My practice sentences...

[Mike Cash]

For now just the decks, I'll move onto the guide after the deck is done since the deck is including grammar anyways - I need to よみ the guide because some of the grammar already mentioned by the deck is still not clear to me in it's usage, for example I wasn't sure whether to use that が particle when I asked about 学大 to form this: 学が大

You must like doing things ***-backwards....

The point of the deck is to help you practice the points the guide introduces. You're trying to use the guide to help you understand the deck.

Again, you can't just string Japanese things together (学が大) and think that it makes a Japanese sentence. It doesn't. I'm afraid you're really not getting anything from TK, sadly.

 

[zxuiji]

1)
The single kanji 学 usually can't be used to represent a noun "study".
studyの意味 - goo辞書 英和和英

2)
"Bulky" is an adjective. 大 can work like an adjective in some compound words, but it's not a noun anyway. Thus, it's not the problem of particle. が is a subject marker (or object marker for specific verbs/adjectives). The predicative(verb, adjective or copula) is always needed to use it at least in modern Japanese. You need to learn the function of particles before using it.

Thanks but I never really understood the difference between nouns and adjectives etc, I think I'll just go find a guide for that first then come back to trying to use the にほんご grammar, I'll start with that link mike originally provided in an attempt to stop me treating particles as grammar (I still find it a little amusing that his own link contridicted him via sub links, if there's not been one where he or others saw me in a similar situation I'm sure there will some in the future so mike please don't take offense to that if you were going to)

You must like doing things ***-backwards....

The point of the deck is to help you practice the points the guide introduces. You're trying to use the guide to help you understand the deck.

Again, you can't just string Japanese things together (学が大) and think that it makes a Japanese sentence. It doesn't. I'm afraid you're really not getting anything from TK, sadly.

I did say I wasn't sure which is why I didn't try and as you may have noticed by my previous post it seems I will need to take a closer look at grammar concepts first since I doubt I learnt those when I was learning to talk as a child and when I was in 高校 I don't remember those concepts being explained in english classes either so that is most likely the probable cause of why I'm failing to understand the grammar usage.

And even if I'm am doing things backwards what does it matter? I plan on reinforcing that grammar study using online novels and manga (planning on starting with a kids manga I saw the anime of, seemed rather funy to me so I should be able to retain interest while I practice reading said grammar) and it will be easier for me to identify what is grammar when I can see what are words and in turn figure out the correct meaning from there

For reference the anime I'm on about is this one Watch Nandaka Velonica Online | English Dubbed-Subbed Episodes I tried to find a version without the english subs but couldn't so I'm hoping someone can link to one (paid or otherwise). For now though I'll deal with today's tasks then start reading about those grammar concepts before lsiting out the words I'm supposed to know on a notepad (so I can throw away the page after checking how many I got right) then going onto memrise for daily review and maybe looking up those particles I don't fully understand in Tae Kims Guide before going onto play my PS4

 

[Mike Cash]

Particles have grammatical functions. That doesn't mean particles are "grammars". I regret that none of us are smart enough to explain that in a way you can understand.

 

[zxuiji]

Was reading Article (grammar) - Wikipedia and noticed a sentence that I could try transforming にほんごに (I think that's the equivalent of "into japanese") which was "Give me the book" so here goes: ほんは私がさずけるです

 

[Mike Cash]

Was reading Article (grammar) - Wikipedia and noticed a sentence that I could try transforming にほんごに (I think that's the equivalent of "into japanese") which was "Give me the book" so here goes: ほんは私がさずけるです

What was your thought process for arriving at that translation?

 

[zxuiji]

Well "book" looked like it was the topic to me so I started with that, then "me" at the time seemed to be the subject but looking at it again I think I should've treated "give" as the subject and possibly put it before book making it さずけるがほんは私です

 

[Toritoribe]

Verbs can't be the subject.
Adjective - Wikipedia
Noun - Wikipedia
Verb - Wikipedia
Subject (grammar) - Wikipedia

Was reading Article (grammar) - Wikipedia

Why did you read the wiki page about article instead of particle, even though Japanese language doesn't have any article? I already gave you the link of the wikipage about the particle previously, by the way.

My practice sentences... | Page 2 | Japan Forum

 

[zxuiji]

I started with noun and to better understand the page content I opened up the links in a seperate tab to read and then come back to the noun page after understanding the terms it's using.

Just finished reading enough of the noun and adjective page and to be sure my understanding for translating is correct I should be taking the "verb determiner [adjective ...] noun" format I think えいご takes and convert it to the "[adjective ...] noun particle verb" that I think にほんご takes or have I misinterpreted something there.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
"Give me the book" is an imperative sentence. You need to use an imperative form of the verb for that case.

2)
The order "noun particle verb" is correct, but speaking strictly, it should be "noun1, particle1, noun2, particle2, verb" since there are two nouns (direct object and indirect object) in "Give me the book".

 

[zxuiji]

as far as that noun1 stuff goes I was just refering to the substatements since a substatment or substatments can be a topic and are able to be reeled off to some extent after the topic is defined before closing the sentence (like this paragraph style sentence) I wanted to be sure of the subformat (which I now realised I should have clarified when I first asked), nevertheless thank you for clarifying and since you have graciously made the overall format to use clearer on the above sentence I will try again using that format.
ほんを私はさずけるです
Edit Not sure what you mean by imperitive yet so will look that up in mean time

Well I've looked it up and going by what I found on wikipedia (will search for it on Tae Kim's Guide in a minute) I'm gathering that I should replace that です at the end with なさい

Okay before I continue reading I need something clarified because it is confusing me, the deck says さずける means give but then the guide says くれる means give as well, are both correct and if so why is there 2 different ways of saying it?

Edit: Incendently I'm reading this page: Making Requests | Learn Japanese

 

[Toritoribe]

Do you mean さずけるなさい? If so, it's ungrammatical as same as さずけるです. You are still confusing the polite form of verbs and adjectives.

私 is interpreted as the subject of さずける in 私はさずける. The same goes to くれる.

くれる is a verb from the viewpoint of the recipient. See the following thread. (I think it's too advanced for you, though.)
Please help me understand these two sentences! ～てもらう、～てくれる | Japan Forum

さずける is understandable in imperative sentences, but くれる should be used.

 

[zxuiji]

Do you mean さずけるなさい? If so, it's ungrammatical as same as さずけるです. You are still confusing the polite form of verbs and adjectives.

I'll stick with なさい for now until I finish reading enough the guide's page to try another

くれる is a verb from the viewpoint of the recipient. See the following thread. (I think it's too advanced for you, though.)
Please help me understand these two sentences! ～てもらう、～てくれる | Japan Forum

さずける is understandable in imperative sentences, but くれる should be used.

So whenever it is a request I should be using くれる but if I am stating the action of giving such as "I will give this manual to you" or "Joe gave Sarah the key" I should use さずける is that what you mean?

私 is interpreted as the subject of さずける in 私はさずける. The same goes to くれる.

By that should I take it that should have done the equivelant of "me, book give" which would be something like 私はほんをくれるなさい

Edit: after reading a bit more I realised I should just cut the 私は and なさい bits to leave something like ほんをくれる however considering the original sentence I don't think request quite fits it, it seems like it has a more commanding tone to me so perhaps I should be looking for that in the guide.

Edit 2: Read a bit further and in regards my first edit I guess I should've used ほんをくれ

I've gotten tired of reading so I'm gonna take a break and play FFXV

 

[Toritoribe]

ほんをくれ makes sense, but note that this can mean "books in general". You need to say その/あのほんをくれ depending on the situation.

 

[Mike Cash]

I retract my suggestion that you buy Genki. i don't think you are going to benefit at all from self-study and it wood be a waste of your money.

 

[Toritoribe]

Agreed. If you can't learn from Tae Kim's site effectively, it would be more difficult to learn from Genki. Did you read the example pages I provided previously, by the way? Do you think you can read the textbook thoroughly and patiently?
My practice sentences... | Page 6 | Japan Forum

 

[zxuiji]

I'll still buy (would that be 日本語でかい? I currently only 知 the かいもの version) the genki books when I get the chance since judging by how I keep having to push the purchase back further I'll most likely end up using it for pratice once I finally do get to buy it, besides I do sometimes get bouts of long interest such as yesterday where I spent a few hours reading various things about grammar and subsequently moved onto a little of tae kims guide which I also feel like reading now so I will do so and see how far I get. I hope I used で correctly, was trying to say かい in 日本語.

Forgot to answer とりとりベ's question about whether I read the pages provided, reading the subject one now but yes for the first 2, verb I skipped since I already understood that to be an action towards something, that something I now understand to be the noun which I now understand to be the name of something of which adjectives are supposed to expand the description of.

Edit: I think I understand how the subject is defined now so in the sentence provided on the page "John - what an idiot!" it would be re-formed to something like this "Johnはwhatがidiotです" which if I'm right would translate to something like this: ジンは何がばかです

 

[Toritoribe]

I currently only 知 the かいもの version

It's useless to use just a single kanji or the stem of a verb such like 知 in a sentence since it doesn't have any inflection, i.e., it can't express what you really want to say is; know, knew, will know, have known, have been known, is known, is being known, make know, make known, don't know, didn't know, won't know, can know, please know, if know, etc., etc... In other words, it's meaningless.

was trying to say かい in 日本語

Dictionary is your friend.
buy - Jisho.org
buyの意味 - goo辞書 英和和英
buyの意味 - 英和辞典 Weblio辞書
buyの意味・用例｜英辞郎 on the WEB：アルク

Forgot to answer とりとりベ's question about whether I read the pages provided

I'm talking about the example pages of Genki, not the wiki pages.

I think I understand how the subject is defined now so in the sentence provided on the page "John - what an idiot!" it would be re-formed to something like this "Johnはwhatがidiotです" which if I'm right would translate to something like this: ジンは何がばかです

"What" is not the subject in that sentence. The exclamatory sentence is a bit special, in the first place.

 

[zxuiji]

Then I'll re-read the page then since I seem to be mis-understanding something, as for the genki examples I'll go find there links when I don't feel like reading tae kim's guide anymore

Edit: I just thought, is this one of those cases where a word or some words are omitted all together, this case being the word "what"?

Edit 2: If its しょうりゃくじゃない then is it that the subject is what is being use to describe (this case ばか) and in regards the 買う thing I had just assumed かい because I was aware that もの meant object/thing but thank you for correcting me

 

[Toritoribe]

"What" is usually classified as an exclamatory adjective even in a full exclamatory sentence "What an idiot John is!".

買い物 is a compound word, and 買い works as a kind of prefix here.

 

[zxuiji]

So then when converting a prefix back to a normal word I should swap い out for う generally, is that it?

And going by the way you rephrased the sentence should I take that as a hint to the way I should've structured the sentence when I translated it such as 何でばかがジンです (Correct me if I'm wrong but で means "an" as well right?)

 

[Mike Cash]

I give up.

 

[zxuiji]

Hey I'm still reading the guide, cut me some slack since I'm trying to understand multiple things at once while also trying to read a ton of stuff I won't immeadiatly understand without some practice that can be commented on by experienced people like you two.

I've read further and going by what I've read I realise 何でばかがジンです is also wrong beause it now says to me "John in what idiot" which could make sense in a story but not in our reality and certainly doesn't equate to what we're looking for so I'll try again only this time I'll break down how I'm seeing the sentence structure so you can help me see if and where I'm going wrong.

I see as the topic "John" so I will start with ジョンは
Next I now see "idiot" to be the subject so I will add ばかが onto that
Finally I now see "what an" to be a declaritive statement of sorts so I will add 何だ at the end, whether or not 何 is correct form of "what" to use I do not know but it is the only form I am currently familiar with and while it's easy to find the english equivelant of kanji, it's not so easy to find the kanji equiv of english so I will forgo looking in that direction and instead wait until I learn it from memrise, you guys or the tae kim guide.
So anyway my translation now looks like this ジョンはばかが何だ

 

[Mike Cash]

Hey I'm still reading the guide, cut me some slack since I'm trying to understand multiple things at once while also trying to read a ton of stuff I won't immeadiatly understand without some practice that can be commented on by experienced people like you two.

That's not the point.

The point is that nobody can get you to understand the importance of understanding what you're looking at before you go bouncing off to other things. You apparently have zero understanding of anything you've looked at, and somehow you're about 35 units into TK.

Learn one thing at a time. Understand that one thing. Check to see that you understand how to use it. Practice using it. THEN go on to the next thing. It doesn't matter if you get bored. It doesn't matter if you have a short attention span. It doesn't matter if you have learning difficulties. None of those excuse you from the necessity of learning things in a sensible order and being able to understand and use what you learned before you jump to something else.

We just repeatedly, endlessly beat our heads against the granite wall of your stubbornness trying to get you to understand that you have to understand 1 before you can learn 2 and understand 2 before you continue to 3, etc.

We can't get you to understand it or believe it. You're happy just as long as you're bouncing around from place to place pretending you're learning Japanese when all you're doing is learning a few words and phrases that you have no idea how to use. If you want to waste your time pretending you're learning Japanese, that's your business. Amuse yourself however you want. You're not serious about learning Japanese and you won't listen to anything anybody here says trying to help you. We just keep going around and around in circles. No matter how many times we do this, it's just the same old sh!t over and over again.

We can't get you to understand the importance of learning grammar because we can't get you to understand what grammar even is. We can't get you understand you can't just look things up and then strings bits and pieces together. We can't get you to look at actual textbooks or proper learning materials instead of what are at this point entirely WORTHLESS to you apps and reference materials. You are so absolutely impossible to help that there are times I suspect we're being punked.

I can't help you. I give up.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN THE ****** LANGUAGE BEFORE YOU CAN ****** TRANSLATE IT.

 

[zxuiji]

35 units into the deck is not the same as 35 units into the guide, the deck I'm mainly using to learn the words since there is far less confusing elements in it and is far easier to ingrain in my head, yes it occasionaly includes grammar to learn but it doesn't nesessarily mean I understand the grammar from the deck alone. For example I was just watching the video at the end of this page Introduction to Particles | Learn Japanese after having read through the page itself and it has made me think that rather than the が particle I should have used the を particle since "idiot" seems to be an entity to me and from what I've learned of the を particle it's supposed to define entities. I'm still not entirely clear on the が particle usage but hey, practice makes perfect right?

Also I attempt these small translations because without forcing myself to analyse how english sentences translate to japanese I'll probably never understand how to identify what to treat as topics, subjects, entities etc

 

[Toritoribe]

ジョンはなんてバカなんだろう。

As I wrote above, the exclamatory sentence is special and therefore it's not appropriate for your learning material yet. Ineffectual practice is just a waste of time.