Losing faith in learning Japanese
- Thread starter kinjo
- Start date
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- 6 Mar 2003
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For self-study, I'd recommend picking up a copy of Pimsleur. Or, perhaps, Berlitz. Amazon.com: Pimsleur Japanese Level 1 CD: Learn to Speak and Understand Japanese with Pimsleur Language Programs (1) (Comprehensive) (9780743523530): Pimsleur: Books
Check Ebay for used copies.
The disadvantage to the method you have been following -- that of plowing through books -- is that even if you do understand the grammar you won't have had enough aural/oral practice to actually say anything. Start with the aural/oral stuff and start learning to speak without understanding the grammar behind it. (After all that's how we all learned to speak originally.)
That's assuming you want to learn how to speak. If your priority is reading comic books then my advice probably doesn't apply.
If you have no real reason to study Japanese except you thought you'd try it just for the heck of it, then consider giving it up and spending the time getting a fluent in a language that is generally more useful for your life. After all, Japanese is the official language in only one country.
Check Ebay for used copies.
The disadvantage to the method you have been following -- that of plowing through books -- is that even if you do understand the grammar you won't have had enough aural/oral practice to actually say anything. Start with the aural/oral stuff and start learning to speak without understanding the grammar behind it. (After all that's how we all learned to speak originally.)
That's assuming you want to learn how to speak. If your priority is reading comic books then my advice probably doesn't apply.
If you have no real reason to study Japanese except you thought you'd try it just for the heck of it, then consider giving it up and spending the time getting a fluent in a language that is generally more useful for your life. After all, Japanese is the official language in only one country.
文には同じ表現を繰り返したら、考えて違う言い方を考え方ほうがいいと思います。
It looks like a question of subtle nuance and preferences.
I thought these two sentences were completely correct and natural, but now I'll give it a thought.
日本語を止（や）めたいと思った事もありましたが、日本語を 止（や）めない事にしました。
日本語を諦（あきら）めたいと思った事もありましたが、日本語を 諦（あきら）めない事にしました。
やめる
means to stop rather casually.
It means あきらめる as the case may be.
あきらめる
You have significant reason and will to achieve something. But your circumstances won't allow it, or it is too hard to be done. There might be a lot of efforts until now and you've finally exhausted. There is nothing for it but to stop it. Maybe you won't start again.
あきらめたい
So, "I want to あきらめる." doesn't make sense. You never want to be forced to abandon what you want.
"あきらめてしまいたい"
"やめてしまいたい" are better.
Sorry, now I'm in work place. My boss may notice my too long rest.
I thought these two sentences were completely correct and natural, but now I'll give it a thought.
日本語を止（や）めたいと思った事もありましたが、日本語を 止（や）めない事にしました。
日本語を諦（あきら）めたいと思った事もありましたが、日本語を 諦（あきら）めない事にしました。
やめる
means to stop rather casually.
It means あきらめる as the case may be.
あきらめる
You have significant reason and will to achieve something. But your circumstances won't allow it, or it is too hard to be done. There might be a lot of efforts until now and you've finally exhausted. There is nothing for it but to stop it. Maybe you won't start again.
あきらめたい
So, "I want to あきらめる." doesn't make sense. You never want to be forced to abandon what you want.
"あきらめてしまいたい"
"やめてしまいたい" are better.
Sorry, now I'm in work place. My boss may notice my too long rest.
Wow... I am once again amazed at your english... after 5 years of learning french i wasn't nearly as good as that.
there were just some minor things that didn't sound quite right to me:
"It looks like a question of subtle nuance and preferences." is a very nice way to say it, but "...a question of subtle nuance and preference." sounds better to me. when used in this way, the word "preference" usually is not put into the plural.
"I thought these two sentences..." is better expressed using "I thought both of these sentences...".
i'm not quite sure what you mean by "It means あきらめる as the case may be."... i think you meant to say "It means あきらめる in some cases."
"There might have been a lot of efforts until now and you are finally exhausted." would be better than "There might be a lot of efforts until now and you've finally exhausted."
"There is nothing left to do but to stop." is better than "There is nothing for it but to stop it."
i hope you don't mind me correcting your post... your english is very good and all that is left for you to do is to polish up some of the finer details, so hang in there!
there were just some minor things that didn't sound quite right to me:
"It looks like a question of subtle nuance and preferences." is a very nice way to say it, but "...a question of subtle nuance and preference." sounds better to me. when used in this way, the word "preference" usually is not put into the plural.
"I thought these two sentences..." is better expressed using "I thought both of these sentences...".
i'm not quite sure what you mean by "It means あきらめる as the case may be."... i think you meant to say "It means あきらめる in some cases."
"There might have been a lot of efforts until now and you are finally exhausted." would be better than "There might be a lot of efforts until now and you've finally exhausted."
"There is nothing left to do but to stop." is better than "There is nothing for it but to stop it."
i hope you don't mind me correcting your post... your english is very good and all that is left for you to do is to polish up some of the finer details, so hang in there!
Thank you very much! MikeH85 san.
I greatly appreciate your correcting my English. I must confess that's the reason why I appear here. Polishing up my English can't be done all by myself. And another thing I must admit is that the "5 years" I wrote doesn't include my school days. I think we Japanese tend to say our study-period in such way, because it's too long and make us ashamed for the ability.
I hope you will kindly do this over and over again if you like.
Elizabeth san, まいど～、いつも読んでます your posts。This is a question of "which do you like?" Today I have been obsessed by this phrase all day long and eventually don't know which I like, which sounds natural to me.
I have to be cooled down. ごめんね。 :sorry:
それじゃ、また！
I greatly appreciate your correcting my English. I must confess that's the reason why I appear here. Polishing up my English can't be done all by myself. And another thing I must admit is that the "5 years" I wrote doesn't include my school days. I think we Japanese tend to say our study-period in such way, because it's too long and make us ashamed for the ability.
I hope you will kindly do this over and over again if you like.
Elizabeth san, まいど～、いつも読んでます your posts。This is a question of "which do you like?" Today I have been obsessed by this phrase all day long and eventually don't know which I like, which sounds natural to me.
I have to be cooled down. ごめんね。 :sorry:
それじゃ、また！
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
こんにちわ みんなさん！
ちょっと難しいテーマの文は頑張って書いててね。 多分、こんなフォーラムは完璧よりも参加に意義がありますね。でも秋葉原のような私も完璧主義者だと言われているかもしれません (am called, can be called?)
日本語では特に「止める」という言葉の使い方はおかしいです。たとえば、日本人にとって何か始める前にも「止める」ことが出来ると思います。英語で[Won't do, stop thinking about doing it]に近く感じられます。 サテ、間違いがあってごめんなさい。 このごろ、忙しくなっているしまうので。。。。
ちょっと難しいテーマの文は頑張って書いててね。 多分、こんなフォーラムは完璧よりも参加に意義がありますね。でも秋葉原のような私も完璧主義者だと言われているかもしれません (am called, can be called?)
日本語では特に「止める」という言葉の使い方はおかしいです。たとえば、日本人にとって何か始める前にも「止める」ことが出来ると思います。英語で[Won't do, stop thinking about doing it]に近く感じられます。 サテ、間違いがあってごめんなさい。 このごろ、忙しくなっているしまうので。。。。
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完璧主義(かんぺきしゅぎ）はいいことだと思います。ネイティブのようにマスターしたいのなら、とても細(こま）かいことにまでこだわる必要（ひつよう）があると思います。
I believe perfectionist attitude pays off. If you want to acquire a foreign language ability comparable to native speakers, you must dig into details perfectly.
みなさんの疑問（ぎもん）に触発（しょくはつ）されて、よく知っているはずの言葉（ことば）をもう一度よく考えてみると、実（じつ）はそう簡単（かんたん）ではなく、疑問を持つのももっともだということに気がついて楽しいです。
All your questions provoke me into contemplating what's supposed to be familier to me. And it's fun, I find that actually those questions are not so easy and certainly natural for you to wonder.
でもほんと、難しくてがんばらないと書けません。
But, really, it's so difficult that I have to roll up my sleeves.
日本語の"やめる" と英語の "stop" は、どうニュアンスが違うのかしら？
I wonder what's the difference between Japanese "やめる" and English "stop".
確かにおっしゃるとおり、"やめる" には、"やめておく" の意味があります。
It's just as you say. "やめる(stop)" includes the meaning of "やめておく"
Before somebody starts something, you can say "stop it!" (in Japanese).
でもやはり、状況がわかりやすいのは "やめておきなさい" か "やめときなさい" かな。
After all I agree that "stop thinking about doing it" will make a situation clear even in Japanese.
ちなみに、
"ちょっと難しいテーマだけど頑張って書いてね。"、がいいと思います。
「こんな」は否定的な意味がありますので、この場合は「このような」がいいです。
"Kon'na" has negative meanings. "konoyouna" is better in this case.
"日本語では特に「止める」という言葉の使い方は 変わっていると思います。"、がいいと思います。
じゃ、またね。
I believe perfectionist attitude pays off. If you want to acquire a foreign language ability comparable to native speakers, you must dig into details perfectly.
みなさんの疑問（ぎもん）に触発（しょくはつ）されて、よく知っているはずの言葉（ことば）をもう一度よく考えてみると、実（じつ）はそう簡単（かんたん）ではなく、疑問を持つのももっともだということに気がついて楽しいです。
All your questions provoke me into contemplating what's supposed to be familier to me. And it's fun, I find that actually those questions are not so easy and certainly natural for you to wonder.
でもほんと、難しくてがんばらないと書けません。
But, really, it's so difficult that I have to roll up my sleeves.
日本語の"やめる" と英語の "stop" は、どうニュアンスが違うのかしら？
I wonder what's the difference between Japanese "やめる" and English "stop".
確かにおっしゃるとおり、"やめる" には、"やめておく" の意味があります。
It's just as you say. "やめる(stop)" includes the meaning of "やめておく"
まだ始めていないのに、"やめなさい" と言えます。（ Stop = Don't start )Elizabeth said:
Before somebody starts something, you can say "stop it!" (in Japanese).
でもやはり、状況がわかりやすいのは "やめておきなさい" か "やめときなさい" かな。
After all I agree that "stop thinking about doing it" will make a situation clear even in Japanese.
ちなみに、
I think you mean, (although a bit difficult theme of sentence).Elizabeth said:
"ちょっと難しいテーマだけど頑張って書いてね。"、がいいと思います。
"多分、このようなフォーラムは完璧よりも参加に意義がありますね。"、がいいです。Elizabeth said:
「こんな」は否定的な意味がありますので、この場合は「このような」がいいです。
"Kon'na" has negative meanings. "konoyouna" is better in this case.
"秋葉原のように私も"、がいいです。Elizabeth said:
I think you mean,「止める」is slightly different nuance from your language and you sense odd feeling.Elizabeth said:
"日本語では特に「止める」という言葉の使い方は 変わっていると思います。"、がいいと思います。
"日本人にとっては何か始める前にも"、がいいと思います。Elizabeth said:
Perfect. And same in "英語の[Won't do....".Elizabeth said:
"サテ、間違いがあったらごめんなさい。"、がいいです。Elizabeth said:
"このごろ、忙しくなってしまっていますので。。。。"、がいいです。Elizabeth said:
じゃ、またね。
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書きましたね」はチュータさんが送ってくれた過去形の文です。
その文を、「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書いてて」と（の？）現在進行形のに変えたですね。
でも始めの文でも意味がちゃんとわからないです。 「頑張って」はもう終わった事に何かに使えますか？即ち、「過去形の動詞」の前に「頑張って」という言葉がよくついていますか？
You did your best writing (this text) on a somewhat difficult theme, didn't you.....You're writing your best on a slightly difficult theme, aren't you.... :?
それと「頑張って書いてください」のほうがいいかな？
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こんにちわ。
なんか、日本語と英語の考え方の違いを見たようで、思わず割り込んでしまいました。
その場合も、「間違っててごめん」と言ったほうが自然な日本語になります。
エリザベスさんが、最初(さいしょ)に投稿(とうこう)をしたときには、
誰も間違いを指摘しないので、
「投稿した文の中に間違いがあったらごめん」という意味で、
「間違いがあったらごめん」を使います。
チュータさんの文がまさにその例です。
この場合は、英語でいうと Good Job や Well done のような、
仕事をやりとげたときに使うことばになります。
わたしはチュータさんの文章を
Well done on a somewhat difficult theme.
と訳してみました。
また、「頑張って書いた」と書くと、これはチュータさんが使うことばではなく、
書いた本人のエリザベスさんが使うことばになります。
I did it とか、仕事をやりとげた時に使う言葉です。
I did my best writing on a somewhat difficult theme.
と訳してみました。
「書く」動作をずっとつづけていなさいという感じになります。
例えば、学校の先生が、授業中に何かの理由で教室から離れる(はなれる)ときに、
生徒に何か指示するときに使うような言葉です。
ここは掲示版なので、ちょっと不自然だと思います。
Simple errata:
「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書いてて」と（の？）=>「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書いてて」と
現在進行形のに変えたですね。=>現在進行形に変えました。
なんか、日本語と英語の考え方の違いを見たようで、思わず割り込んでしまいました。
「間違いがあってごめん」は、誰(だれ)かに間違いを指摘(してき)されたときに使うあやまりかたです。Elizabeth said:
その場合も、「間違っててごめん」と言ったほうが自然な日本語になります。
エリザベスさんが、最初(さいしょ)に投稿(とうこう)をしたときには、
誰も間違いを指摘しないので、
「投稿した文の中に間違いがあったらごめん」という意味で、
「間違いがあったらごめん」を使います。
はい、使えますElizabeth said:
チュータさんの文がまさにその例です。
この場合は、英語でいうと Good Job や Well done のような、
仕事をやりとげたときに使うことばになります。
わたしはチュータさんの文章を
Well done on a somewhat difficult theme.
と訳してみました。
また、「頑張って書いた」と書くと、これはチュータさんが使うことばではなく、
書いた本人のエリザベスさんが使うことばになります。
I did it とか、仕事をやりとげた時に使う言葉です。
I did my best writing on a somewhat difficult theme.
と訳してみました。
「頑張って書いてて」と進行形にすると、Elizabeth said:
「書く」動作をずっとつづけていなさいという感じになります。
例えば、学校の先生が、授業中に何かの理由で教室から離れる(はなれる)ときに、
生徒に何か指示するときに使うような言葉です。
ここは掲示版なので、ちょっと不自然だと思います。
そのほうがいいです。Elizabeth said:
Simple errata:
「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書いてて」と（の？）=>「難しいテーマの文を頑張って書いてて」と
現在進行形のに変えたですね。=>現在進行形に変えました。
soe
17sai no jousei
- 16 May 2004
- 12
- 0
MtoM said:
Atashi nara:
You are at the Advanced Beginner level.
You scored 70 points out of 150.
You scored 46% overall.
Report:
PART I: Grammar
You scored 23 points out of 45.
You scored 51% on this section.
PART II: Grammar
You scored 18 points out of 45.
You scored 40% on this section.
PART III: Vocabulary
You scored 19 points out of 30.
You scored 63% on this section.
PART IV: Reading Comprehension
You scored 10 points out of 30.
You scored 33% on this section.
WHAT?! Oh well
MtoM
先輩
- 7 Sep 2003
- 208
- 0
すげぇー．．．
私はもう一度やってみた。この結果が表示されていました。
You are at the Intermediate level.
You scored 104 points out of 150.
You scored 69% overall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART I: Grammar
You scored 43 points out of 45.
You scored 95% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART II: Grammar
You scored 23 points out of 45.
You scored 51% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART III: Vocabulary
You scored 25 points out of 30.
You scored 83% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART IV: Reading Comprehension
You scored 13 points out of 30.
You scored 43% on this section.
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
soeさんも もう一度やってみてください。
たぶん よくけっかが表示されますでしょう
そうですね．．．
ありがとうございます。
はい、それはそうです。よく言った。それはタイプのまちがいですよ。
また ありがとう
私はもう一度やってみた。この結果が表示されていました。
You are at the Intermediate level.
You scored 104 points out of 150.
You scored 69% overall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART I: Grammar
You scored 43 points out of 45.
You scored 95% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART II: Grammar
You scored 23 points out of 45.
You scored 51% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART III: Vocabulary
You scored 25 points out of 30.
You scored 83% on this section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART IV: Reading Comprehension
You scored 13 points out of 30.
You scored 43% on this section.
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
soeさんも もう一度やってみてください。
たぶん よくけっかが表示されますでしょう
Elizabeth said:
そうですね．．．
ありがとうございます。
Elizabeth said:そして「Soe」の前の「と」は多分typeの間違いですね。
はい、それはそうです。よく言った。それはタイプのまちがいですよ。
また ありがとう
Don't give up Ashiro. I'm in my sixth year studying and am still learning new things. The first year I was the same. I then found out there was a school trip to Japan in two years time from so I kept studying as only the top 10 from our school could go. I studied and studied. I finally got to go. It all had something to do with motivation. If you can find something that will motivate you about learning Japanese, use it to your advantage. You'll get there.
