My practice sentences...

[zxuiji]

No yours is in natural english, mine is in barely coherant english because as a literal translation the original grammar rules such as word order are honoured as much as possible, natural however takes that literal translation and makes it sound like normal english by converting word order and other grammar rules to those of english. If I were to try converting the "study of which starting very childish of excuse exhibition" I produced it would come out like "his (infered) study is starting to sound like very childish excuse exhibition"

 

[Toritoribe]

Wow, you are saying literal translations are always not natural English!
You even don't realize that it's negative "not start", or more accurately, "not want to start".

自らの日本語読解能力も顧みずに自説を押し通すとは。恥知らずというか盗人猛々しいというか。こうなると予想できたとは言え、好意はまたもや逆切れで返されて終わるか。やれやれ。

I'll never read this thread. Good bye.

 

[zxuiji]

...as for "very" I got that from looking up tai on jisho then forgetting it was conjugated...

...You even don't realize that it's negative "not start"...

Does that look like I didn't realise? Also I said after quoting my translation

...exhibition" I produced

 

[Mike Cash]

mine is in barely coherant english

How does that make it any different than anything else you write?

 

[zxuiji]

The difference mike is that the previous ones were not even close as you and others have already pointed out and thus do not qualify as a poor literal translation or correct literal translation but rather a incorrect literal translation. Right now I'm at the stage of producing poor literal translations of sentences using a small subset of the japanese language, before I move onto larger sets I want to reach the stage of correct literal translations and thereafter correct natural translations based on correct literal translations. The point is that I am not bothering to try natural translations until I can peform the literal translation correctly.

FYI this will be my last post for a while (possibly until tommorrow) since I will be finishing of the genki memrise module and subsequently resuming my reading of genki itself.

 

[Mike Cash]

I was saying ALL your English is barely coherent English.

 

[OoTmaster]

For my reference what was the correct literal translation then?

I didn't know the correct full translation but what I understood from the text was "Childish excuse(s) of those that don't want to start learning." I was sure what 見本市 meant but understood enough of the meaning from what I did understand.

 

[zxuiji]

First mike if all my english is bad then so is yours since they're no diffierent, and toomaster I appreciate you pointing out I was wrong anyway, as the saying goes "nothing is learnt from success only from failure" (at least I think that was the phrase).

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

"nothing is learnt from success only from failure" (at least I think that was the phrase).

That is a saying, along with the more common 'mistakes are the best teacher' and similar sentiments. It's also hogwash. The best (ie. fastest, most lasting, and most thorough) way to learn is through correct replication and repetition. The number of incorrect ways of doing a task is potentially infinite, while the number of correct ways is generally a very small finite number, so if you learn *only* from mistakes it will take you literally forever to learn even the simplest task.

 

[zxuiji]

Well obviously some things can be learned from replication but mistakes are a better teacher since as long as something has not been researched (which is the most appropriate name for the learning process) the mind will still consider it possible because it has no memory of it being denied, it's like identifying what can and cannot fit into a box, even if we judge something is unlikely to fit in, as long as it is not obviously impossible (such as a regular keyboard fitting into a ring holder) it is better to try it to either confirm or deny our suspicions. It is more dangerous to leave a suspicion unchecked than it is to copy another.

 

[mdchachi]

Yes. Learn from your mistakes. Good idea.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Well obviously some things can be learned from replication but mistakes are a better teacher since as long as something has not been researched (which is the most appropriate name for the learning process) the mind will still consider it possible because it has no memory of it being denied, it's like identifying what can and cannot fit into a box, even if we judge something is unlikely to fit in, as long as it is not obviously impossible (such as a regular keyboard fitting into a ring holder) it is better to try it to either confirm or deny our suspicions. It is more dangerous to leave a suspicion unchecked than it is to copy another.

No, mistakes are not a better teacher. Mistakes are an inevitable and essential part of learning, but making more mistakes on purpose by ignoring or defying available correct instruction to see if doing the wrong the works anyway is ridiculous.

The mindset you're describing is more suited to invention and scientific research and is useful there to never assume anything or take anything for granted and test weird apparent dead-ends, but in that case there is no well developed correct model so again... mistakes are an *inevitable* part of learning. That is in any case a very different thing from learning how to operate in a well-developed system (e.g., how to break down and rebuild and engine, how to perform a ballet, or how to speak a language.)

With language in particular, experimenting to see what might work also will gain you a ton of false positives - you can write or say many things that still manage to communicate in the situation at hand, but those things may be ambiguous and ineffective in other situations, or awkward and unnatural and require a very discerning recipient to understand you, or it may even be that you only think you communicated when what was understood was actually entirely different from what you meant to say. You can spend literally forever making and learning from mistakes in language learning and never successfully learn a language.

If, on the other hand, you learn from replication of correct examples, you will eventually learn the language. (Of course this does require enough quantity and consistency of learning to not forget faster than you learn. Studying one sentence a day or something will plateau far below functional use of the language).

 

[zxuiji]

...ton of false positives - you can write or say many things that still manage to communicate in the situation at hand, but those things may be ambiguous and ineffective in other situations, or awkward and unnatural and require a very discerning recipient to understand you, or it may even be that you only think you communicated when what was understood was actually entirely different from what you meant to say...

Why do you think I try them here? I cannot always identify false positives by myself, especially when it comes to language. This is why I try them in a forum for learning where more experienced people can tell me if and where I've gone wrong, if they happen to explain what I should have done, great, if not then I least have been told what I need to research more about. Now back to the topic of my progress with genki, on the first 2 days of which I had planned to continue genki I certainly did read some of it, unfortunatly I have low interest in educational reading which causes me to be lazy about reading it (enough that I haven't read it since), on the other hand my progress with the genki memrise course is steadily progressing (albiet slowly) since I normally use it right before work and during my breaks. I'm hoping part of my lazinesses with genki is down to how much energy I spend learning new words or reinforcing ones I have learnt on memrise, when I complete the genki memrise course and switch to reviewing just once a week I'm hoping my interest in the book will rise enough that I at least read a few pages a week, until then unless I have a question I'm gonna go silent here for the time being.

 

[Mike Cash]

Do you take medications? Sometimes your English is quite clear and grammatical and sometimes it is all messed up. Sometimes it is hard to believe the same person is doing the writing.

 

[zxuiji]

Helloo, back again only to ask if picked out the right one here when looking for an aproprate name for a parameter. 含み is what I guessed on going by the description given then I infured the む form from the み, here is how I'm using it:

"含む": {
"含み": "(to)mean",
"音読み": "フクム"
}

 

[zxuiji]

Do you take medications? Sometimes your English is quite clear and grammatical and sometimes it is all messed up. Sometimes it is hard to believe the same person is doing the writing.

It's probably just clearer when I'm not being as lazy as I normally am (or when I'm not answering via my phone). In case you're wandering, yes I am still reading genki (albiet incredibly slowly). The post above is just in regards to making a list of the words I should be able to read now (the requested one being the only unconfirmed one), I'll make a script for it later which will require me to fill out the kanji & kana based on meaning for practicing translating my thoughts to japanese (since if I'm to quickly produce sentences on regular basis I need to be able to quickly recall the correct word). Also for anyone planning to point it out I noticed a little while ago that 音読み is not the correct group and have corrected it in my list.

 

[zxuiji]

Just thought I'd pop my head in for a moment and mention my current favorite for studying kanji with:
Japanese Kanji Study - 漢字学習 – Android Apps on Google Play
I started using this quite frequently after I started going into work early to boost my motivation to study. For my acquaintances who may be wandering if I'm still reading genki or whether I finished that memrise course, genki I'm currently not reading at any pace faster than that of a snail and memrise I put on hold because when studying old flashcards I found I had forgotten how to read a lot yet the only ones I could always remember how to read were the ones I could write the kanji for so I started studying those, since 2-3 weeks I ago I noticed a boost in my motivation to study at work so I started going in 2-3 hours earlier than normal and ended up going through all 224 radicals, elementry 3 and half of elementry 4 and can maintain a consistent 90-95% score on them, elementry 1 and & 2 I had done before I started going into work much earlier than normal, when I'm done I expect to be using the first 3 days I go in early to revise the kanji and on the memrise genki course/s and on 4 & 5th day I expect to be reading the genki book and doing it's exercises via a notebook, if all goes well I expect to be back here by July earliest, September latest, querying stuff from the second genki book

 

[zxuiji]

My first attempt at a full revision of the elementary set ended with this in case anyone wanted to know (just the stokes are being learnt for time being), will go through the results later picking out all the ones that need some more frequent revision tomorrow.

 

[zxuiji]

Well I'm back to report my progress, I got as far as the first 1800 roughly but the combination of longer review sessions, increased work hours and overtime to cover for a colleague who took time off to care for an ill (or hurt, not sure which) family member caused me to slack off in regards learning new kanji. On the other side of things I found a way to make it easier for me to remember those kanji using radical sets that possess no meaning, for example 陥 I remember as fall into the hill of cactuars, I'll eventually start translating them to the Japanese variants as a way of practicing my basic grammar while reinforcing the meanings in my head (and perhaps the readings too ), when I start that I will start a new thread specifically for checking my translations are correct.