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Man I Am Mad!!!!

Golgo_13

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CC1 said:
I still say that it should be required of women also, and not just young men!

Then the National Organization for Women (NOW) would start bitching that serving in the military is a man's job.
 

King of Tokyo

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I could write an extremely long argument (like I have before on other forums) about the draft, but I won't, and I'll just simply state that I disagree with it completely.

What I will say is that to be honest, if I was American instead of Canadian, and the draft happened to me, I would have a cool opportunity, heh, if the draft was reinstated and I was called to war, my parents would give me a substantial amount of money and then let me go live in Japan.. Heh.. which I do believe would rule pretty hard.. haha..

But anyway I heard somewhere that if they reinstate the draft that they will be able to draft Canadians too because of some treaty that was signed in 2001.. Is this true ? Can anyone confirm or debunk this rumor ?
 

Saria

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glad I'm not a guy... if I was they could teach me to shoot a gun, they could teach me how to march... but they couldn't make me kill. wonder if you can get off on the gay excuse any more?
 

Winter

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I remember how eager I was to join when I was nearing the end of my high school days. I served 2 years, and came out a very apathetic dullard; sans the lack of intelligence in most dullards.

Anyway, all this talk about people refusing to fight for a war they dont believe in; what war would you believe in? What war would get you off your couch, and into a uniform? What would it take for you to stand up and brave the battlefront?

Oh, and I like what Mike had to say about the Navy. I joined because I wanted to be a cook on the ships. I never got to, but I still got to work on ships, and surprisingly enough, it was incredibly fullfilling. I also spent a lot of time with the chefs, so it all worked out sorta.

I also got to go to a culinary academy in San Francisco thanks to the veteran efforts.
 

Golgo_13

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Winter said:
I remember how eager I was to join when I was nearing the end of my high school days. I served 2 years, and came out a very apathetic dullard; sans the lack of intelligence in most dullards.

Anyway, all this talk about people refusing to fight for a war they dont believe in; what war would you believe in? What war would get you off your couch, and into a uniform? What would it take for you to stand up and brave the battlefront?

Oh, and I like what Mike had to say about the Navy. I joined because I wanted to be a cook on the ships. I never got to, but I still got to work on ships, and surprisingly enough, it was incredibly fullfilling. I also spent a lot of time with the chefs, so it all worked out sorta.

I also got to go to a culinary academy in San Francisco thanks to the veteran efforts.

Thank you for serving and protecting your country. 👍
 

Winter

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Golgo: No one has ever said that to me. Ever. Not a soul.

I actually got a tear reading that...
 

Brooker

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Winter wrote....
Anyway, all this talk about people refusing to fight for a war they dont believe in; what war would you believe in? What war would get you off your couch, and into a uniform? What would it take for you to stand up and brave the battlefront?

WWII was worth fighting. This war isn't. Do you believe that there are causes that aren't worth fighting for? Or would you fight for any cause just because your country told you to? What if you were German and Hitler told you to fight? If you didn't believe in Hitler's cause would you still fight? Would it be unpatriotic or cowardly not to fight? If your answer is "yes", we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. For me, the situation in America right now is objectionable in a similar way fighting for Hitler would be. I'm not exaggerating, I really believe that what's going on now is wrong, America is acting like the bad guy, and I'm not going to fight for the bad guy. I still love my country and I'm praying for things to improve.
 

Winter

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Brooker said:
WWII was worth fighting. This war isn't. Do you believe that there are causes that aren't worth fighting for? Or would you fight for any cause just because your country told you to? What if you were German and Hitler told you to fight? If you didn't believe in Hitler's cause would you still fight? Would it be unpatriotic or cowardly not to fight? If your answer is "yes", we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. For me, the situation in America right now is objectionable in a similar way fighting for Hitler would be. I'm not exaggerating, I really believe that what's going on now is wrong, America is acting like the bad guy, and I'm not going to fight for the bad guy. I still love my country and I'm praying for things to improve.

You first assume I'm patriotic. I am not.

I served because it was a family tradition. We are a very military-republican family, and I just continued the 'legacy'.

I would agree with the war in Iraq however. I think it was a war worth fighting. Why? Because I disagree with the previous leaders' treatment on his people.

I dont see how people can not think stopping a man from destroying his people isnt a just cause.

But, most people argue that 'That wasnt our goal in the war.' So what? It was an inevitable outcome, and an outcome I think worth striving for; regardless of the initial goal of whomever decided to go.

Also, let me remind that I am not patriotic. I've got my own set of ideals, and my own set of doctrines. Along with sticking to familia tradition, I am glad I served the country because it was my part in maintaining the freedom for me, myself, to have my own set of ideals, seperate from the nations popular doctrine.

If I were German, and was told to fight for hitler, I probably would have in the beginning. Not because of the racial supremecy, but because Hitler was a very good leader in getting his people out of the financial slump that they were in before he took power.

If I was able to see past the propaganda, and had the opportunity to see firsthand *or even had an inclination of the truth* of the genocidal movement, and the obliteration of poland, and france, I'd defect, and immediately join a resistance. I dont care about patriotism, if the patriot-act is to defy what I normally believe in terms of human decency and freedom.

I believe in what I believe in, and its just a coincidence that a lot of what I abide by, goes alongside with what the US was based on.

If the US were to completely defy what I personally believed in, to the point of committing ethnic cleansing, then I would immediately take action to stay true to my personal beliefs.

I dont ally myself with a country for the sake of patriotism; in fact, I've been considered by my higher ups during my service as a lesser-anarchist. I abide by myself, and my own beliefs, and whatever cause is defending them, is the cause I fight in.

Like I said before, as of right now, its only a coincidence that the cause in question just happens to be one of the many causes of the US.


Here is a tidbit for you though. Did you know that we didnt enter the war to 'save' the Jewish people? Nor was it to stop the Nazi regime from dominating half of the world.

We entered the war, because we enticed the Japanese. The attack on Pearl Harbor was not unprovoked. We had placed an embargo on the supplyment of equipment and arms on Japan, and since their troops were gradually starving, they attacked us to defend themself.

*Remember, USA was an isolationalist system at that time*

My point is, the main goal of the govt of the US was NOT anything that would dictate the normal person with decent humanity to fight. The overlying goal at the time was basically...well nevermind. Anyway, I'm saying regardless of what the govt. sees as their goal, the individual can see other goals that are inevitable to join the cause, and thereby making the cause just. Stopping the Nazis was a common goal for the soldiers, but it wasnt the goal for the US.

Now I still agree with you that WWII was worth fighting, but not on the side of America.

Personally I think the Russians had the most just goal. Its just too bad that they had Stalin....that just ruined everything.
 

Golgo_13

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Winter said:
We entered the war, because we enticed the Japanese. The attack on Pearl Harbor was not unprovoked.

Somehow, all the aircraft carriers of the Pacific Fleet mysteriously left the harbor before the attack as if the attack was imminent. Just leaving one old battleship.
 

bossel

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Winter said:
Personally I think the Russians had the most just goal.
:? In invading Poland?
Nope, esp. the SU was as wrong as Nazi-Germany. They were of course attacked by Germany, but that was only a question of "who attacks first". It's just very convenient for the SU that Germany attacked first, that made it a lot easier to identify the "bad guy".
 

Winter

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bossel said:
:? In invading Poland?
Nope, esp. the SU was as wrong as Nazi-Germany. They were of course attacked by Germany, but that was only a question of "who attacks first". It's just very convenient for the SU that Germany attacked first, that made it a lot easier to identify the "bad guy".

No silly.

That goes along the lines of why I said Stalin ruined things.

They actually did a helluva job pushing the Nazis back for as long as they did, and as much as they did, and liberated a few countries from Nazi rule along the way.

I guess I should have included Ivan the Terrible, and Lenin with him, huh?

*shakes head* Arai...
 

bossel

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Winter said:
No silly.

That goes along the lines of why I said Stalin ruined things.

They actually did a helluva job pushing the Nazis back for as long as they did, and as much as they did, and liberated a few countries from Nazi rule along the way.

I guess I should have included Ivan the Terrible, and Lenin with him, huh?

*shakes head* Arai...
I still can't see, why they should have had the "most just goal".
If you call that liberation, then I understand why you support the Iraq war.
 

Mike Cash

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Golgo_13 said:
Somehow, all the aircraft carriers of the Pacific Fleet mysteriously left the harbor before the attack as if the attack was imminent. Just leaving one old battleship.

What's mysterious about carrier groups going out and doing exercises?

And Commander Navy Region Hawaii would like you to know,

"The eight battleships in port were attacked with bombs and torpedoes designed for the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor. Five battleships and three other ships were sunk or beached; three battleships and ten other ships were damaged."

(http://www.hawaii.navy.mil/cnbdata/cnbdata/7Dec98/virtour.htm)
 

Saria

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Winter said:
You first assume I'm patriotic. I am not.

I served because it was a family tradition. We are a very military-republican family, and I just continued the 'legacy'.

I would agree with the war in Iraq however. I think it was a war worth fighting. Why? Because I disagree with the previous leaders' treatment on his people.

I dont see how people can not think stopping a man from destroying his people isnt a just cause.

But, most people argue that 'That wasnt our goal in the war.' So what? It was an inevitable outcome, and an outcome I think worth striving for; regardless of the initial goal of whomever decided to go.

Also, let me remind that I am not patriotic. I've got my own set of ideals, and my own set of doctrines. Along with sticking to familia tradition, I am glad I served the country because it was my part in maintaining the freedom for me, myself, to have my own set of ideals, seperate from the nations popular doctrine.

If I were German, and was told to fight for hitler, I probably would have in the beginning. Not because of the racial supremecy, but because Hitler was a very good leader in getting his people out of the financial slump that they were in before he took power.

If I was able to see past the propaganda, and had the opportunity to see firsthand *or even had an inclination of the truth* of the genocidal movement, and the obliteration of poland, and france, I'd defect, and immediately join a resistance. I dont care about patriotism, if the patriot-act is to defy what I normally believe in terms of human decency and freedom.

I believe in what I believe in, and its just a coincidence that a lot of what I abide by, goes alongside with what the US was based on.

If the US were to completely defy what I personally believed in, to the point of committing ethnic cleansing, then I would immediately take action to stay true to my personal beliefs.

I dont ally myself with a country for the sake of patriotism; in fact, I've been considered by my higher ups during my service as a lesser-anarchist. I abide by myself, and my own beliefs, and whatever cause is defending them, is the cause I fight in.

Like I said before, as of right now, its only a coincidence that the cause in question just happens to be one of the many causes of the US.


Here is a tidbit for you though. Did you know that we didnt enter the war to 'save' the Jewish people? Nor was it to stop the Nazi regime from dominating half of the world.

We entered the war, because we enticed the Japanese. The attack on Pearl Harbor was not unprovoked. We had placed an embargo on the supplyment of equipment and arms on Japan, and since their troops were gradually starving, they attacked us to defend themself.

*Remember, USA was an isolationalist system at that time*

My point is, the main goal of the govt of the US was NOT anything that would dictate the normal person with decent humanity to fight. The overlying goal at the time was basically...well nevermind. Anyway, I'm saying regardless of what the govt. sees as their goal, the individual can see other goals that are inevitable to join the cause, and thereby making the cause just. Stopping the Nazis was a common goal for the soldiers, but it wasnt the goal for the US.

Now I still agree with you that WWII was worth fighting, but not on the side of America.

Personally I think the Russians had the most just goal. Its just too bad that they had Stalin....that just ruined everything.

😊 umn the U.S. put Assama in power..... so it was technicly our foult to begin with. the U.S. was trying to clean up it's mess.... but like always makes things worse over there. :( I don't bklame them for hating us sniffle
 

Golgo_13

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Saria said:
😊 umn the U.S. put Assama in power..... so it was technicly our foult to begin with. the U.S. was trying to clean up it's mess.... but like always makes things worse over there. :( I don't bklame them for hating us sniffle

Who's Assama?

No, the U.S. did NOT put Osama Bin Ladin in power.
 

Jean-Francois

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Here's the good thing the U.S. of A.

I watch American, Canadian and Chinese T.V. all the time, and from what I've seen, the severest critric of the U.S. government are Americans themselves!
 

Brooker

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@Winter....
Thank-you for explaining your views. Although my views may differ a bit, I understand your standpoint. It's obvious that you've given it a lot of thought and know what you believe in. I respect that. I don't like when people go along with the war just because they haven't given it much thought or they do it just because they think they should, and you haven't done that. 🙂
 

DoctorP

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While there are some very good answers on here...

One that I don't buy is "I never asked to be born into this country" doesn't cut it! Ok, I get it...you never asked to be American, or Mexican, or Canadian whatever. But think about this...was your government sitting there asking for you to be born? Probably not! Therefore they didn't ask for you to become a burden on the system either. If you want to complain about something being broken, please be "grown up" enough to propose a way to correct the situation...and I don't mean "well just do away with the draft...we don't need it". While it is not needed now, it may be necessary in the future. It has been 30+ years since a draft was utilized. There is no present danger of it being used now even. If you don't want to sign up fine...live with the consequences. That is your right! That is your choice please feel free to do as you wish...but do not gripe about the possible penalties imposed by your government for not following the laws and regulations put into place by the elected officials over time acting as representatives of the citizens of said country! ☝
 
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Saria said:
😊 umn the U.S. put Assama in power..... so it was technicly our foult to begin with. the U.S. was trying to clean up it's mess.... but like always makes things worse over there. :( I don't bklame them for hating us sniffle

No, Osama came to power on his own.. the US didn't do that. What we did was try and train the Afghanis to fight the Russians by offering training and weapons, not completeing what we started. In actuality, we didn't need to be there because the Russians found themselves unable to fight at that altitude (HINDS would stall out at the top of the mountain and couldn't start again! haha.) and were going to withdraw anyway.

I agree with Winter that we may have not had clear cut reasoning for going over a second time, but stopping an evil dictator and his worse sons from causing more harm to their people was a just outcome.

Ant
 
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You know what? Now that I don't have my angry pants on today, I re-read the post TimF originally had started this thread with, and I can say that looking back at my own experiences growing up I can see what angle he's coming from.

Tim, the selective service is merely a milestone you reach when you become of age. Regardless of what people tell you about the draft and Vietnam, do not listen to the negative aspect of it. A lot has to go wrong in order for our government to reinstate a draft, and depending on what happens IF you were ever to get drafted, many factors would determine what you would be doing in such an instance.

You'll be tested thouroughly, given a nice little set of questions to help our US government determine where they can use you. And it doesn't always mean infantry, either :) Honestly, you may get a nice job in the service that can lead to a wonderful career. I have many friends that had to join the military or end up in jail, they all are doing great in the workplace now.

So, I can understand how you may not agree with the policies that Bush has set up, or the way that we are half-assedly sometimes trodding through this mess, but rest assured people will still be proud of you.

So, in closing, I can say that I understand where you are coming from. You needed to vent, I had my angry pants on and now I can understand and remember, I was much like you then.

Peace,

Ant
 

Brooker

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From what I've seen of my friends who joined the military, they got out with no money and no useful skills to help them get a job. Sure they weren't the most driven guys to begin with, but their time in the military seemed like a complete waste of time as far as the paths of their lives were concearned.

One friend spent all his time painting ships and the other spent the whole time chasing girls and smoking pot. (They were enlisted before the war). The only reason they joined up in the first place was because they weren't college-bound and they didn't feel like they had any other options.

I don't necessarily think military service is pointless, but I don't think young guys should join thinking that they're going to "save the world" or be set up with great opportunities for the rest of their lives. I'm sure it's possible to get good experience out of the military, but it seems a little rare.

I think Tim's main objection was his lack of choice in the matter. Because aren't choices what freedom is all about? If he wants to sign up, he should be able to sign up, if he doesn't want to sign up, he shouldn't have to. And telling you "Do it, go to jail, or get out of the country" isn't what I call choices.

BTW, I don't think the U.S. reinstating the draft is such a far-fetched thing. Yeah, that would mean that a lot of things would have to go wrong first, but things have gone wrong before and they could easily go wrong again.
 

Mike Cash

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You guys think freedom just fell out of the damned sky one day?
 

Brooker

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If you're referring to The Revolutionary War, most of those soldiers were volunteers. You don't have to take away freedom to get freedom.
 

King of Tokyo

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mikecash said:
You guys think freedom just fell out of the damned sky one day?

Brooker said:
If you're referring to The Revolutionary War, most of those soldiers were volunteers. You don't have to take away freedom to get freedom.

Ooooh Good Comeback.. Heh.. I like this debate.. I seem to agree with mikecash on many things.. Plus he's my good pal who reminds me of the negative sides of things.. Heh.. But I'd have to side with Brooker this particular time.. "You don't have to take away freedom to get freedom" is an excellent way to put it.

No matter how patriotic people feel, I still don't see why they believe government should be able to put you against your will into something you don't want to do, and don't agree with. Not to mention most likely the letter of drafting is equivalent to a Notice of Death.. You're never secure at war and if you make it out it is simply luck. And if you do live, You may get to go home with the memories of murdering people and seeing your friends murdered in front of your eyes.

If you want to volunteer then I'm all for that. But, Simply put, you should not be forced into something you believe is wrong and don't want to partake in.
 

Duo

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Golgo_13 said:
Who's Assama?

No, the U.S. did NOT put Osama Bin Ladin in power.

Hmm, c'mon he was ur buddy against the Soviets. Also the US put the taliban in power as well.
 
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