent textbook, or even better, take a class, and start from square one without this ridiculous confidence that you know better than anyone how to best learn a language that you haven't even begun to comprehend.
Japanese is complicated, especially for an English speaker, but it isn't even one one-billionth as complicated as you are MAKING it by approaching it in the manner you are.
(My apologies for the rant, but seeing the back-and-forth here is absolutely agonizing. Not that I expect my own contribution to do much.)
That you can simply learn what the equivalent of "already" or "have" is in Japanese, and instantaneously be able to comprehend and produce all similar sentences in both languages.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Japanese and English are SO FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY that you will literally need to FORGET everything you THINK you know about language and re-wire your brain to process things in an entirely different manner to even BEGIN to have any hope of EVER gaining reasonable competence or proficiency in Japanese.
You may think you're getting closer, but you're not. Your most recent attempt at an incredibly simple sentence makes about as much sense in Japanese as "I am are eaten was is" does in English. It is not a matter of "oh, I understood everything but...(this particle or other minor detail.)" EVERYTHING you are trying to produce is BROKEN BEYOND ANY SEMBLANCE OF MEANING and shows ZERO understanding of even the most fundamental aspect of Japanese sentence structure.
This is not meant to be rude, but simply to state a fact. For your OWN sake, not ours, please get a decent textbook, or even better, take a class, and start from square one without this ridiculous confidence that you know better than anyone how to best learn a language that you haven't even begun to comprehend.
Japanese is complicated, especially for an English speaker, but it isn't even one one-billionth as complicated as you are MAKING it by approaching it in the manner you are.
(My apologies for the rant, but seeing the back-and-forth here is absolutely agonizing. Not that I expect my own contribution to do much.)
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OoTmaster
先輩
- 23 Oct 2012
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I agree with everything jt_ just said in his post. Japanese is so fundamentally different from English it's not even funny. If you try to treat Japanese like English you're going to be far beyond frustrated with all of your Japanese studying. You will sit there and decide what Japanese does wrong and won't get down to understanding Japanese as Japanese. To understand the language you need to think of it in a Japanese way. That's just how fundamentally different it is from English. テーブルの上に本があります。For example that's a sentence for "There is a book on top of the table" literally translated you get "Table's top on book exists" which in English makes no sense but in Japanese makes perfect sense.
- 15 Mar 2002
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Is there not some easier and cheaper textbook we could suggest for him?
The price of Genki represents a major expense for him. If he has been unable to understand the explanations in any of the things he has read online, he isn't going to understand the explanations in Genki any better. I think we have to back away from recommending a college textbook to someone with diagnosed learning difficulties and an inadequate level of language skills in his first language.
He's not going to benefit from Genki and it would be irresponsible of us to encourage him to buy it. What's something more suitable?
The price of Genki represents a major expense for him. If he has been unable to understand the explanations in any of the things he has read online, he isn't going to understand the explanations in Genki any better. I think we have to back away from recommending a college textbook to someone with diagnosed learning difficulties and an inadequate level of language skills in his first language.
He's not going to benefit from Genki and it would be irresponsible of us to encourage him to buy it. What's something more suitable?
- 5 May 2013
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Not that I can think of. I worked through two Japanese textbooks (Japanese for Everyone & Modern Japanese) as well as Tae Kim for the different perspectives (and also because I bought Modern Japanese for self-study and then ended up enrolling in a class that used Japanese for Everyone.)
I didn't work through Genki, but from the excerpts of seen it seems quite clear in its explanations with good examples and translations, not to mention coming with supplemental audio.
There are books that are 'easier' to work through, but that's because they don't teach you anything except survival phrases, in roman characters. And the ones that have accompanying audio are more expensive than Genki while teaching less. I won't say such courses don't have a purpose; if you're a businessman or a tourist with six weeks to learn enough Japanese to get by for your 2-week visit, well, there is a place for that kind of course. You'll never learn to hold a real conversation or read a book from that kind of course though. It's enough to ask some very basic questions, and understand the answers if and only if the person you're asking answers in very, very simple language with no regional dialect.
- 12 Oct 2004
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Not to pile on, but I'm afraid I'm not sure even Genki (or a textbook of similar quality) would help if he's just going to end up using it in a scattershot way.
Tae Kim's guide is far from spectacular, but if read carefully, certainly it could provide a basic understanding of the basic, fundamental elements of Japanese grammar that the OP still seems to be stuggling with.
I'm not sure where in the UK he lives, or if this is even feasible, but it seems like his best hope would be to find a volunteer Japanese class of sorts, at a community/cultural center or what have you.
It strikes me that if he can find a patient and qualified teacher who can help him get over this initial mental block and understand, on even the simplest level, how Japanese does and doesn't work, perhaps things might "click" somewhat, allowing him to work from there and build upon that foundation.
Back in my grad student/TA days, I would have loved the challenge of trying to work with the OP one-on-one. I'm fairly certain he could benefit from repeated reinforcement/exposure, so that mistaken assumptions don't linger in his head (and even worse, compound each other).
Tae Kim's guide is far from spectacular, but if read carefully, certainly it could provide a basic understanding of the basic, fundamental elements of Japanese grammar that the OP still seems to be stuggling with.
I'm not sure where in the UK he lives, or if this is even feasible, but it seems like his best hope would be to find a volunteer Japanese class of sorts, at a community/cultural center or what have you.
It strikes me that if he can find a patient and qualified teacher who can help him get over this initial mental block and understand, on even the simplest level, how Japanese does and doesn't work, perhaps things might "click" somewhat, allowing him to work from there and build upon that foundation.
Back in my grad student/TA days, I would have loved the challenge of trying to work with the OP one-on-one. I'm fairly certain he could benefit from repeated reinforcement/exposure, so that mistaken assumptions don't linger in his head (and even worse, compound each other).
- 15 Mar 2002
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I suspect he may overcompensate by trying to do too much on his own without asking questions. If he would go through the guide slowly and ask questions about each part, we could probably help him. Sadly, I don't think he will do that.
People who don't have learning difficulties often need help with getting started on Japanese and have to ask lots of questions about it. I'm afraid pride may cause him to insist on doing things his own ineffective way rather than ask questions and accept advice. He's tired of being the slow kid in class and he's trying to prove something.
People who don't have learning difficulties often need help with getting started on Japanese and have to ask lots of questions about it. I'm afraid pride may cause him to insist on doing things his own ineffective way rather than ask questions and accept advice. He's tired of being the slow kid in class and he's trying to prove something.
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
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- Thread starter
- #263
I appreciate the responses people, as for the expense of genki, it is managable for me, it just got delayed because of an unplanned loan to my mum and the purchase of a sofa suit from my local furniture recycling charity store. As far as my problem with vocab goes, it's a reflexive thought process and I'm not expecting it to be fixed any time soon, but for future reference it will most likely help if instead of meantioning the true word/meaning I should've looked for (and not giving me the chance to think it through and possibly break my reflexive thought process) you simply reply "english meaning", seeing that enough times should cause me to remember it whenever I try to form a japanese equivalent of the sentence and subsequently start breaking the reflex or at least begin ignoring the reflex. As for the grammar issue I got no idea how to fix that apart from continuing to research it and gradually getting those genki books, I got no more pressing expenses to take care of so I will be focusing on those over the course of the year. As far as that idea of volunteer classes go, I never thought of that but I will give it a try after I finishing acquiring the genki books (I'll bookmark this post so I don't forget).
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
- 263
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- Thread starter
- #264
Amazon.com: GENKI I: An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese (9784789014403): Eri Banno, Yoko Ikeda, Yutaka Ohno: Books
Well I've just purchased the genki book plus the 2 things that are normally bought along side it (had a cash bonus which came in from auto-sold shares given by Tesco I think) so I will be expecting that between 9-14 days time. Until it arrives I will just continue with memrise on daily basis (mostly while working) and chill with some FFXV. If anyone sees some other genki books on amazon that I should've started with please share the link, better yet provide links to all in the order they should be done if you're in the mood (I'll pop em in my blogged reference sheet/script as well)
Well I've just purchased the genki book plus the 2 things that are normally bought along side it (had a cash bonus which came in from auto-sold shares given by Tesco I think) so I will be expecting that between 9-14 days time. Until it arrives I will just continue with memrise on daily basis (mostly while working) and chill with some FFXV. If anyone sees some other genki books on amazon that I should've started with please share the link, better yet provide links to all in the order they should be done if you're in the mood (I'll pop em in my blogged reference sheet/script as well)
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
- 263
- 5
- Thread starter
- #265
Still waiting on the the genki books but for now I just want to ask about an attempt at a sentence made while pissballing about with my colleage at work, the sentence I was trying to create the equivalent of is "Navan go to the library and get your homework" (was using words I recently learned on memrise), my attempt looks like this: ナヴンは図書館へ行くと君の宿題に受ける
The "you" and "get" I haven't learnt yet so I had to look them up in a seperate app, tried looking for "retrieve" at first but that brought up a wierd result which I felt was incorrect after trying "get" instead, "you" brought up multiple results and I simply had to guess there, I'm also not confident に was the correct particle instead of を.
The "you" and "get" I haven't learnt yet so I had to look them up in a seperate app, tried looking for "retrieve" at first but that brought up a wierd result which I felt was incorrect after trying "get" instead, "you" brought up multiple results and I simply had to guess there, I'm also not confident に was the correct particle instead of を.
- 15 Mar 2002
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With all the many other errors, this one correction is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
The verbs are the wrong tenses. A と following a verb is not the same as a と following a noun. And what is meant by "get your homework"? Is that a British version of "do your homework"? Or is the speaker telling someone to go to the library to retrieve their forgotten homework? In any case, 受ける is the wrong verb anyway.
I know there is no point in trying to tell the OP for the umpteenth time that IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT but I can't stop myself from saying it anyway.
OoTmaster
先輩
- 23 Oct 2012
- 738
- 122
A very good comparison as I have just about as much experience with a sinking Titanic as I do with correcting sentences like the one given. So all I can do is tidy up the chairs while I wait my turn to get off the sinking ship.
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
- 263
- 5
- Thread starter
- #269
I did say I tried looking for "retrieve" first, get/retrieve are mostly always gonna mean the same thing (in fact I can't think of any other meaning), I also mentioned I'm still waiting for the genki books to arrive and that I made this attempt while screwing arround at work so please drop the attitude. I had thought I was starting to understand those particles now but I guess I will need to at least complete the unit I've just reached on memrise that involves practicing with the particles on premade sentences (particle spots have an underscore instead). It's disappointing that I'm still getting the grammar wrong but for now I'll shrug it off as something that can't be helped until I receive those books.
zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
- 263
- 5
- Thread starter
- #273
That one I was just going on memory from earlier memrise units, didn't think anything of it since the pen is a more recent invention and I figured that it didn't have a japanese equivalant, gonna finish watching an episode of Big Bang Theory and read a chapter from my bible before I go look it up on jisho
- 27 Apr 2014
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The ballpoint pen was patented in 1888. That's not exactly recent, is it? In fact, the Japanese have since then developed a mechanical pencil with a lead that rotates each time you place it on the paper (for even wear distribution). How fancy is that?
Rest assured, there's a Japanese word for every modern object you can think of - and then some.
Rest assured, there's a Japanese word for every modern object you can think of - and then some.
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zxuiji
Sempai
- 27 Feb 2017
- 263
- 5
- Thread starter
- #275
Depends on your definition of recent, didn't actually look into it but as far as I was aware japan was in isolation until 1-2 hundreds years ago, and thanks for the info about the modern objects, I'm gonna go look now
Edit: This the one I'm looking for? 錡
Edit: This the one I'm looking for? 錡
