Learning Japanese through Translation

[mdchachi]

Q1.: Even "originally" for 「もともと」because I would've thought that the past would be used in combination with 「もともと」.

I'd probably go with "inherently" in this sentence.

もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
もし もしもだ…
"Originally my predictions and the like
were wrong and then right.
If that's the case..."
But I'm sure that's wrong. A hint?

Use "inherently" instead of "originally."
"were" is definitely wrong. There's no past tense in here.
Your original translation of "obvious" makes more sense for 当たり前.
Not sure why you changed it to mean "it's right."
Sometimes it's easier to translate the fragments one part at a time.
For example "当たり前なのだ" means "it's obvious" or "it's commonplace."
Here's a fun example with this word:
当たり前のことをわざわざ言う人 = Captain Obvious e.g. Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Q2.: Why use two "ifs" in a row?: もし もしも
I'd translate that as "if that's the case" but both seem to essentially mean "if".

I'm not sure on this one since it's a incomplete thought.

 

[Zizka]

Look up explanations for how the existence verb works. ある・(では)ない

Well, I know 「ある」can either be an auxiliary verb as part of the ーて construction or just a main verb to indicate that something inanimate exists. It's negative form is 「ない」.

And then look up conjugation of adjectives.

There are な- adjectives and い-adjectives. Adjectives can either be prenominal (before the noun they modify) or used in conjunction with 「の」.
「な」adjectives conjugate like nouns (I think it's weird Tae Kim says "nouns" since it's です that's conjugated that way), using じゃない for the negative and 「だった」for the past.
「い」You can never use 「だ」with い-adjectives.

おいしい・おいしくない

おいしい is a い-adjective. To make the negative, you remove the い and then attach -くない:
おいしい
おいしくない: not delicious

And then look up how the adjective+そう pattern works

そう is used to express a quote: "likely outcome given the situation".
With 「おいしい」+ そう, I'd drop the 「い」to get: おいしそう.
When it comes to the negative, the 「い」must be replaced by 「さ」.
おいしくない therefore becomes おいしさそう. "doesn't look delicious".
*
Therefore 「なさそう」is the そう form of ある as in "doesn't seem to exist".

Kudos on the advice. I really like to do my own research when I'm pointed in the right direction.

 

[Zizka]

もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
もし もしもだ…
"Inherently my predictions and the like
are wrong and [then right, it's obvious/and then right, obviously].
If that's the case..."
If I have this wrong do refer me to certain concepts so I can make my own research, thank you.

 

[Zizka]

And another one:

わしが 先日の火事を
占いで予見し 止めたとしよう。
しかし それが なんになる？
*
わし：「代名詞」''I'' for elder men.
が：「助詞」subject particle
先日：「時相名詞」the other day
の：「助詞」noun connector
火事：「普通名詞」fire
を：「助詞」direct object
占い：「普通名詞」fortune-telling
予見：「普通名詞」foresight
し：「助詞」I think this is one case of citing in a list. Another possibility ''In a list, shows that the items or situations listed are the reasons or basis for another action of condition'' or even ''Lists two conflicting items or situations''.
止めた：「一段」inf. past. of 止める, ''to stop''
と「し」よう：not sure yet about this. I think the 「し」here might be part of the listing previously established.
しかし：「接続詞」''however''
それ：「普通名詞」''that''
が：「助詞」subject particle
なんに：「感動詞」''what''
なる：「五段」''to become''
*
I know this about his fortune telling preventing a fire. I'd like a hint about:
*と「し」よう
*the 「し」particle in case I'm wrong with my interpretation of it

 

[Zizka]

そのことが 次の災いのタネに
なるかもしれんのだ。
*
その：「連体詞」''that''
こと：「普通名詞」''incident''
が：「助詞」subject particle
次：「普通名詞」''next''
の：「助詞」noun connector
災い：「普通名詞」''disaster''
の：「助詞」noun connector
タネ：katakana transcription of たね (種), ''cause/source'' perhaps?
に：「助詞」
なる：「五段」''become''
かもしれん：[expression] "perhaps"
のだ：explanation
*
I'd like a hint about 「タネ」please.

 

[Zizka]

ルイネロさん 言ってる意味が
わからないよ。。。
"I don't understand what you're talking about."
*
ルイネロさん: name of the fortune teller
意味：「普通名詞」"meaning"
言ってる：「五段」colloquial ーて+いる form of 言う, "to say" to express the progressive.
が：「助詞」subject marker
わからない：「五段」negative of 「わかる」, "to understand"
よ：「助詞」exclamation

 

[Zizka]

もし火事がわかっていたら
少なくともマスター ライラスを
救えたのじゃないのかい？
*
もし：「副詞」"if"
火事: 「普通名詞」"fire"
が：「助詞」subject indicator
わかっていたら：「五段」action that was ongoing of 「わかる」, "to understand". I'm not too sure about this one. I mean, I got this from jisho so it's likely good but I'm uncertain about the actual construction. I'm thinking of 「わかる」ーて form + a past form of いる. It's the only logical explanation.
少なくとも：「副詞」"at least"
マスター ライラス: proper noun, "Master Lailas" or "Rairas"
を：「助詞」direct object particle
救えた: 「五段」inf. past of 「救う」, "to rescue"
たのじゃない：expression, expresses admiration, neg form. I'm doubting this one a lot. I'm thinking there's probably so colloquial form at play here which I'm not recognizing.
の：「助詞」Not sure here. Either "emotional emphasis" or nominalizer.
かい：「助詞」Inf. question particle, usually used by men.
*
I'd like some hints about both parts in red please.

 

[Toritoribe]

そう is used to express a quote: "likely outcome given the situation".

Those are two different meanings of そう. Check again what forms are attached to そう.
(Hint: In this post, your misreading あるそう is actually grammatical, but the meaning is completely different form ありそう.)

おいしくない therefore becomes おいしさそう. "doesn't look delicious".

おいしさそう is ungrammatical. You replaced さ not only with い, but with three hiragana.

Therefore 「なさそう」is the そう form of ある as in "doesn't seem to exist".

Yes, therefore なにも means "nothing" in なにもなさそう.

もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
もし もしもだ…
"Inherently my predictions and the like
are wrong and [then right, it's obvious/and then right, obviously].
If that's the case..."
If I have this wrong do refer me to certain concepts so I can make my own research, thank you.

など has a nuance of looking down on it; "things such like".

～て/で 当たり前 is a set. Check again.

Two "if"s are for emphasis, and this last line is connected to his next words. You say like below also in English, right?
If, if わしが先日の火事を…

You are doing too much at the same time. I don't recommend that way. I'll reply previous questions later.

 

[Zizka]

(Hint: In this post, your misreading あるそう is actually grammatical, but the meaning is completely different form ありそう.)

ありそう: [な adjective] "probable"

おいしさそう is ungrammatical. You replaced さ not only with い, but with three hiragana.

I'm doing this based on the information provided in Tae Kim's book:
1. おいしい is a い-形容詞.
2. The only meaning I can find in the book are: "likely outcome" or "hearsay" but that requires a だ with the ーそう.
3. "for all negatives, the 「い」must be replaced with 「さ」：
Ex.: これはなだの試合じゃなさそうだ。
So figured I'd remove the trailing 「い」and replace it with 「さ」: おいしさ- and then add the そう therefore: おいしさそう. "this is likely delicious".

～て/で 当たり前 is a set. Check again.

I don't understand this comment. The original sentence is:
もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
I can spot a て but no で (unless you mean て or で).
In any case, if it's a set, I'd need more of a hint because that's too vague for me.

Two "if"s are for emphasis, and this last line is connected to his next words. You say like below also in English, right?
If, if わしが先日の火事を…

Ok yes, I understand now.

 

[bentenmusume]

Q2.: Why use two "ifs" in a row?: もし もしも

It's just repetition for emphasis. We do the same thing in English, right?

If...if that's the case...!

Note that this translation isn't quite accurate because here, this expression leads into the following sentence.

(edit: Whoops, Toritoribeさん already explained this. My bad.)

Well, I know 「ある」can either be an auxiliary verb as part of the ーて construction or just a main verb to indicate that something inanimate exists. It's negative form is 「ない」.

It's the latter here, because it's simply Xがありそう.

Toritoribeさん and mdchachiさん tried to point you in the right direction, but I don't think you've been able to research the difference between あるそう（だね） and ありそう（だね）.

Maybe go back to the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and look up そう. There should be two entries, one for plain form + そう, and one for stem + そう.

Adjectives can either be prenominal (before the noun they modify) or used in conjunction with 「の」.

Not sure what you mean by "used in conjunction with の". Would you care to elaborate so we can tell if you understand this? Lots of things can be "used in conjunction with の" (and there are many different の's).

「な」adjectives conjugate like nouns (I think it's weird Tae Kim says "nouns" since it's です that's conjugated that way)

The copula だ／です is used to form predicates with nouns.

（私は）裕福です。 (I'm) wealthy.
（私は）裕福じゃないです。 (I'm) not wealthy.
（私は）学生です。 (I'm) a student.
（私は）学生じゃないです。 (I'm) not a student.

Perhaps that illustrates how な-adjectives (裕福） and nouns (学生） conjugate the same way?

そう is used to express a quote: "likely outcome given the situation".

Not sure what you mean by "quote" here. stem+そう (which, again, is different from plain form+そう) can mean "seems/looks" or "seems about to", but this doesn't really have anything to do with "quoting" anything. (If anything, plain form+そう is sort of a quote, or hearsay, but the two are completely different structures. Again, I suggest you research the difference so you don't get tripped up in the future.)

もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
もし もしもだ…
"Inherently my predictions and the like
are wrong and [then right, it's obvious/and then right, obviously].
If that's the case..."
If I have this wrong do refer me to certain concepts so I can make my own research, thank you.

Still not sure where you're getting "right" from.

"Wrong, then right" would be something like 当たらなくて、当たって（当たり前） (て form of the negative, て form of the positive, followed by 当たり前) (or 当たらなかったり、当たったりして当たり前, the "inexhaustive listing" たり form which you've seen before in 聞いたりする). This is just 当たらなくて (note: it's probably better to think of this as "the て form of the negative" rather than the "negative of the て form") connected to 当たり前.

Note also that even though 当たり前 uses one of the same kanji, it's not a form of the verb 当たる, but rather a single (and different) word in itself. (You're on the right track, at least, with "obvious".)

（占いが）当たらなくて困った
（占いが）当たってよかった
（占いが）当たらなくて当然だ

Here are some examples of the て-form of 当たる (both positive and negative) connected with different predicates. Care to give a shot at translating them?

3. "for all negatives, the 「い」must be replaced with 「さ」：
Ex.: これはなだの試合じゃなさそうだ。
So figured I'd remove the trailing 「い」and replace it with 「さ」: おいしさ- and then add the そう therefore: おいしさそう. "this is likely delicious".

試合じゃない→試合じゃなさそう is negative

おいしい is not negative.
You need to negate the い-adjective おいしい before conjugating it into the そう form.
(i.e. we're trying to say "this doesn't look delicious/tasty")

(edited for clarity)

 

[bentenmusume]

ありそう: [な adjective] "probable"
I can spot a て but no で (unless you mean て or で).
In any case, if it's a set, I'd need more of a hint because that's too vague for me.

Yes, this is what Toritoribeさん means. The て form can also take the form of で, depending on the verb (死ぬ→死んで) or if it's the copula (だ→で).

 

[Toritoribe]

ありそう: [な adjective] "probable"

That's from the meaning of the suffix ～そう, not just ありそう, i.e., "the -masu stem of ある + そう". All this そう works as a na-adjective.
e.g.
食べそうだ
行きそうだ
高そうだ
静かそうだ

"The dictionary form + そう" has completely different meaning, as I already pointed out.
e.g.
食べるそうだ
行くそうだ
高いそうだ
静かだそうだ

Incidentally, the latter そう is not a na-adjective, i.e., 高そうなカメラ is grammatical, but 高いそうなカメラ is not.

"for all negatives, the 「い」must be replaced with 「さ」

Are you saying おいしい is negative?
おいしさ indeed exists, but this is the noun form of おいしい. It can't be attached to そう.

I don't understand this comment. The original sentence is:
もともと 占いなど
当たらなくて 当たり前なのだ。
I can spot a て but no で (unless you mean て or で).
In any case, if it's a set, I'd need more of a hint because that's too vague for me.

Notice that "～" is put before て/で. This is used to show the -te form. You know て changes to で for some verbs or na-adjectives, right? (Actually, it includes "noun + で" here.)


This thread has already become too long, and is already messing up. If you just want to finish a game, it would be OK. However, you are going to learn Japanese through reading each sentence from beginner's level, so consequently, our explanations tend to be long. I strongly recommend making a new thread for each excerpt. Then, it works fine even if you post many excerpts at once.
We had a member using this way. He finished reading several volumes of Harry Potter series in this method.
いく筋 / 何てったって / 放っていちゃった / もン | Japan Forum
放たれん | Japan Forum
と / どうせだから / やらか / 焦れったさに | Japan Forum

EDIT:
Yeah, I, too, repeated what jt_-san already explained.:emoji_sweat_smile:

 

[bentenmusume]

EDIT:
Yeah, I, too, repeated what jt_-san already explained.:emoji_sweat_smile:

Great minds think alike (and post at the same hour of the day, I guess) :emoji_wink:

I'm glad Toritoribeさん brought up eekyさん (I always wonder what happened to him), as I always enjoyed responding to his posts, and actually considered citing and linking to him before as an example of the sort of structured questions that are well received on this board.

He asked numerous questions as he worked through Harry Potter in Japanese (which wouldn't be my first recommendation as learning material because it's a translation, but that's neither here nor there), but you could tell that he had a fairly sound foundation in the language, as he mostly asked focused questions about real-world usages of certain structures that varied or were not immediately recognizable as what he learned from his textbooks.

I agree with Toritoribeさん that he might be a good example to model yourself after.

 

[Toritoribe]

I wasn't misreading it, I was just copy/pasting my old message, I fixed the wrong transcription in a previous message.

I know you already got the correct reading ヌ, and you would copy and paste the old version without revising it, or without noticing that the misreading was not revised yet. I said "You are repeatedly using the misreading" in this meaning.

I feel like this is more peripheral to the language so I won't pursue this further with more questions at this point in time but it's still unclear to me.

Here's the explanation about modifying clause in Genki.

The short forms (= non-polite forms) of verbs can be used to qualify nouns, much like adjectives can. In the example below, the phrase あそこで本を読んでいる (reading a book over there) is used as a qualifier for the noun 学生.

あそこで本を読んでいる学生はみちこさんです。
The student who is reading a book there is Michiko.

Genki already explained how to make short forms, or how to use them (in casual conversations, in quotations, in making negative requests, etc.) in the previous chapter. (See, how they teach these grammatical concepts in the structured order.) Genki never mentions 連体形, or 終止形 either. They just shows that this "short form" can be used also in modifying clauses.
The same goes to Tae Kim's site. He says that it's similar to how i-adjectives modify nouns.

空が青い。
The sky is blue.

青い空
blue sky

学生があそこで本を読んでいる。
A student is reading a book there.

あそこで本を読んでいる学生
The student who is reading a book there.

And pointed out that "adjectives" in Japanese are actually "modifying clause" in the linguistic viewpoint, i.e., 青い空 is more likely "the sky that is blue" rather than "blue sky".

Of course I can't be 100% certain without context, but that's the first thing that came to mind and I'm fairly confident about it because 誠意を見せる is a common idiomatic phrase, whereas 勢威を見せる isn't so much.

I, too, think せいい would be 誠意. I've never heard the word 勢威.
Another interpretation that came to my mind was 聖衣, but this is not common, either, so this word can be possible only in a situation where 聖衣 was already mentioned previously.

This thread seems to be messing up, indeed.:emoji_sweat_smile:

 

[bentenmusume]

と「し」よう：not sure yet about this. I think the 「し」here might be part of the listing previously established.

I know this about his fortune telling preventing a fire. I'd like a hint about:
*と「し」よう
*the 「し」particle in case I'm wrong with my interpretation of it

I agree with Toritoribeさん that this thread is running off the rails a bit, but I just wanted to address this.

Neither of these are the "listing" particle し.
In 予見し, し is the masu-stem of する being used as a conjunctive form, with the same meaning as 予見して.
としよう is the volitional form of とする.

Toritoribeさん has alluded to this, but I agree that you should be focusing on understanding individual grammar points rather than just jumping from sentence to sentence as soon as you more or less get the gist of what's being said. The problem with this current approach is that no matter how hard we try to explain things, some of the most important details end up getting lost in the shuffle because you're trying to tackle advanced concepts and relatively basic/fundamental concepts at the same time.

A learner who has followed a structured course of study is unlikely to mistake the し of a conjugated form of する with the particle し, because their usages are completely different. I know you don't like it when people comment on your learning process, but it's hard not to, because the more this thread goes on, the more it's clear that our explanations aren't helping as much as they could if you had a proper basis in the language. It's like trying to build the roof of a house without laying down the proper foundation.

 

[Zizka]

I don't mind creating new threads, it makes no difference to me. I'll create a new one with the latest batch.

It's like trying to build the roof of a house without laying down the proper foundation.

As I've said repeatedly, I'll keep going this way regardless. I'd be nice if you kept bringing it up as I've clearly made my position clear about this. I've told you my position about through PM already twice plus many more times in this thread. I can understand once or twice, but when it's more than 5 times it gets a bit tedious if I'm being honest. I've already learned *a lot* from this thread and it's not up to anyone to decide if I've learned enough or quickly enough, that's up to me to decide. If you want to lobby against this method, then simply ignore my thread and leave me on my own.

I hope I'm being clear about this so it's not brought up again. I'd rather much rather not being helped than being strong armed into doing something I don't want to do.

 

[Toritoribe]

I've already learned *a lot* from this thread

And you need to realize that it forces us to do hard work as if writing a textbook. (Yes, we can show the articles in dictionaries or chapters in textbooks/on-line sites, and we really have been doing that, but you quite often failed to get the correct explanation from those sources, no?)

 

[bentenmusume]

Frankly, I find this most recent reply of yours quite rude.

Toritoribeさん and myself posted extensive, highly detailed and informative replies addressing countless questions of yours, and your response is to not even acknowledge them, but rather just to lecture me about how you don't want advice on how to learn the language.

For the last time, I am not trying to "strong-arm" you into doing anything. I am simply pointing out, based on objective observation of the type of questions you are asking, that there are things you could be doing in addition to trying to decipher video game dialogue, which is a perfectly good exercise that I myself have also used, to make the learning process easier on yourself.

it's more than 5 times it gets a bit tedious if I'm being honest

And it gets quite tedious for us to answer the same questions over and over again, because you stubbornly refuse to make the bare minimum effort to give yourself the necessary basis in the language to put our explanations into context and actually comprehend the big picture, rather than just getting a vague idea and jumping on to the next thing.

I think this is the last post I'll make in your threads, since it's clear at this point that don't understand or appreciate help or advice unless it's given to you in precisely the manner you dictate, without the slightest hint of disagreement or critique. I'm sorry, but that's not how life works.

Good luck in your studies.

(edited for further clarity)

 

[mdchachi]

Toritoribeさん has alluded to this, but I agree that you should be focusing on understanding individual grammar points rather than just jumping from sentence to sentence as soon as you more or less get the gist of what's being said. The problem with this current approach is that no matter how hard we try to explain things, some of the most important details end up getting lost in the shuffle because you're trying to tackle advanced concepts and relatively basic/fundamental concepts at the same time.

Well you realize that we're feeding into this by responding to this thread. If nobody had responded, he'd be long gone by now. His method only works (somewhat) because of all the effort put in to reply to each point.

As I've said repeatedly, I'll keep going this way regardless. I'd be nice if you kept bringing it up as I've clearly made my position clear about this.

I'm glad you agree that we should keep bringing it up. Every time you make a beginner mistake for something that is covered in Japanese 101, we will bring up how poor this method is. :emoji_laughing:

 

[mdchachi]

*Anyways, any suggestions on what I should read next? Preferably with Kanji this time so I can progress on that too.

How about this diatribe? At least it's real. Why American tourists expect Japanese to speak English without asking us if we speak English?

 

[Zizka]

Hey guys,
As I've studied in a more structured fashion, I want to admit I was wrong in approaching the language that way. You were right that it wasn't the most efficient method, I was being stubborn.
Thought I would admit it.