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Uncle Frank

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mash27 said:
Conversly, when men enter areas such as secreterial workl, nursing, hair dressing they do so at the expense of their masculinity and they are usually gay. Look around u and u will start to realize that this is fact, not opinion.

HE, HE...haven't had anyone in 11 years even hint they think I am gay(as a male nurse); my wife and I would kick the crap out of them!

Uncle Frank

😊
 

Elizabeth

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yukio_michael said:
This thread has it all: grave-misinformation, self imposed race-hating, and the overal exhaltation of the Japanese as a somewhat other-worldly, kinder, smarter, & better group of people we should all naturally long to become.
I think the values and behaviors extolled here are very dated to pre-economic collapse of the early 1990's that has brought about convulsive changes and profound breakdowns to traditional Japanese society....if there ever was such a time which I seriously doubt judging from the throngs of right-wing, ultranationalist nutcases. You certainly won't find a lot of average Japanese people agreeing with the OP about their own country. 😊

自分が良く知らないことなのに、人から聞いた話やメディアから
勝手に先入感を持つことは差別につながりますね。 :eek:
 

nice gaijin

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Elizabeth said:
You certainly won't find a lot of average Japanese people agreeing with the OP about their own country. 😊
Yes, this makes me wonder what kind of beliefs and misconceptions people have of my own country as well.

ナスツゥ窶「ツェ窶堋ェ窶氾??堋ュ窶冦窶堙ァ窶堙遺?堋「窶堋ア窶堙??堙遺?堙娯?堙可、ツ人窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ窶「ツキ窶堋「窶堋スヒ彙窶堙「ニ陳?断ニ達ニ但窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ
ツ焦クナスティ窶堙可静ヲ窶愿シナ?’窶堙ーナスツ昶?堙や?堋ア窶堙??堙債債キ窶「テ岩?堙俄?堙や?堙遺?堋ェ窶堙ィ窶堙懌?堋キ窶堙仰。 :eek:
ナス^ツ青ャ窶堙??堋キツ。窶敕樞?堙ァ窶堙戸?毒陳ゥ窶堋カ窶堙。窶堙遺?堋「窶堙ヲ窶堋、窶堙??堋キ窶堙仰。
 

ArmandV

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No J-women composers?! Try listening to Michiru Oshima's scores. She's great! (IMHO)
 
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nice gaijin said:
A lot of the "creativity" you're referring to is not a result of less hindrance, but more likely a backlash against the heavy repression Japanese society inflicts on its citizens on a daily basis.

Such as the incredible amounts of (sometimes absurd) violence in movies, or the roles of many female anime characters running sharply contrary to social norms for Japanese society?

As for creativity in general, the 1990s (to me at least) seemed to be an incredible time of creativity both in the United States and in Japan. Risks were taken at the box office in the U.S. that turned out to be intriguing and genre-changing, and several earthshattering anime emerged to set new standards.

Unfortunately, the "aughts" have been much less invigorated. Anime are either DBZ or Eva rip-offs, constantly suffering from the "Oh My God, He's the ONE!"-syndrome, or showcasing a plethora of religious imagery arranged randomly. And American cinema has become remarkably unoriginal as well.

I'm wondering if its not so much a cultural thing with either nation, or if both the U.S. and Japan are suffering from some sort of creative fatigue?

CC1 said:
Forced respect is not respect!

True. But is respect in Japan "forced"?

Many will be tempted to point at American culture and the lack of respect within it. In my opinion, the ideals of respect in both culture are quite different and not necessarily easily comparable. That being said, the American ideals regarding respect are lived up to less and less.

Mycernius said:
Into sterotypes aren't you. Most male hairdressers and nurses I know are not gay. Yet I know gay managers, bouncers etc. I don't think that a lot of female writers have scarificed their feminity for their careers.

There are always problems with stereotypes and broad generalizations. However, people tend to fall within categories. Arguments regarding general trends are totally valid. Pointing out exceptions doesn't negate the fact that large mobs of people tend to move in the same direction. It's part of being a social animal.

But I do agree with your statement that female writers haven't necessarily surrendered their femininity. Neither have all women in the workplace.

mash27 said:
Men and women are very different, men have their needs and unique adaptations and women have theirs. However The west has been brainwashed by feminist discourse for the last 200 years into forgeting the most basic facts about males and females and the nature of their relation.

1) You must have some mean huevos to open this can of worms.

2) I hate to say it, but you are right (although I'd pick a more diplomatic term than "brainwashed"). However, feminism is only a small part of a larger postmodern movement that began a cultural revolution in the United States back in the 1960s. Although great achievements were made in civil rights and equalities, like most revolutions, they didn't know when to stop and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. In many ways, the nuclear family is suffering, and it isn't just because of feminism that Americans have produced Chuck Palhaniuk's "generation of men raised by women" (i.e. with very weak or nonexistent male role-models/influences), but also because of the transforming American economy. Traditional beliefs and values are under siege, and while some of those values were bad (such as "white superiority"), others are being destroyed, and replaced with a new set of absolutes that are not necessarily more beneficial to American society.

Anyway, what has that got to do with Japan? Well, they seem to be in the throes of a cultural revolution of their own, albeit they are transforming much less rapidly than the American one. Because it seems to be developing slower than the American phenomenon, perhaps the transition will be more constructive and less chaotic and polarizing than it is in the United States.

As an aside, mash27, although you made many good points, you also made a few unwarranted blanket statements. Diplomacy can go a long way in a debate.
 

mash27

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yukio_michael said:
This thread has it all: grave-misinformation, self imposed race-hating, and the overal exhaltation of the Japanese as a somewhat other-worldly, kinder, smarter, & better group of people we should all naturally long to become.

That's your own misguided interpretation. Just because I admire certain things about Japan doesn't mean I believe they are other-wordly.

My point is simply that Japan offers a very intersting alternative to the western way of looking at the world and evaluating things and frankly one that's closer to my heart. I'm not the only one to say this. For instance french philosopher Roland Barthes wrote an entire book about "signes" in Japanese culture and he explains how they are the farthest removed from the disgust of Western semiotics and the closest to his own convictions.

I suspect that many in this forum do not have the depth of vision to see some of these things, since most people seem to be intersted in Japan becuase of it video games or anime and once they go to Japan and find that Goku is not shooting energy balls in the tokyo sky they get disapointed.

All I can say is that I find that many things are fundamentally wrong and rotten in the West and that Japan, while not being perfect or problem-free, offers a respite from the bad taste, excessive moralizing and self-righteousness of the west who's bent on reforming the Japanese so that they can be more "western" and learn western things like feeling shame about porn and nudity, disrupting the natural roles of male and female, phasing out perversions and making them "underground", spreading christianity and its ideas of sin, and the beyond and I could go on....
 

Tollen

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hehe i do agree with some tings you've said mash ol' chap, christianity and "the west" do seem to think that the american/western way s the "right" way and thus attempt to spoon feed everyone such silly ideas... and in some ways yes some male/female boundarys have been blurred for the worse but to be honest your rant here seems, at points devoid of common sense and just simply an angry man/woman's dislike @ their living situations and environments...

relating to your earlier post along the lines of "men suit some roles better" yes i agree in some ways men do "TEND" to be found in these roles more often but this has little/noothing in common with what men and women are each good for...

they say that a little knowledge is a bad thing and think that You've read too many opinionated culture bashing novels and books... can we have some sort of summation of what you're trying to say here because it is bitty at best and sightly contradictory (though that may jsut be my comprehesion of what you're saying)...

you're right in some respects yes but you're overstating how right you are by a looong way...
 

mash27

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GodEmperorLeto said:
Such as the incredible amounts of (sometimes absurd) violence in movies, or the roles of many female anime characters running sharply contrary to social norms for Japanese society?.

Many american movies are just as violent as Japanese movies. Humans throughout history have sliced one another with blades, so seeing it on TV is just normal and perhaps even acts as a safety valve to vent excess steam.


GodEmperorLeto said:
Pointing out exceptions doesn't negate the fact that large mobs of people tend to move in the same direction. It's part of being a social animal.

You're a smart guy GodEmperorLeto. Finally someone mentions this point which for some reasons most people are incapable of formulating in their thick heads.


GodEmperorLeto said:
2) I hate to say it, but you are right (although I'd pick a more diplomatic term than "brainwashed"). However, feminism is only a small part of a larger postmodern movement that began a cultural revolution in the United States back in the 1960s. Although great achievements were made in civil rights and equalities, like most revolutions, they didn't know when to stop and now the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. In many ways, the nuclear family is suffering, and it isn't just because of feminism that Americans have produced Chuck Palhaniuk's "generation of men raised by women" (i.e. with very weak or nonexistent male role-models/influences), but also because of the transforming American economy. Traditional beliefs and values are under siege, and while some of those values were bad (such as "white superiority"), others are being destroyed, and replaced with a new set of absolutes that are not necessarily more beneficial to American society.

I hope that Japan dones't turn into a clone of the west. This is why contemprorary western ideals (decadent ideals) should be rejected in order to save Japan from falling into the terrible mess the West is in.

Japan has been able so far to maintain a healthier stance in many areas of life compared to the West (I know there are problems and I'm not saying Japan is perfect) particularly in areas of gender, sexuality and morality. (they are anti-christian in the full sense of the term and for me nothing could be a greater sign of health).
Gender roles, sexual practices and different moral standards among other things in Japan are just fine the way they are even if western propaganda attempts to convince use that japan is in need of reform. It's the west that's in need of reform and BADLY.


GodEmperorLeto said:
As an aside, mash27, although you made many good points, you also made a few unwarranted blanket statements. Diplomacy can go a long way in a debate.

I enjoy being straigntforward and political UNcorrect as much as I can. I save diplomacy for special occasions.
 

Davey

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Elizabeth said:
ナスツゥ窶「ツェ窶堋ェ窶氾??堋ュ窶冦窶堙ァ窶堙遺?堋「窶堋ア窶堙??堙遺?堙娯?堙可、ツ人窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ窶「ツキ窶堋「窶堋スヒ彙窶堙「ニ陳?断ニ達ニ但窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ
ツ焦クナスティ窶堙可静ヲ窶愿シナ?’窶堙ーナスツ昶?堙や?堋ア窶堙??堙債債キ窶「テ岩?堙俄?堙や?堙遺?堋ェ窶堙ィ窶堙懌?堋キ窶堙仰。 :eek:

nice gaijin said:
ナス^ツ青ャ窶堙??堋キツ。窶敕樞?堙ァ窶堙戸?毒陳ゥ窶堋カ窶堙。窶堙遺?堋「窶堙ヲ窶堋、窶堙??堋キ窶堙仰。

Please keep it on English Elizabeth and nice gaijin, so that everyone can understand each other. Thank you
 

DoctorP

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Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments! It is just plain childish.
 
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CC1 said:
Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments! It is just plain childish.

Ummm, yeah. I'm not mash. He's apparently Canadian, I'm from New Jersey.

mash27 said:
Many american movies are just as violent as Japanese movies.

Not denying that. However, American movies (with the exception of some slashers) have toned down on it. Terminator 2 comes to mind (with a very small body count) for example. Quentin Tarrantino is an exception, and obviously heavily influenced by Japanese movies. But anyway...

mash27 said:
I hope that Japan dones't turn into a clone of the west. This is why contemprorary western ideals (decadent ideals) should be rejected in order to save Japan from falling into the terrible mess the West is in.

I'm not suggesting that they are, or that they should, for the most part. If they are evolving more slowly, they'll be able to adapt more easily than by having a complete cultural overhaul like the West is experiencing.

By the way, I don't reject Western values, nor do I find them inferior to Eastern/Japanese ways.

mash27 said:
(they are anti-christian in the full sense of the term and for me nothing could be a greater sign of health).

Sounds like nice_gaijin was right about you being a fan of Nietzsche.

Tollen said:
christianity and "the west" do seem to think that the american/western way s the "right" way and thus attempt to spoon feed everyone such silly ideas...

Silly ideas such as... equality? Liberty? Democracy? Freedom of speech? Ideals that allow some of you to mock and deride your own cultures, institutions, religions, and societies without fear of secret police or religious persecution?

No, maybe the United States shouldn't be force-feeding these ideals to people as some might percieve it, but I can recall the "glorious" empires of Europe that the "sun never set upon" promoting greed, exploitation, authoritarianism, and mercantalism, and sowing the seeds of global mistrust of the West long before the Bushes were elected to the Presidency.

I want to set the record straight here. Japan is a nation like any other, and like those nations, it has a culture. It's culture evolved due to factors more numerous to mention outside of a 5-volume work of epic scholarship, much like any other.

Cultures do not exist in a vacuum. They constantly grow, change and evolve, especially due to cross-cultural contacts. If Japan grows more Western, or if the West steadily grows to adopt more Eastern outlooks, that would not be unusual to history. Ethnocentrism may strengthen a culture for a short time, but over the long-run it loses out. And like it or not, Western culture has a lot to offer. So does Japan.
 

feelinjapan

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ok...
I guess that with my "naive" post I created a good debate.
Thank you for all the responses...and I'm glad that people like Mike Cash had such a good laugh at my post, laughing is good for your health.

My post was a mix of the wrong ideas and perceptions that many people get from watching the "flashy", colorful cartoons, video games, etc., the "marketed" image of the country.

I just wanted to see how non-japanese people would react...

I think that Japan is the same as any other nation, 'cause in the end is conformed by human beings, we're all the same, with different lifestyles, of course, but nobody is perfect.

It's just that the Japanese society is new, I mean, they were "reborn", and they're trying to define themselves as a society. In the meantime the world is watching and while many will be amazed by their advancements and rebellion to the social and political structure that had for so many years, other will judge them.

It's like watching a teenager getting his independence and trying new things, trying to impress others with his accomplishments and new ideas.
Japan is reinventing itself, but there's no doubt that many mistakes are being made.
 

Mukade

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mash27 said:
My point is simply that Japan offers a very intersting alternative to the western way of looking at the world and evaluating things and frankly one that's closer to my heart. I'm not the only one to say this. For instance french philosopher Roland Barthes wrote an entire book about "signes" in Japanese culture and he explains how they are the farthest removed from the disgust of Western semiotics and the closest to his own convictions.

Barthes knew nothing about Japan before he went there to give a speech. After his short stay, he wrote a book that, although very enlightening regarding the study of semiology, has nothing whatsoever to do with Japan. At best, he came away from his trip with a romanticized vision of a 'mysterious orient,' not unlike many other artists and philosophers from the age of imperialism (although, he honestly probably didn't care, since informing people about Japan was not his agenda when writing 'Empire of Signs').

mash27 said:
I suspect that many in this forum do not have the depth of vision to see some of these things, since most people seem to be intersted in Japan becuase of it video games or anime and once they go to Japan and find that Goku is not shooting energy balls in the tokyo sky they get disapointed.

I had and have no interest in video games or animation, and yet I was still very disillusioned when I came here. The fact is that people often have idealised notions of a place they've never visited, and finding out that the notion doesn't match the reality is the rule rather than the exception.

Anyone who states that the Japanese are more efficient, more polite and more creative than (insert country name here) has clearly never been here.
 

DoctorP

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Mukade said:
Anyone who states that the Japanese are more efficient, more polite and more creative than (insert country name here) has clearly never been here.

Can I insert Mexico into that sentence?

Seriously though...if you have ever worked in a factory in Japan you might say that they are highly efficient! I have been to the Toyota and Nissan plants (all of them) as well as many coal fired, nuclear, and sea water power plants. I would say that they are extremely efficient! If you consider only shopping outlets and combinis then it is obvious that they have a lot to learn.
 

nice gaijin

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Also interesting is that many of factory workers (for Toyota at least) are migrant workers. "No One Home" by Daniel Touro Linger (2001) focuses particularly on the Brasileiros and Nikkeijin working for Toyota in Aichi.
 

Davey

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CC1 said:
Please stop creating new accounts just to try and back up your own poorly thought out arguments!

Nobody is creating new accounts in this thread CC1.
 

Mikawa Ossan

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nice gaijin said:
Also interesting is that many of factory workers (for Toyota at least) are migrant workers. "No One Home" by Daniel Touro Linger (2001) focuses particularly on the Brasileiros and Nikkeijin working for Toyota in Aichi.
Oh yeah, Aichi is teeming with Brazilians. There've become something of a fixture here. Hard to imagine life without them any more. (Yes, I am being serious.)

There are also a lot of Indian curry restaurants around here lately. I think there are a lot of people from Sri Lanka, too.
 

Emoni

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Dutch Baka said:
Nobody is creating new accounts in this thread CC1.
I once created 8 new accounts and started an entire 10 page argument with myself on a forum before... confused the hell out of everyone. Especially when people started taking my side against me or for me. (If it is even possible to follow the logic of that...) This made even less sense because I made sure none of the posts had any sane matter to them.

Anyway, let me sum up differences for the original poster without using anything like "labeling people" or "generalizations."

US has culture. Japan has "窶「ツカ窶ーツサ"

US has a college system with classes. Japan has "ツ寝窶堙ゥ"

US has gang and crime problems. Japan has "窶戲ナステ?

US has the languages English and Spanish. Japan has "窶愿コ窶怒ナ津ェ" and "ツ坂?佛津ェ"

US has gambling in Nevada. Japan does not have any gambling,
it has "ニ恥ニ蛋ニ停?愴坦" and "ニ湛ニ陳哉鍛ニ暖"

US, you bathe INSIDE the bathtub. Japan, you bathe in a "ニ箪ツーニ致ニ停?ーニ停?愴檀"

US has no sense of morals. Japan has "ニ竹ニ鍛ニ鱈ツー"

I hope this solves the confusion. I know it might be hard somedays to live and not be able to genetically become Japanese. Japan might wish this too, since they all decided to stop having sex entirely till the population disappears. Someone needs to talk to them about this.
 

Mike Cash

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Emoni said:
US has gambling in Nevada. Japan does not have any gambling,
it has "ニ恥ニ蛋ニ停?愴坦" and "ニ湛ニ陳哉鍛ニ暖"

And 窶「テウ窶堋ュ窶堋カ and ニ陳哉鍛ニ暖 and 窶ケツ」窶拵 and 窶ケツ」窶氾 and ニ棚ツーニ暖ニ椎陳ーニ湛 and 窶ケツ」窶凖ク....but, as you said, Japan doesn't have any gambling.
 

Emoni

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Ahh, you are right. I forgot about those too.

Ya, it is nice to be in a country that has no gambling at all. The US has numerous locations where gambling is legal, and it really can bring up issues like that. Once again Japan wins out on that issue.

Darn it, I really wish we could just change the US to Japan sometimes...
 

leonmarino

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So anyways, back to the original topic! The Japanese are superior in every sense of the word aren't they!
  • More creative
  • Better sense of morals
  • Smart
  • Good division of roles between men and women
That explains their endless stream of boring game shows with the same celebrities over and over.
The better sense of morals are obvious, the government has ties with the yakuza, which has a lot of ties with businesses ranging from pachinko to real estate.
How smart can you be if you still eat highly contaminated whale meat, take medicine like antibiotics for something as harmless as a flu, just stopped building houses and walls using asbestos last year and fail to speak English after years of education.
And how nice is it that many women submit themselves to being inferior and have to take care of the man and children while the man can't even cook, clean or even lay down a sheet of futon. (The last thing is extreme, but I've experienced it)
Right guys?
 
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Emoni

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leonmarino said:
So anyways, back to the original topic! The Japanese are superior in every sense of the word aren't they!
  • More creative
  • Better sense of morals
  • Smart
  • Good division of roles between men and women
That explains their endless stream of boring game shows with the same celebrities over and over.
The better sense of morals are obvious, the government has ties with the yakuza, which has a lot of ties with businesses ranging from pachinko to real estate.
How smart can you be if you still eat highly contaminated whale meat, take medicine like antibiotics for something as harmless as a flu, just stopped building houses and walls using asbestos last year and fail to speak English after years of education.
And how nice is it that many women submit themselves to being inferior and have to take care of the man and children while the man can't even cook, clean or even lay down a sheet of futon. (The last thing is extreme, but I've experienced it)
Right guys?

Wait wait... I get the feeling that maybe you aren't being very serious about this post.

Anyway, futons are much harder than they look. It is very difficult to put the wooden frame together. I always have trouble getting the peices to lock in so it changes from a couch to a bed correctly.
 

Mike Cash

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Emoni said:
Wait wait... I get the feeling that maybe you aren't being very serious about this post.

Anyway, futons are much harder than they look. It is very difficult to put the wooden frame together. I always have trouble getting the peices to lock in so it changes from a couch to a bed correctly.

I'm guessing that most Japanese men, even the ones who will sometimes put a sheet on one, would scratch their heads in confusion over the idea of a futon having a frame.
 

leonmarino

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Mike Cash said:
I'm guessing that most Japanese men, even the ones who will sometimes put a sheet on one, would scratch their heads in confusion over the idea of a futon having a frame.
This post made me laugh out loud, thanks for making my day! :D
 
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