My practice sentences...

[zxuiji]

馬耳東風、 且つ馬の耳に念仏
I was writing it into my phone then I realised I could just copy and paste into jisho which already has the combination words I was having trouble finding on my phone. I'm not a wall, I simply stand by my beliefs until I come across something (legitamate) that makes it crumble or at least wobble at which point I either admit defeat or admit my belief needs closer analysis before I continue, besides my attempts at japanese stuff my beliefs have held true so far.

 

[Mike Cash]

Just looking things up in jisho goes entirely against your method of learning Japanese, doesn't it? Did you learn any new grammars from it?

Let me know when you get those other sentences all translated.

 

[zxuiji]

Starting with this one
"I have to order a new battery for my mother's wheelchair"
watashi wa naito chuumon atachi tenchi no watashi no okka-san no kurumaisu desu
わたしは無いと注文新しい電池のわたしのおっかさんの車椅子です
I hope I got that right, if not it'll have to wait until late tomorrow (would that be morning for you guys?) or monday because I won't have the time until then

 

[zxuiji]

Just looking things up in jisho goes entirely against your method of learning Japanese, doesn't it? Did you learn any new grammars from it?

Let me know when you get those other sentences all translated.

Yes I did actually, not sure if 且つ counts as grammar but that に was not one I recall coming across before but going by the phrase given by jisho for that whole block I can gather it used to respresent into, out of and any other variation thereof.

 

[zxuiji]

Incidently I'm preparing to leave at the moment and since you were waiting for some response at least I thought I would drop my method temporarly.

Edit: またね

 

[Mike Cash]

Starting with this one
"I have to order a new battery for my mother's wheelchair"
watashi wa naito chuumon atachi tenchi no watashi no okka-san no kurumaisu desu
わたしは無いと注文新しい電池のわたしのおっかさんの車椅子です
I hope I got that right, if not it'll have to wait until late tomorrow (would that be morning for you guys?) or monday because I won't have the time until then

Could you share with us the process and reasoning you used to arrive at that translation, please?

Incidently I'm preparing to leave at the moment and since you were waiting for some response at least I thought I would drop my method temporarly.

That was a very considerate thing for you to do. You go ahead and take care of whatever it is that has to be taken care of. We'll still be here when you are free again. Enjoy your weekend.

 

[zxuiji]

That was a very considerate thing for you to do. You go ahead and take care of whatever it is that has to be taken care of. We'll still be here when you are free again. Enjoy your weekend.

I have both work and social obligations in abundance on the weekend so it's difficult to get time, this morning's social obligation is done but I still have work later so I will leave again in a couple of hours, I also work from morning to mid-afternoon on sundays (tomorrow) and straight after have gospel hall to go to (not an obligation, just like going) which leaves if not pointed out would leave you wandering after a while why I haven't replied to the post you took a moment of your time to produce. I just think it's basic etticate to not keep a person waiting (even if they're doing something else in the meantime)

Could you share with us the process and reasoning you used to arrive at that translation, please?

Well I started by typing out the words I did know in the order I was expecting to put them, then since I already knew about the の particle I decided to go ahead and put those in next, since I was unsure about how to handle multiple of them I googled something along the lines of "multiple possessives japanese" and found this "No", the Modifying Particle | Japanese Professor at the top of the links, some ways down the page it showed an example of what I was looking which seemed to confirm the way I had originally guessed was correct, next I began looking for the words I didn't know on jisho (where multiple showed up I selected the one I thought it should be) and inserted those where I thought they should go, finally I tried to add what grammar I thought was missing. I know that's not the proper way to produce a sentence but when I'm still learning I don't see any other option besides cheating and putting it into google translate or similar.

 

[zxuiji]

I have both work and social obligations in abundance on the weekend so it's difficult to get time, this morning's social obligation is done but I still have work later so I will leave again in a couple of hours, I also work from morning to mid-afternoon on sundays (tomorrow) and straight after have gospel hall to go to (not an obligation, just like going) which leaves if not pointed out would leave you wandering after a while why I haven't replied to the post you took a moment of your time to produce. I just think it's basic etticate to not keep a person waiting (even if they're doing something else in the meantime)

I felt you were being a little sarcastic with your words but I may have been wrong, if I was then my apologies.

 

[Mike Cash]

I felt you were being a little sarcastic with your words but I may have been wrong, if I was then my apologies.

No apology necessary. I was entirely sincere, by the way.

 

[zxuiji]

In that case thanks, btw was I close to being right with that first sentence? I'm not expecting to be entirely right but it would nice if I was at least close.

 

[Mike Cash]

In that case thanks, btw was I close to being right with that first sentence? I'm not expecting to be entirely right but it would nice if I was at least close.

You missed it a hundred miles.

 

[zxuiji]

Damn, was there any grammar that was correct? Even if it was in the wrong place I can at least focus on correcting that position and the grammar used on the rest.

 

[Mike Cash]

Damn, was there any grammar that was correct? Even if it was in the wrong place I can at least focus on correcting that position and the grammar used on the rest.

Everything you're doing is just blind guesswork. You're going to have to study the language first. Eventually you'll realize that and then we can put this pointless and fruitless silliness behind us and work on your Japanese learning in a sensible and productive way.

 

[zxuiji]

The reason I'm doing it this way in the first place is because no matter how much I read about the grammar I'm not getting it so I need to do it the hard way with a small subset so that I do finally get it.

 

[Mike Cash]

You need lessons from a textbook.

You going to keep working on those sentences?

 

[zxuiji]

I will get the textbooks when my circumstances allow but for now I will work with what I can, as for the sentences I will do the next one after I get the first one correct, if I'm to start getting them consistently correct then I need to be able to analyse my mistakes on the previous one/s, to do that I need to know what I got wrong such as clitics, their positions, the conjegations etc, I don't need to be told how to fix it only what is wrong with it so I know where I need to re-think how I try using it.

 

[Mike Cash]

For the millionth time, this will not work.

People have given you useful suggestions that take into consideration the money situation, but you pigheadedly refuse to listen to anybody.

 

[zxuiji]

Yes and WHEN I understand what these grammar articles are getting at with the basic stuff I will move onto the next set of grammar to understand. I NEED to use the grammar in various ways to understand it enough that I actually use it correctly hence why I wanted a list to practice with, I've read what there is to read and if it's just 2 words (not including the politeness stuff) then I can use the grammar just fine however that's not good enough for me, I want to understand the grammar in sentences as lengthy as what you mentioned and to do that I must first go through the failures no matter how frustrating I or anyone else finds it. It's like teaching mathmatics to someone who has serious trouble with it, you keep trying by getting them to solve steadily more difficult problems until they have a proper grasp of it.

 

[zxuiji]

Instead of thinking of various ways to explain this to me would it not be easier to just point out the faults and let me get on with the painful process I need to go through to understand the grammar usage while you go help someone who is understanding how to use the grammar.

 

[Mike Cash]

In case you haven't noticed, everybody else has washed their hands of you. I'm just almost as pigheaded as you are or I would have given up as well.

Borrowing your math analogy, you're like somebody who hasn't even learned to count to ten yet but who insists on learning addition and subtraction by having people provide him with quadratic equations for him to solve. The idea is naive, uninformed, misguided, and totally unworkable.

You're not going to magically figure out Japanese sentence construction by repeatedly rearranging stuff until somebody tells you that you got it. Your method doesn't even get you the right bits to rearrange to begin with. Like I said, your guess missed a hundred miles. You can't possibly get it with hints and prodding. IT ****** WILL NOT WORK AND IT NEVER WILL WORK. IT IS TOTALLY ****** UNDOABLE. Get that through your skull. I've been helping people with learning Japanese online one place or another for about twenty years now and you absolutely take the cake when it comes to being absolutely, utterly, totally, and apparently irredeemably hopeless....and it isn't because you're stoopid...it is because you are as stubborn as a blue-nosed mule and just totally ignore and reject all attempts to guide you toward making any progress at all, instead insisting on clinging to this method you are convinced is going to work for you despite zero evidence for it and unanimous assurances from everyone that it will not work.

You are going to have to approach this in a rational and sensible manner and spend time learning the language instead of thinking you are special enough to reverse-engineer it.... you're not.

Have you so much as even LOOKED at the Tae Kim Grammar Guide yet? It will do you until you can afford a textbook.

I'm tired of riding your merry-go-round. You can get off of it and work on learning the material before you try applying the material, in which case we will be glad to help you all we can. Or you can cling to this train wreck of a method you have dreamed up and just do the best you can without help. Your choice.

 

[zxuiji]

It's not pig headedness to admit I'm having trouble understanding how to move from mini statements/questions to small statments/questions, that first sentence comes under medium statments of which I tried only because you gave it as the first one, I was more inclined to try the 5th one instead first which seemed far easier and more likely to fit into the small statement/question category.

Neither is it pig headedness to show patience with someone who is truly trying learn, if anything despite your occasional outburst I'm still grateful that you try at all. I knew that first sentence was too much for me to hope to get right on the first try and it is disappointing that I was miles off but even in that much can be learned such as whether I was supposed to break the statement down into smaller statments and wether I'm understanding breakdown of the sentence properly or whether I'm using the particles correctly and wether I'm putting them in the right position of either side of the words.

 

[zxuiji]

I've started getting small sentences appearing on my app so I'll take another crack at the sentence when I get back from work but for now またね。

 

[mdchachi]

Well at least I'm trying, I'm sure you've come across plenty of others who simply gave up right?

True. You will be in that group sooner or later. Probably sooner.

The reason I'm doing it this way in the first place is because no matter how much I read about the grammar I'm not getting it so I need to do it the hard way with a small subset so that I do finally get it.

Where are you reading about the grammar that are you are not getting? If it's not working, try a different source until you find one that works for you.
Did you try Tae Kim's guide that has been recommended a number of times?

I want to understand the grammar in sentences as lengthy as what you mentioned and to do that I must first go through the failures no matter how frustrating I or anyone else finds it. It's like teaching mathmatics to someone who has serious trouble with it, you keep trying by getting them to solve steadily more difficult problems until they have a proper grasp of it.

You're going to run out of people willing to help you. You're essentially asking for free tutoring, even on things that are readily available in textbooks and other sources. It's like somebody insisting on learning how to multiply when they don't understand addition, and refusing to look at all the various sources that explain it.

Instead of thinking of various ways to explain this to me would it not be easier to just point out the faults and let me get on with the painful process I need to go through to understand the grammar usage while you go help someone who is understanding how to use the grammar.

As is apparent from this thread, you don't even know what "grammar" means so it's going to be nearly impossible to help you. It doesn't have to be a "painful" process. That's an indication that you are using a poor process. Find a better way. Try listening to advice from people who have already been there, done that.

 

[zxuiji]

I forgot about the clocks going an hour forward tonight, I'll have to answer posts tomorrow afternoon and retry the sentence then, I think I begining to understand why I wasn't getting it and I can try that theory tomorrow, oyasumii

 

[zxuiji]

If my hunch is right the reason I wasn't getting the grammar right was because I had misunderstood how the SOV stuff was defined, I was treating the O part as a literal object and I forgot to look up what a verb was and ended up treat verbs as subjects and objects.
Here is my next try:

I have to order a new battery for my mother's wheelchair.

watashi ga chuumon naito wa tenchi atachi ni watashi no okka-san no kurumaisu desu
私が注文無いとは電池新しいに私のおっかさんの車椅子です