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Joyo kanji

Glenn

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It looks like this conversation can benefit from the definition of "far more". At least 500? Also "know". What does that mean? Familiar with? Can read in the most common word? Know all the readings? Probably not "can write it". That doesn't seem to matter to much anyone anymore.
 
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Nice joke there. average educated Japanese can't pass Kanken 2 even if their live defended on it.
Kanken 2 tests a large depth of knowledge on a particular set of kanji - writing ability, all manner of readings including ateji, etc.

Japanese college graduates can generally read some 4-5000 kanji in the words they are commonly used in. Passing a test on handwriting and obscure readings and so on for a fraction of those is almost completely orthogonal knowledge.

In this computer-driven age, people's ability to handwrite probably declines immediately after finishing high school, unless they have a particular interest in keeping it up as a hobby, either for kanken challenges or for calligraphy.

Also anyone who isn't a constitutional scholar probably soon after high school forgets all but the vaguest information about that set of characters that is only learned (or in Jouyou at all) in order to be able to read the constitution. They might be able to read the constitution still, but reading those characters in any other context or writing them at all, that might be another question altogether (but one that Kanken will ask).
 

FinancialWar

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Japanese college graduates can generally read some 4-5000 kanji in the words they are commonly used in.

Hey look, I can make bogus claims without evidence too.

Average Australian kangaroo can read 6000-8000 kanjis and

Academic standards on JREF is worse than average kindergarden class discussion.
 

Glenn

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Japanese college graduates can generally read some 4-5000 kanji in the words they are commonly used in.

Do you remember where you saw/heard that? That's more than I can recall hearing for college graduates, and is closer to what I've heard for educated adults (which I take to mean people in their late twenties who have some work experience).
 

FinancialWar

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Do you remember where you saw/heard that?

Really? You actually expect him to reference that claim with academically acceptable source? He probably busy googling and then link some forum post as his "reliable source".
 

Morphling

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Neither do they know " far more than the dinky 2000".

Are you sure you are not talking about yourself there? It's called projection in psychology and it's an insult to the average Japanese.

According to 漢字出現頻度数調査 from 文化庁, they did a survey of 385 books and found 8000 unique characters used. That's probably more than Chinese. So much for joyo. Of course the top 99% consists of 2457 characters, again more than joyo. In addition, 2 weeks worth of 読売新聞 uses 2602 characters.

Are you saying the typical Japanese can't even read their own newspapers? How insulting.
 

Glenn

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Really? You actually expect him to reference that claim with academically acceptable source? He probably busy googling and then link some forum post as his "reliable source".

I expect something. What number do you have? Where did you get it? I have no way of knowing where people get the numbers they use but to ask. I'll make a judgement from there.
 

Glenn

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According to 漢字出現頻度数調査 from 文化庁, they did a survey of 385 books and found 8000 unique characters used. That's probably more than Chinese. So much for joyo. Of course the top 99% consists of 2457 characters, again more than joyo. In addition, 2 weeks worth of 読売新聞 uses 2602 characters.

So 99% of the 8000 unique characters used in 385 books was 2457. What about the newspapers? Is that count also unique? Also, what kind of span did these books cover? I may have to just look this up for myself...
 

FinancialWar

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Are you sure you are not talking about yourself there? It's called projection in psychology and it's an insult to the average Japanese.

According to 漢字出現頻度数調査 from 文化庁, they did a survey of 385 books and found 8000 unique characters used. That's probably more than Chinese. So much for joyo. Of course the top 99% consists of 2457 characters, again more than joyo. In addition, 2 weeks worth of 読売新聞 uses 2602 characters.

Are you saying the typical Japanese can't even read their own newspapers? How insulting.

1. Where is the link to that survey? It is your burden to provide the link, not our job to search for the survey because there is a chance we might not be looking at the same survey.

2. A survey on 漢字出現頻度 in books and newspaper equals 日本人漢字知っている数 because it is otherwise an insult to assume otherwise?

So basically you don't have any evidence on how many kanji an (educated or not) Japanese person know. All you've got is the frequency of kanjis printed in books and newspaper.

Because 2602 numbers of kanji are printed in newspaper, and with the assumption that average Japanese person can read all kanjis that exists in various newspaper, otherwise it would be insult, therefore average Japanese person must know all the kanji that exist in newspaper.

And also since there are 8000 kanjis found in 385 books, (how is this information relevant if there is no assumption that average Japanese can read all the kanji in the 385 books?), somehow you think this can also backs up your claim.

So in conclusion, 2602 in newspaper, 8000 in books, assumption of Japanese ability to read everything printed in newspaper, you therefore come to a conclusion that average Japanese can read more than 2000 to some 4000-5000 kanji.

Am I getting your argument correctly?

So I have two questions

There are 2602 kanji in newspaper, does a person have to know all the 2602 to understand newspaper? Due to the law of diminishing return and kanji occur at different frequency, it would be a ridiculous to assume one need to know all the 2602 kanji to understand newspaper.

So assume average Japanese person can read know the 2602 kanjis in newspaper, how did you get from 2602 to 4000-5000?
 
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It's the kinds of numbers I hear over and over from native speakers and textbook writers and such people. I don't have a reliable source but if you google around it's generally estimated like this, some people go a thousand higher or lower. It's no mere 2000 anyway.

How many kanji characters does the average japanese person know? - Yahoo! Answers
日本人が知っている漢字の数は平均的にみるといくつぐ らいでしょう。書けるとは限... - Yahoo!知恵袋

It also simply stands to reason that there can't be so many thousands of kanji commonly printed in books that keep selling quite well if nobody can read them. I don't have a link handy, but digitized corpuses of fiction run up quite a few thousands of kanji. And have you counted the kanji in video games lately? Even basement dwelling slackers can read thousands upon thousands of kanji.

By 'college graduate' anyway I meant a person with any college degree at any stage in their life in a fairly general way.

FinancialWarさん、 your bogus claim (well, your bogus strong-implication) with no evidence is that the average college educated Japanese doesn't know how to read thousands of kanji simply because of your assumption that they can't pass the kanken 2kyuu 'if their life depended on it'. You don't need to add kangaroo nonsense to make unsubstantiated claims.

Personally, I think the average college educated Japanese knows quite enough that if you don't surprise them in the morning but instead give them a good few months to prepare before facing the firing squad, that they could cram the crucial readings and stroke orders for the crucial kanji, all of which they already have at least passing knowledge of.
 

Morphling

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So 99% of the 8000 unique characters used in 385 books was 2457. What about the newspapers? Is that count also unique? Also, what kind of span did these books cover? I may have to just look this up for myself...

I only have the summary. Since you are in Japan, you can get the full report from your local library. These are unique characters. 2602 unique characters across a random 2 week period of 読売新聞.

My point being Joyo is a baseline and that's it. It's the MINIMUM literacy rate, nothing to be proud of although certain members on this forum thinks it's the holy grail. Typical Japanese knows far more. My guesstimate would be around 3000.
 
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How does your brain function? Seriously? A survey on 漢字出現頻度 in books and newspaper is therefore 日本人漢字知っている数 because it is otherwise an insult to assume otherwise? what seriously.
Yeah, this wasn't an answer to me, but I can already see what's coming. You know what, I'm done with this thread.

Also, you haven't proved jack about your theory that the Japanese -can't- read their own books, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Where's your scientific survey that the average Japanese adult can't read a book?

Don't answer for me though, I won't be checking this thread again, but if you want to demand college-thesis quality evidence for an internet discussion then you should -provide- similar quality evidence before you start slinging insults.
 

Glenn

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Since you are in Japan, you can get the full report from your local library.

Does something here say I'm in Japan? I thought my profile was more up-to-date than that.

Morphling said:
These are unique characters. 2602 unique characters across a random 2 week period of 読売新聞.

That's surprising. I think I probably haven't read enough of the newspaper, although 読売 isn't one I've ever read with any regularity. Maybe I should spend two weeks reading it and see how many new ones I come across.

Morphling said:
My point being Joyo is a baseline and that's it. It's the MINIMUM literacy rate...Typical Japanese knows far more. My guesstimate would be around 3000.

This is actually what I'd assumed for a while, as I've heard it said quite a bit. Actually, I think either the 3500-4000 number is the one I've heard the most for educated adults, with highly educated adults (I guess Masters', Ph.D.'s, doctors and lawyers) knowing up in the area of 7000. I don't have any sources that would be considered authoritative on those, though.

For Chinese, I actually did come across an article that covered it:

Although there are around 85,000 entries listed in Zhonghua Zi Hai, according to the Chinese University of Hong Kong’s anthropology and cognition cross divisional comparative lab’s “Modern Chinese Character Frequency Statistics”, there are commonly 4600-4900 characters used in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Mainland China. The Common Use Characters Chart, compiled by the previous head of Hong Kong’s Education Ministry, contains 4759 characters, and elementary and middle school students should be able to recognize 3000-4500 characters.
…《中華字海》更達8.5萬個。根據中大人類認知跨科比較研究室的“現代漢語常用字頻率統計”,80至90年代兩岸三地常用漢字約有4600至4900個。香港前教育署編制的《常用字字形表》則收字共4759個,綜觀中小學生所識的漢字約應有3000至4500個。

The translation is mine. The original article is here:
網站評選“最難漢字” 部分字專家也不識
 

Morphling

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The joyo equivalent in Chinese is 現代漢語常用字表. It has 2500 characters. There is an extended list 次常用字表 of another 1000. You will get less mileage than in Japanese since you can't cheat with kana so you'll need to know both lists to be any good.

That said , it's 音読み in 北京語 only, no 当て字, no multiple readings from different eras of China, no 訓読み so it's much less nasty than Japanese's 2000.
 

FinancialWar

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Also, you haven't proved jack about your theory that the Japanese -can't- read their own books, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Where's your scientific survey that the average Japanese adult can't read a book?

Learn to read the thread, there was never a debate about Japanese being able to read Japanese books or not, it was about knowing the amount of claim kanji. One does not need to know all the vocabulary to read a book.

Don't answer for me though, I won't be checking this thread again, but if you want to demand college-thesis quality evidence for an internet discussion then you should -provide- similar quality evidence before you start slinging insults.

I never made any claims in this thread, so why do I need to provide evidence? The only thing I claimed was

"average educated Japanese can't pass Kanken 2 even if their live defended on it". And I can readily tell you that the pass rate for Kanken 2 is only 23%.

My guesstimate would be around 3000.

So wait, you went from a fact of 4-5000 to a personal guess of 3000 after a bid of research?



ahaha I'm so done with this. This thread can be summerised as


I think this, you guess that.

Yahoo Answer is my source

and assumption without stat.
 

Glenn

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I wonder if they added the 次常用字表 because the 2500 "wouldn't get you across town," as I heard it put once. At any rate, 2500 is also less than necessary and used by most of society in China (possibly even the 3500), which is similar to what I've heard about the situation in Japan.

Side note, there are 破音字 and 多音字, so it's not as straightforward as most people seem to think. For instance, 為 can be read wei2 or wei4, depending on function. 數 is shu4 when it means "number", but shu3 when it means "count". 單, when it's a surname, is Shan4, but dan1 otherwise, and then there are characters like 調, which is either tiao2 or diao4 (and which I never seem to be able to get right).

That being said, yes, it is still much less nasty than the situation in Japanese. Aside from 音読み and 訓読み, there are multiples of both of them sometimes, like with 生. I almost feel like if anyone can list all of that character's readings from memory, they should be given $100.
 

Morphling

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I never made any claims in this thread, so why do I need to provide evidence?

Neither do they know " far more than the dinky 2000".

Back peddling much. All I'm saying is 2602 characters were used in Yomiuri over a 2 week period backed up by research from 文化庁. You'd think the average Japanese would know more than 2000 otherwise they can't read their own newspaper without a dictionary every single day.

You don't need to pass 漢検 but you do need to know more characters than 漢検2 to read a newspaper or a novel. A fact you can't accept for some bizarre reason.

Chris pointed out your lack of understanding of 漢検. 漢検2 go for depth rather than breadth and all you do is insult people. To say Japanese can't pass 漢検2 therefore they know less than 2000 is laughable.

You don't need to use 表外漢字 to make a question that is hard. E.g. 次の文に返り点を付けろ。
不為子孫買美田。

The typical educated Japanese high schooler hoping to get in a good university NEEDS to know how to do this.

Can't do it? The you must not know the characters that a JLPT 2 learner knows. Forget about passing 漢検. Do you see the flaw in the logic.
 
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FinancialWar

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You'd think the average Japanese would know more than 2000 otherwise they can't read their own newspaper without a dictionary every single day.

As I said before, law the of diminishing return and frequency ensure that you need to know all the kanji. The rule work like this.

If you learn first 1000 most frequent kanji, you will be able to read say 85%, you learn the next 1000 most frequent kanji, you'll will be able to read 95%, the benefit gets smaller and smaller, while the cost of learning and maintaining is the same (or higher in the case of vocabulary acquisition).

By knowing just 2000 kanji, one can read and understand newspaper with even say 5000 different kanji just fine as the frequency of other 3000 kanji only occur a few % of the time.

I don't get why this concept is so hard for you to understand. Do you need to memorise a dictionary to read English novels? What happens when you encounter a word you don't understand, you conjecture it's meaning from context and continue reading.

Chris pointed out your lack of understanding of 漢検. 漢検2 go for depth rather than breadth and all you do is insult people. To say Japanese can't pass 漢検2 therefore they know less than 2000 is laughable.

First kanken 2 is a test that cover 2136 joyo kanjis, get your facts straight (oh, wait get facts straight is not your strength, making up facts is).

Again, twisting facts like you usually do. Did I ever say that Japanese know less than 2000? I disputed your statement that Japanese know far more than 2000 (and later statement about them knowing 4-5000) does not equal saying that the know less than 2000.

For example Japanese knowing 2136 kanji does not equal "knowing for more than the dinky 2000".

Number is a numerical variable and in this case, a ratio scale, not categorical variable. If there are only two categorical variable, then your logic would work, is someone is not male, then they must be female.

Christ didn't point out ****.


You don't need to use 表外漢字 to make a question that is hard. E.g. 次の文に返り点を付けろ。
不為子孫買美田。

The typical educated Japanese high schooler hoping to get in a good university NEEDS to know how to do this.

Can't do it? The you must not know the characters that a JLPT 2 learner knows. Forget about passing 漢検. Do you see the flaw in the logic.

Keeping on BSh1ting.

I do kanken 2 and pre 1 tests everyday, there is no 次の文に返り点を付けろ in Kanken tests. If there is ever going to be a non-Japanese living in the western world passing Kanken 2, it's going to be me.

You're the one with logical flaws, you just don't see it, you make causation out of nothing. You reject null hypothesis without statistical confidence, you say guilt with reasonable doubt.
 

Morphling

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I do kanken 2 and pre 1 tests everyday, there is no 次の文に返り点を付けろ in Kanken tests. If there is every going to be a non-Japanese living in the western world passing Kanken 2, it's going to be me.

Geez did we hurt your ego much there. Japanese don't need to pass 漢検. They need to pass センター試験・国語 which does ask those sort of questions. Why don't you ace that before you insult the average Japanese.
 

FinancialWar

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Geez did we hurt your ego much there. Japanese don't need to pass 漢検. They need to pass センター試験・国語 which does ask those sort of questions. Why don't you ace that before you insult the average Japanese.

I have no intention to go to a Japanese university.

How exactly did I insult Japanese people? Most Japanese can't pass Kanken 2 constitute an insult in your book? Do I have to twist the facts so that it does not come out as an insult?

Lets look at the what the facts before you twist it.


1. Kanken 2 exam one's ability to use 2136 joyo kanji

2. Passing rate for Kanken 2 is 23%.

3. Only dedicated and educated people even bother to take Kanken 2.

4. We can safely say that only a small % of Japanese have the ability to pass Kanken 2 which test one's ability to use 2136 joyo kanji.

These are indisputable facts.

So my conclusion is that most Japanese do not have the full working knowledge of even the 2136 joyo kanjis lists, let alone knowing 4-5000 which was your claim as a fact since which you reduced to 3000 as a guess.

And my operational definition of the action "knowing a kanji" is reading, writing, understanding the meaning and full utilization in everyday life, which is what kanken test on.

Merely seeing the kanji in newspaper and conjecturing it's meaning does not constitution "knowing" a kanji, as they don't have the KNOWledge to know.
 

Morphling

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Neither do they know " far more than the dinky 2000".

They probably know more than you lol.

Yes 漢検 is really one giant vocab test. Good 豆知識 but not essential. If you pass it, congrats. It is not 国語 test, it doesn't test 文法、読解、作文、古文、漢文 etc all the rest of the stuff that is essential for passing センター試験, the stuff that really matters to the average Japanese high schooler.

As a bonus, 漢検2 restrict itself to the joyo list so it will miss patches as basic as 醤油 but grill you on 蝉時雨. All makes sense.
 

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I'd like to remind all participants in this discussion to stay civil and on topic and refrain from personal attacks. We'll not hesitate to close this thread in case the immature bickering goes on. Thank you.
 

Morphling

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fail.

蝉 is not a 常用 nor 人名用 not in kanken 2 or pre 1 but 醤油 is.

What's with you and false facts?

Lol okay you got me, really? Which idiots make these lists. I'm glad you know the difference between Joyo, JIS準一 and JIS一級 but really how useful is that?

For me and my advice to the rest of the Japanese learners is just learn what you find useful and despite Japanese people not very good at passing 漢検, they definitely know 蝉 when they see one regardless of the fact its stuck in 漢検1. 正直に言うと、あんまり役に立たないもんだと思うけど、自己研鑽ならまだしも。

If you REALLY love Kanji that much, I think you should step it up one notch, why stop at vocab when you can start reading Chinese classics. There is a Japanese exam series for that, 漢文検定. The other 漢検. That probably has a pass rate of 0% lol.

http://www.kanshin.gr.jp/about.html
 

FinancialWar

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If you REALLY love Kanji that much, I think you should step it up one notch, why stop at vocab when you can start reading Chinese classics. There is a Japanese exam series for that, 漢文検定. The other 漢検. That probably has a pass rate of 0% lol.

漢文検定概要|一般社団法人 漢字文化振興協会

Nice find, I don't think there is a test centre in Australia is there? Anyways, JLPT N1 and KK 2 are the two high qualification I wish to get for Japanese, the opportunity cost is already too high for learning a language. There are many other qualification I wish pursue that offers more prestige and employment opportunity such as HSK, CFA, FIAA, ICAA, MFin, MBA. Don't think a PhD level kanji is at the top of my priority list.
 
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