Japanese Royal Tomb Opened to Scholars for First Time
- Thread starter Tokis-Phoenix
- Start date
And about horses:
This is because of according to Shamanistic beliefs that the buried would go to spiritual world riding a horse with all his equipments and accessories. You said "Horse sacrifice is actually a bit debated, as Kidder wonders why the Japanese would sacrifice the few horses that lived on the islands during the first years of the Kofun period". "The use of horse haniwa around kofun seems to imply that the Japanese believed that horses were mediums or intouch with the spiritual world. 8th century rituals involving horse figures attest to this."
This is because of according to Shamanistic beliefs that the buried would go to spiritual world riding a horse with all his equipments and accessories. You said "Horse sacrifice is actually a bit debated, as Kidder wonders why the Japanese would sacrifice the few horses that lived on the islands during the first years of the Kofun period". "The use of horse haniwa around kofun seems to imply that the Japanese believed that horses were mediums or intouch with the spiritual world. 8th century rituals involving horse figures attest to this."
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
I was waiting for you to bring up amateur historian Wontack Hong and Jared Diamond
* caster51 ... Dongyi-Zhuan = 東夷伝 Eastern Barbarian Chronicle
It seems you call amateurs those who present evidences that other renown historians attest. By your posts you seem to emphisize qinese influence while try to conceal any Korean role on the Japanese islands. Are you qinese? I'm talking to someone who claims know more than a professor and an expert.
BTW, I'm tired of looking up the sources only to answer to your comments. All the necessary evidences are presented. Good luck in finding the truth.
BTW, I'm tired of looking up the sources only to answer to your comments. All the necessary evidences are presented. Good luck in finding the truth.
tokapi, please kindly tell Adulado about the Egami's theory on the horse-riding conqueror had already been rejected a long time before. If my memory serves right, you posted it somewhere here.
It is interesting and romantic, but the imaginary horse-riding conqueror as Adulado believes should have taught Japanese more about horse breeding technique...
It is interesting and romantic, but the imaginary horse-riding conqueror as Adulado believes should have taught Japanese more about horse breeding technique...
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
Give credit where credit is due,Lelang Commandary's Han-Chinese culture laid the foundation to both peninsula and Japan civilizations.
Overwhelming evidence of Chinese influence in the peninsula during Han Dynasty is indisputable,it seems in international academic circles that the Han cultural-sphere is universally accepted.
Surnames, such as Hong ( 洪 ), Wang ( 王 ) and Han ( 韓 ), were originally Chinese settlers from Lelang and highlight one of the rare occassions where Chinese people got completely assimilated by natives over time.
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Lol, no, I wouldn't go as far as saying "laid down" the foundation of civilization since small tribes states were formed after the fall of Gojoseon and before that there was Baedal and even then Koguryo, Baekje and Shilla was formed without the influence of the Lelang Commandery, noting that Korea already entered in the Iron Age and rice cultivation so civilization was already there. I didn't studied the issue in depth so I can't give a clear explanation about it so I'll give you some links here.
www(dot)allempires(dot)net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15896
www(dot)asiafinest(dot)com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t106509.html
But it's true Baekje, Koguryo and Shilla retained their own culture that is Scytho-Siberian. Those artifacts found in Japan were Scytho Syberian and not han-qinese style artifacts.
The intention of these commanderies was to prevent unity of these small tribes into forming a bigger state thus a bigger threat.
www(dot)allempires(dot)net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15896
www(dot)asiafinest(dot)com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t106509.html
But it's true Baekje, Koguryo and Shilla retained their own culture that is Scytho-Siberian. Those artifacts found in Japan were Scytho Syberian and not han-qinese style artifacts.
The intention of these commanderies was to prevent unity of these small tribes into forming a bigger state thus a bigger threat.
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tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
Historians note that despite the catalog of cultural benefits Japan reaped from its links with China and from the peninsula, many Japanese intellectuals started to look down on their Asian neighbors in the late 19th century, in line with an emerging nationalist fervor in Japan.
Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.
"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."
In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.
The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.
During its relatively fallow periods in terms of global influence, however, the country has generally sought to protect its identity by emphasizing its "unique" heritage, he said.
One of Japan's foremost nationalists, Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara, wrote in 1968, for example, that Japan was effectively a homogenous country that had maintained an "absolutely original culture" for centuries.
In Ishihara's 1994 book "No-to-ieru Asia" ("Asia that can say no"), however, he described the perception of Japan as an ethnically homogeneous country as absurd, stating that Japan is a mixture of "all the ethnic groups in Asia."
Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.
"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."
In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.
The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.
During its relatively fallow periods in terms of global influence, however, the country has generally sought to protect its identity by emphasizing its "unique" heritage, he said.
One of Japan's foremost nationalists, Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara, wrote in 1968, for example, that Japan was effectively a homogenous country that had maintained an "absolutely original culture" for centuries.
In Ishihara's 1994 book "No-to-ieru Asia" ("Asia that can say no"), however, he described the perception of Japan as an ethnically homogeneous country as absurd, stating that Japan is a mixture of "all the ethnic groups in Asia."
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
.....
.....What next .... Sumerian-origin
* click below google link for more reads
Koreans are Sumerian - Google Search
Horserider Theory,first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. Thus they conquered not the Jomon but the Yayoi people, and are not the ancestors of modern Japanese.But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.
* here is direct link to CHF's discussion on Lelang Commanderies
China History Forum
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
Eiji Oguma's online copy of " A Genealogy of 'Japanese' Self-images ",English-translation of his award-winning 1995 book titled Tan'itsu Minzoku Shinwa no Kigen ( The origin of the myth of Japanese as a homogeneous ethnic group or The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation ).
A Genealogy of 'Japanese' Self-images
A Genealogy of 'Japanese' Self-images
Never said Koreans are Sumerians. I know you'll try to find any accusation so that this discussion will never end. I won't be searching sources only to reply to your comments. And never said Japanese were Koreans, Japan is Japan, Korea is Korea and wasn't preaching Korea-Japan unity, I was only stating historical facts, and that was it. It requires a little of common sense to understand all this but you seem to defy it. lol
Why you keep showing me things I and most Koreans know nothing about?
You expect me to read all this? lmao
Why keep showing links where there's no elaborate discussion?
Why you keep showing me things I and most Koreans know nothing about?
You expect me to read all this? lmao
Why keep showing links where there's no elaborate discussion?
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
... Huh ... :?
Himiko 卑彌呼 ( 178 A.D. to 248 A.D. approximate dates ) died,Japan fell into disarray and lost contact with China.Therefore,the Chinese court was not able to record Japan's history afterward,until they resumed their relationship in Yamato period.
There are no Chinese records on Japan from 266-413.Thanks to Chinese not distort history as no phony chronicle entry for this time frame,but now opens to wild speculations & imaginations of what really happened on Japonic islands
I haven't read any research material or book could " reconstruct " events accured for this period based on credible expertise archaeological works.
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
The truth is Yamato is derivative of Yamatai ( 邪馬台 kingdom of shaman regnant Himiko ),those tribal natives were Wa-jins ( 倭人: Japanese ).Hence,the origin of Yamato.
魏志倭人伝 ( Gishi-Wajin-Den ),a Chinese text of 1988 words described tribal nations of Japonic islands.Also documented diplomatic dealings with Queen Himiko.
魏志倭人伝 - Wikipedia
Both Kojiki & Nihongi ( compiled in 8th century ) noted a migration wave of Baekje people during early Yamato ( especiallly Kofun 古墳時代 ) period,included Han-Chinese descent ( 王仁 ) Wani's arrival in 405.
Yamato period - Wikipedia
In restropective,Yamato population indeed had a percentage of K-peninsular ancestry.
Regarding Baekje,the kingdom was established on Puyo tribe's conquest of ( 馬韓 ) Mahan and later consolidated ( 帶方郡 ) Daifang Commandery southern territory ( when China's Han-Dynasty collapsed ).This means Baekje had a " mixed " population of Puyo from present day China's Jilin province,indigenous Mahan folks,and remnant Han-Chinese of Daifang Commandery.So,any talk of Baekje people flooded Japonic islands should also include the " Han-Chinese
".
帶方郡 ( 1 of 4 Chinese colonial outposts in the peninsula )
Daifang Commandery - Wikipedia
帯方郡 - Wikipedia
魏志倭人伝 ( Gishi-Wajin-Den ),a Chinese text of 1988 words described tribal nations of Japonic islands.Also documented diplomatic dealings with Queen Himiko.
魏志倭人伝 - Wikipedia
Both Kojiki & Nihongi ( compiled in 8th century ) noted a migration wave of Baekje people during early Yamato ( especiallly Kofun 古墳時代 ) period,included Han-Chinese descent ( 王仁 ) Wani's arrival in 405.
Yamato period - Wikipedia
In restropective,Yamato population indeed had a percentage of K-peninsular ancestry.
Regarding Baekje,the kingdom was established on Puyo tribe's conquest of ( 馬韓 ) Mahan and later consolidated ( 帶方郡 ) Daifang Commandery southern territory ( when China's Han-Dynasty collapsed ).This means Baekje had a " mixed " population of Puyo from present day China's Jilin province,indigenous Mahan folks,and remnant Han-Chinese of Daifang Commandery.So,any talk of Baekje people flooded Japonic islands should also include the " Han-Chinese
".帶方郡 ( 1 of 4 Chinese colonial outposts in the peninsula )
Daifang Commandery - Wikipedia
帯方郡 - Wikipedia
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
caster51 ... you're partly correct
It was in 4th century,Wa's Yamato Court subjugated Byeonhan 弁韓 ( weakest of Sam-han statelets in southern peninsula,that place was source of iron production for Wa of Japan ) to status of semi-colony ( or protectorate ).Japanese re-named it 任那 ( J:Mimana,K:Kaya or Gaya ).
* 弱小的弁韓被「倭」的大和朝廷殖民地化.稱為任那.
As 2 closest neighboring nations,it's naturally there have always been periods of strong bi-lateral relationships and war conflicts over territory.
I do believe those tribal Wa-jins ( exclude Austronesian-stock Hayato & Kumaso of Kyushu ) and ancient K-peninsula clans ( exclude people of Han-Chinese origin ) " branched out " from numerous Mongoloid NE Asiatic nomadic tribes of Siberia Mongolia plains old Manchuria ( China's NE region ).
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
Really .... ☝
Japan's royal sacred mirror 八咫鏡 【やたのかがみ】 Yata no Kagami ( the eight-span mirror; one of the Imperial regalia ),its origin was Chinese water-reflection mirror ( also called 鑒 ).
Chinese: 八咫鏡起源於中國的水鏡，又稱『鑒』
Japanese: 8咫鏡は中国の水鏡に起源します.
Yata no Kagami - Wikipedia
銅鏡 ( BRONZE MIRROR )
a Japanese wiki-link thoroughly explains imported Han-Chinese style bronze mirrors excavated from Yayoi archaeological site & Kofun tombs.There were also made-in-Japan replicas.
銅鏡 - Wikipedia
Some of the earliest examples of Chinese bronze mirrors belonged to the Neolithic Qijia culture from around 2000 BCE. However, until Warring States times, bronze mirrors were not common with approximately only 20 having been discovered. During the Warring States period, mirrors became particularly popular. It was during the Han Dynasty, and the introduction of the TLV mirror, that mirrors started to be mass-produced. Both Han and Tang mirrors are considered to be the most technically advanced.
Source: Bronze mirror - Wikipedia
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
Not according to Gwanggaeto Stele's inscription ...
Gwanggaeto Stele - Wikipedia
ﾂ「ﾅｽﾂｧﾋ彖ﾋ?按辛窶ｰK窶扼ﾋ愿停?從ﾅ?C窶挧窶｢Sﾅｸkﾂ，ﾂ??ﾂ??ﾂ新窶披?ｦﾋ?依?猟臣窶督ｯﾂ。ﾂ」
Chinese: 窶昶?｡窶冓ﾋ彙ﾅｽ窶版津?ｽwﾂ出ﾋ彖ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶禄擊窶挧窶｢Sﾃ?Zﾂ，窶｢ﾃ?ﾅｽg窶戮窶愿淞新窶披?ｦ窶｢ﾅｾ窶ｺﾂ｢
English: Wa of Japan actually defeated Baekje .
The 2 indecipherable or illegible words ( kanji ) denoted by " ﾂ??ﾂ?? " could've been 窶戮窶愿 ( J: Mamana,K:Kaya or Gaya ) which became a Japanese domain in the peninsula.
* 好太王碑 - 維基百科，自由的百科全書
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
The legend of Empress Jingu's conquest of southern K-peninsula ( Empress Jingu is said to have reigned in the 3rd century,while the Sinmyo passage falls along the lines of the 5th century ) has been rejected by most historians today as a myth inserted into the otherwise highly detailed Nihon Shoki as a way to fill in the time gap between the reigns of early Japanese emperors.
Both Seven-branched Sword & Gwanggaeto Stele are authentic historical artifacts discovered in late 19th century,it was at that time Japan Empire tried to assert its domination over the peninsula.
I now suspect some imperialistic Japanese historian(s) " falsified " those entries in Nihon Shoki,linked a legendary empress to factual Japanese military expeditions over there.It's like saying to them in a condescending way " hey,we had a female sovereign kicked your asses back then
". Seven-Branched Sword - Wikipedia
it is said Kaya(gathering of small countries, Busan is included LOL)was located in southern part of korean peninsula..
kudara was appeared in 4th century in the chinese document.
魏志』東夷伝の辰韓の条には、
國出鐵，韓、濊、倭皆從取之。諸巿買皆用鐵，如中國用錢，又以供給二郡。俗喜歌舞飲酒
404页面
according to Book of Wei and Book of the Later Han, Wa scrambled for iron in kaya( three han were before kudara
Book of the Later Han - Wikipedia
Book of Wei - Wikipedia
according to Five kings of Wa in Book of Song,使持節都督・百済・新羅・任那・秦韓・慕韓六国諸軍事安東太将軍倭国王( I think kings of wa were Commanders)
every documet are almost same...
anyway. thay is why kaya is not an authentic korean history...
american textbook about korean history
Original one
Japan should insist Kaya was Japanese history.
Give credit where credit is due???? If the Japanese were so influenced by Chinese or birthed by China, they should be speaking a tonal language as all Chinese languages are tonal. Japanese should honestly feel lucky that their language is not a Chinese language. Chinese is one of the ugliest languages in the world.
The only way chinese can claim any kind of connection to Japanese is to go through Korea---not any independent claim by itself. Pathetic.
Ultimately, a search on origins should include studies about on linguistics, genetics and archeology. While Korean connection is verified and supported by all three of these studies by the international community, a Chinese connection is flimsy and can hardly pass any test or academic rigor.
I'm surprised that both caster51 and topaki have not been banned for making this forum a laughing stock with their ridiculous theory and general paranoia.
Castor's insistence that Korea had once been "conquered" by Wa is itself an excuse to explain why there are so many archaeological artifacts in Japan which have origins from Korea, yet another supporting fact of Korea's influence upon Japan.
I recommend the book: Korean Impact on Japanese Culture: Japan's Hidden History by Jon and Alan Covell.
The only way chinese can claim any kind of connection to Japanese is to go through Korea---not any independent claim by itself. Pathetic.
Ultimately, a search on origins should include studies about on linguistics, genetics and archeology. While Korean connection is verified and supported by all three of these studies by the international community, a Chinese connection is flimsy and can hardly pass any test or academic rigor.
I'm surprised that both caster51 and topaki have not been banned for making this forum a laughing stock with their ridiculous theory and general paranoia.
Castor's insistence that Korea had once been "conquered" by Wa is itself an excuse to explain why there are so many archaeological artifacts in Japan which have origins from Korea, yet another supporting fact of Korea's influence upon Japan.
I recommend the book: Korean Impact on Japanese Culture: Japan's Hidden History by Jon and Alan Covell.
tokapi
後輩
- 8 Sep 2007
- 850
- 5
On'yomi ( hiragana おんよみ )
音読み, 音読: A Japanese reading ( yomi ) of a kanji character based on the original Chinese pronunciation.
* on'yomi - Wiktionary
Although the Korean and Chinese languages are not related in terms of grammatical structure, more than 50 percent of all Korean vocabulary is derived from Chinese loanwords, a reflection of the cultural dominance of China over 2 millennia.
音読み, 音読: A Japanese reading ( yomi ) of a kanji character based on the original Chinese pronunciation.
* on'yomi - Wiktionary
Although the Korean and Chinese languages are not related in terms of grammatical structure, more than 50 percent of all Korean vocabulary is derived from Chinese loanwords, a reflection of the cultural dominance of China over 2 millennia.
Neither Korean nor Japanese belong in the same language group as Chinese---and both retain more altaic influences--as noted by the pronunciation/grammatical/vocubulary differences over superficial Chinese influences on vocabulary. The altaic influences are moreover captured by cultural influences such as shamanism/shintoism. The Chinese sure like to live in the past. I doubt modern Koreans or Japanese give two thoughts the Chinese, as they like think we do. Koreans/Japanese are too busy embracing modern western culture rather than giving a single thought to something that happened thousands of years ago, while the Chinese cling to it.
If the Chinese want to "claim" Japan that is fine. Do it on your own merits. But why bring Korea into it?
Actually, Japanese and Korean both have about 50% loan words from China. That alone attests to the fact Korea and Japanese are very similar langages with the similar attributes.
If the Chinese want to "claim" Japan that is fine. Do it on your own merits. But why bring Korea into it?
Actually, Japanese and Korean both have about 50% loan words from China. That alone attests to the fact Korea and Japanese are very similar langages with the similar attributes.
What's the matter? The truth too difficult for you to handle? You're asking for mod's help, when you yourself are breaking the rules.
Why are you still posting on Korea-related topics, when you've been warned not to?
