Japan is actually a very pride, 'authentic' nation, isn't it?

irishlight42 · 19 May 2006

yukio_michael said:
Where are you getting this information? What is your source on the morals of the United States being in a decline? Also, are you implying that Japanese morals and code of ethics are somehow superior?
This is so off base I don't even know where to begin.

No, sorry about all that, didn't mean to make such implications at all. I think perhaps people are a bit blinded to what's really important sometimes in the U.S., but then I suppose that occurs in a lot of countries.

Meiki · 20 May 2006

Wow, my profile is really screwed up . On another board my nationaility is Nigerian . I like to mess with people's head . Okay, I'm sorry for the confusion, but I've never understood the meaning of a profile, you can make up things as much as you want and people would believe it. Kekeke, me Chinese....

Meiki · 20 May 2006

Oh, and I don't mean to bash Belgium or make fun of it's authencity in any way. It's just that you, Maciamo, implied that Japan has ripped of from China and is not original at all. Yeah, a lot of things that are considered very Japanese now did not originate in Japan.
But hey, a lot of things that are considered to be very Belgian or Belgian people think it's a very Belgian did not originate in Belgium at all.
I would be insulted if someone said Holland was not original at all and only copied things from other countries, from fashion to tv. But hey, we live in a global community, right? So, it's only normal to take things over easily. That's what internationalisation is about.
I guess, maybe it's all a matter of taking things over and make an own version of it and then see which one is the most interesting one, instead of copying.
Instead of Belgium or Japan you can insert every country you want to.
But the truth is this whole site is about Japan, so there must be things that Japan has their own interesting version of, more interesting or attractive than other countries, which makes people interested in Japan.

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

Mikawa Ossan said:
If s/he was born and raised in the Netherlands with Dutch citizenship, that sounds like 100% Dutch to me, regardless of his/her racial makeup.

That's not the way most people understand it in Europe. To give you a more local example, to be considered as a Roman by local Romans, even if you are "pure Italian", your family needs to have been established in Rome for at least 7 generations.

I suppose the expressive "native Dutch" or even better "stock Dutch" would be better to describe someone with "pure" Dutch ancestry. Personally, "pure" would mean something like 100% of one's ancestors have lived in the country for at least 300 years. Most Europeans have (or could have, given a bit of research) a genealogical tree going back to several centuries. Local archives in Belgium have everyone's birth, marriage and death certificate since the 17th or 18th century, and up to the 11th century if you have ancestors in the nobility. So it's easy to check how "pure" somebody is. I guess this mindset that doesn't help with integrating immigrants though...

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

Meiki said:
Oh, and I don't mean to bash Belgium or make fun of it's authencity in any way. It's just that you, Maciamo, implied that Japan has ripped of from China and is not original at all. Yeah, a lot of things that are considered very Japanese now did not originate in Japan.
But hey, a lot of things that are considered to be very Belgian or Belgian people think it's a very Belgian did not originate in Belgium at all.
I would be insulted if someone said Holland was not original at all and only copied things from other countries, from fashion to tv. But hey, we live in a global community, right? So, it's only normal to take things over easily. That's what internationalisation is about.

My point about Japan getting most of its traditional culture from China is the same as the one about Belgium getting most of its heritage from the Romans, French, etc. I see Belgium as part and parcel of a common European civilisation. Its culture and history is intertwined with that of neighbouring countries and indeed most of Europe. Nobody denies that. However, when somebody says that Japan or Korea are part of the Chinese civilisation, as they got most of their cultural heritage from it, East Asian people get offended. Yet it is not really different from Europe's case. Europe has never been one unified country in history, and so is it for China, Korea and Japan. But all European countries belong to the European civilisation, with a common heritage, and so do Japan, Korea and China.

Meiki · 20 May 2006

Erm, sorry but aren't Roman and Greek civilisation totally different and far ''ancient'' (not saying superior) than Scandinavian culture?
But Greek and Roman civilisation have had the upperhand in influencing other countries, like the alphabet and such.
And didn't Greeks had contact with other civilisations besides Rome? I think most civilisations aren't pure.
I don't really see a European civilisation. A civilisation is something ''ancient'' to me. So, that would be Rome, Greece, Egypt, China, India. Maybe not even Rome, as it was a baby-civilisation compared to the others.
And other places lagged behind, but definitely not inferior.
I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.

Anyway OT again, you know that world's famous beer is Heineken, right? It's Dutch . We love to have a fresh beer after work or when we go out. Well, I don't drink beer, but it's cool anyway that most people enjoy Heineken.

leonmarino · 20 May 2006

Hey, why not just agree on the fact that every land/culture is unique? Unique, but neighbouring countries tend to share some common cultural elements.. Sounds simple right? Well in my opinion it is just that.

Japan, due to the hundreds of years of isolation, has some characteristics that can be found nowhere else, but Japan too has been influenced by the rest of the world. The whole Japanese educational system is based on the American system. The post-war Japanese economy is also shaped with the help of Americans. Nagasaki has a 400 year long trading history with Holland. Some very Japanese words are of Dutch, Portuguese or English origin. And my god, the terrible hype around Valentine's day and Christmas.. ﾂ（ﾂ湘篠）

And Meiki, are you proud of Heineken!?ﾂﾂ（ﾅ?ﾂｾﾂ） You should go to Belgium and drink some real beers.. Jupiler, Rodenbach, Westmalle, Brugse Zot, Liefmans Kriek.. Now THAT's authentic!! ﾂ（ﾂ湘篠）

Davey · 20 May 2006

leonmarino said:
And Meiki, are you proud of Heineken!?ﾂﾂ（ﾅ?ﾂｾﾂ） You should go to Belgium and drink some real beers.. Jupiler, Rodenbach, Westmalle, Brugse Zot, Liefmans Kriek.. Now THAT's authentic!! ﾂ（ﾂ湘篠）

Haha, I am proud of Heineken, but that's more because of they are all over the world, and their history. I agree that Belgium beer is authentic, and having 400 sorts of beer in a country is amazing! and hai unique

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

Meiki said:
Erm, sorry but aren't Roman and Greek civilisation totally different and far ''ancient'' (not saying superior) than Scandinavian culture?
But Greek and Roman civilisation have had the upperhand in influencing other countries, like the alphabet and such.
And didn't Greeks had contact with other civilisations besides Rome? I think most civilisations aren't pure.

Modern Europe has inherited from the Greeks, Romans, Celts,Germanics and Scandinavians, Slavs... Of course there is no such things as a "pure" civilisations as ideas and habits travel.

Maybe you were referring to my definition of "pure" like in "pure Dutch". That was not about culture of course, but just blood, lineage.

I don't really see a European civilisation. A civilisation is something ''ancient'' to me.

Well, you are wrong. Check the dictionary.

And other places lagged behind, but definitely not inferior.
I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.

I feel like I am having a conversation with a child...

Anyway OT again, you know that world's famous beer is Heineken, right? It's Dutch . We love to have a fresh beer after work or when we go out. Well, I don't drink beer, but it's cool anyway that most people enjoy Heineken.

So what ? What's your point ? Many Dutch people tend to think of Heineken as a low-class commercial beer compared to some other Dutch or Belgian beer. Are you even Dutch ?

KrazyKat · 20 May 2006

Meiki said:
I don't think there's much of a ''European'' culture or an ''Asian'' culture, a Europe and Asia are man-made terms to define area's.
I just think in countries, nations.

I think that countries and nations are far closer to being just man-made terms to define areas than something like Europe, especially many of the countries created through colonialism. If Europe is jsut a term to define an area it isn't a very good one since its very hard to come to a definate conclusion of where exactly does it end? Does it include Israel which is in the eurovision song contest, or North African countries that want to join the EU - and were part of the Roman Empire? Perhaps it could even be seen as the extent of Christianity? It can also mean jsut the EU, or just continental Europe.

I clearly see there being a European culture and common history. However, each country or region within Europe doesn't share all of this common culture and contains parts that are unique to itself.

Is this thread about Japan, or Europe?

Meiki · 20 May 2006

About JAPAN !

so we know that Japan has it's very own musicscene

how about yours?

don't need to reply if you're american, cause we all know american stars are very popular abroad too, due to the dominating american entertainment, hollywood-movies and such .

so japanese people cherish their own artists, singers, groups and bands very much and the majority of the entertainers/artists on the Oricon-list are japanese, and on the second place it would be korean artists, I think.

I know Britney Spears, Maria Carey, etc. are popular too in Japan.

Mikawa Ossan · 20 May 2006

RockLee said:
How can anybody who's a 2nd or 3rd generation into a country say something about the country they are currently residing in as THEIR ancestors??? Her/his ancestors would be Chinese, right :? =>
Technically speaking her/his her people are Chinese, not Dutch if you go back in time.Unless one of her/his parents is Dutch ofcourse

Maciamo said:
That's not the way most people understand it in Europe. To give you a more local example, to be considered as a Roman by local Romans, even if you are "pure Italian", your family needs to have been established in Rome for at least 7 generations.

I suppose the expressive "native Dutch" or even better "stock Dutch" would be better to describe someone with "pure" Dutch ancestry. Personally, "pure" would mean something like 100% of one's ancestors have lived in the country for at least 300 years. Most Europeans have (or could have, given a bit of research) a genealogical tree going back to several centuries. Local archives in Belgium have everyone's birth, marriage and death certificate since the 17th or 18th century, and up to the 11th century if you have ancestors in the nobility. So it's easy to check how "pure" somebody is. I guess this mindset that doesn't help with integrating immigrants though...

I was getting ready to discuss these issues, as they are important to me, but I simply see no point in doing so on behalf of someone who writes,

Wow, my profile is really screwed up . On another board my nationaility is Nigerian . I like to mess with people's head . Okay, I'm sorry for the confusion, but I've never understood the meaning of a profile, you can make up things as much as you want and people would believe it. Kekeke, me Chinese....

mad pierrot · 20 May 2006

You know what's great about this thread?

I'm learning alot about Europe!

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

KrazyKat said:
I think that countries and nations are far closer to being just man-made terms to define areas than something like Europe, especially many of the countries created through colonialism. If Europe is jsut a term to define an area it isn't a very good one since its very hard to come to a definate conclusion of where exactly does it end? Does it include Israel which is in the eurovision song contest, or North African countries that want to join the EU - and were part of the Roman Empire? Perhaps it could even be seen as the extent of Christianity? It can also mean jsut the EU, or just continental Europe.

Europe clearly does not include North Africa or Israel. But Russia is definitely part of the European civilisation (more than Turkey, which is "half-European" from her mother-side ).

I clearly see there being a European culture and common history. However, each country or region within Europe doesn't share all of this common culture and contains parts that are unique to itself.

No need to state the obvious. If China were to plit up in 20 countries, you could also say that each of the country had its own culture (different food, different languages), and some shared more together than others. Same for India. It may be difficult if you haven't studied about world cultures, but there are undeniable similarities shared between countries within Europe, South Asia and East Asia (not so much South-East Asia though) so that we can define them as "civilisation".

A civilisation goes beyond political borders. When I speak of "Indian Civilisation", it includes Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and to a lesser extent also Nepal and parts of Afghanistan. When I speak of "Chinese Civilisation", it includes Taiwan, Japan, Korea and Vietnam (but maybe not Tibet), not just the People's Republic of China. Modern countries are only made to confuse us as the generally do not fit with cultural borders. It's confusing to talk of "Indian" civilisation when a country is also called India but the borders of both do not match. Just remember that historically the region was divided in dozens of countries, with empires rising and falling, some just in the North, others in the Sout, and others indluding most of the Indian subcontinent. It's the same as in Europe.

China too has been divided in various kingdoms, and some empires included Vietnam, Korea, Manchuria or Tibet, while others didn't. None included Japan, but trade, political and cultural ties with Japan were always strong. Ethnically, the Japanese are much closer to the Chinese than the Portuguese are to the Finns. Linguisticially too (Japanese got 50% of its vocabulary from Chinese, a similar proportion as to what English got from Latin).

South-East Asia could hardly be called a civilisation because many of these countries do not share much in common. Ethnically, some people are white-skinned (e.g. Vietnamese, Thai...), other dark-skinned (e.g. Cambodian, Indonesian...). Some languages are related to Chinese (e.g. Vietnamese, Thai...), others are not (Indonesian, Tagalog...). Some countries are Buddhist, others Muslim, others Christian. Cultures evolved differently enough not to be part of a bigger whole. That's probably caused by the high fragmentation of the region in islands and peninsulas. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines could maybe be regarded as the same civilisation though.

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

Meiki said:
About JAPAN !
so we know that Japan has it's very own music scene
how about yours?

It is people asking questions like that that gave me a bad impression of the Japanese. Isn't it obvious that every country has its own traditional and modern music, singers and bands ?

don't need to reply if you're american, cause we all know american stars are very popular abroad too, due to the dominating american entertainment, hollywood-movies and such .

Then who are you addressing in particular on this forum ? Not the Americans and not the Japanese (and not the Chinese I suppose, as you are one and also know about it, right ?). That means mostly the Europeans. Yet you live in Europe, and supposedly have heard singers and bands from many countries (maybe all if you cared to watch the Eurovision contest each year). I guess you also know that in terms of traditional music (in very broad lines) Scotland has bagpipes, Italy has mandolins, Spain has Flamenco, France has chansons, and Germany or Austria lieders. Add to that classical music from the 16th to 20th century. I am sure you can find famous composers from most European countries: Grieg fro Norway, Sibelius from Finland, Elgar or Holst from Britain, Liszt from Hungary, Dvorak from Czechia, and so many from France, Italy, Russia, Germany or Austria...

KrazyKat · 20 May 2006

Maciamo said:
Europe clearly does not include North Africa or Israel.

I agree. I just picked places with weak claims to try and stretch the definition. Personally, I wouldn't consider Turkey to be part of Europe either. (Although whether or not to join the EU is a slightly different question)

Maciamo said:
But Russia is definitely part of the European civilisation (more than Turkey, which is "half-European" from her mother-side ).

Again, I agree. However, this in itself brings more questions about the 'borders' of 'Europe'. Would the Asian parts of Russia also be considered part of European civilisation? (The Asain CIS states surely wouldn't) My point is simply that what is Europe or not is to at least some extent open to personal opinion.

Meiki said:
About JAPAN !
so we know that Japan has it's very own musicscene
how about yours?

How can the thread be about Japan if you are only asking questions about everywhere except for Japan?

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

KrazyKat said:
Again, I agree. However, this in itself brings more questions about the 'borders' of 'Europe'. Would the Asian parts of Russia also be considered part of European civilisation?

Again, civilisation is about culture and heritage, not political or geographical borders. Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand are also part of the European civilisation. Turkey is not geographically in Europe, but its heritage and culture is half European. Cyprus is not more geographically in Europe than Turkey. In fact, it is nearer from the Middle East than Europe. But nobody contests its right to be in the EU as it is clearly European in culture.

pipokun · 20 May 2006

Just curious to know who and how many people finds affinity to roman or greek cultures in Europe now.

KrazyKat · 20 May 2006

Maciamo said:
Again, civilisation is about culture and heritage, not political or geographical borders. Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand are also part of the European civilisation. Turkey is not geographically in Europe, but its heritage and culture is half European. Cyprus is not more geographically in Europe than Turkey. In fact, it is nearer from the Middle East than Europe. But nobody contests its right to be in the EU as it is clearly European in culture.

Exactly what I think. Sorry If I wasn't being very clear.

Maciamo · 20 May 2006

pipokun said:
Just curious to know who and how many people finds affinity to roman or greek cultures in Europe now.

Let's make a poll ! I believe a very large majority.

pipokun · 20 May 2006

Maciamo said:
Let's make a poll ! I believe a very large majority.

Sounds interesting. Nietzsche would be glad to hear that.

One thing I really envy the Europe is that few people would be proud "Who invented somthing first", "Who let you know our great culture", or something like that.

leonmarino · 20 May 2006

Hm..

Well, they say the Greek civilization is the basis of European civilization.. But apart from a delicious bun of Gyros, I don't have a lot of affinity with Greece.

nova · 21 May 2006

Personally I think all countries are "authentic" in their very own way, I don't like to make judgments between countries or cultures, and which is best or more "original". My opinion on this topic is that maybe you see Japan as an "authentic place" because you find too different, interesting or at least unique their culture and customs in comparison with your culture.

Maciamo · 21 May 2006

nova said:
Personally I think all countries are "authentic" in their very own way, I don't like to make judgments between countries or cultures, and which is best or more "original".

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly with you and other members who have expressed the same view. This, however, is one of the reason that made me leave Japan, because 95% of the Japanese I have ever met were convinced that Japan was more unique or more "special" than other cultures, which gave them so kind of (sometimes condescending) pride. Hearing that almost everyday certainly gets on your nerves.

caster51 · 25 May 2006

Japanese got 50% of its vocabulary from Chinese, a similar proportion as to what English got from Latin).

Today
70% of modern chinese vocabulary was made by japanese

Japan is actually a very pride, 'authentic' nation, isn't it?

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