Japan China dispute over islands.
- Thread starter Gaki
- Start date
You're both wrong anyway.Wang said:
America is a looooong way from overpopulated.
Land area : 9,161,923 sq km
Population : 293,027,571
In comparison
China
Land area : 9,326,410 sq km
Population : 1,298,847,624
On the other hand the big resource hog is still the USA.
For example take electricity production
America
3.719 trillion kWh (2001)
China
1.42 trillion kWh (2001)
That is China uses less than half the electricity for over four times
the people.
Now the bit that is right is that China's economy, resource usage and associated polution is growing rapidly. That last bit is obviously not good news - the problem is that it's rather hypocritical for the Western world to complain about it when they are merely begining to catch up with the big time wasters and polluters that we are.
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
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Nice example of Chinese English.Halcyon said:
Not that it's really worth to read. Countering "US propaganda" with Chinese propaganda is not really helpful.
Wrong. It was conquered by the Manchus around 1700 & incorporated into China (or what one might call Greater Manchuria), but still remained largely autonomous afterwards.
Paying tribute once in a while does not mean that one gives up independence. BTW, if I remember correctly, there were also times that China payed tribute to Tibet.
Here's the Tibetan view on history relating to the Mongols, to which you probably refer by speaking of 700 years.
Wang is not only a Chinese name. It happens to exist in more languages. It's also a German family name (& not only for Chinese immigrants).
hello, Mr Wang
hello, Wang, it seems a bit like you are anti-Chinese. Well, that is all right. Personally, I am not anti-Taiwanese, I've got really good Taiwanese friends.
But everytime we talk about politics, maybe not diplomats with Taiwanese, we got red necked all the time^_^. I still hold the concept that we are one nation, maybe two oppenent states. So don't end up with breaking up the harmony. Taiwan people (or Japnese, does't matter) is also responsible for the harmony, do you reckon?
hello, Wang, it seems a bit like you are anti-Chinese. Well, that is all right. Personally, I am not anti-Taiwanese, I've got really good Taiwanese friends.
But everytime we talk about politics, maybe not diplomats with Taiwanese, we got red necked all the time^_^. I still hold the concept that we are one nation, maybe two oppenent states. So don't end up with breaking up the harmony. Taiwan people (or Japnese, does't matter) is also responsible for the harmony, do you reckon?
TwistedMac
後輩
- 4 Mar 2004
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bossel said:
I can think of other uses for the word...
canadian_kor
Thrill Seeker
- 19 Jun 2004
- 225
- 2
Wang said:
You would if Beijing was headed by a Nationalist government.
canadian_kor
Thrill Seeker
- 19 Jun 2004
- 225
- 2
Why not? Don't you realize that the Taiwanese are ethnically the same as the mainlanders.
canadian_kor said:
No the ethnic groups in Taiwan are the Taiwanese (including Hakka) 84%, mainland Chinese 14%, aborigine 2%.
Intute
Biologically, Taiwanese Han groups are most close to the southern Han group in China. In short, it is highly unlikely that Hakka and Hoklo populations in Taiwan and China are descendants of migrants of northern Chinese. Probably, there are no more than 15-20% of Taiwanese Hakka and Hoklo whose ancestors originated from the northern Han of China. The majority of ancestors (65-70%) might from the southern groups, originally living in southern China, and the other 15% are descended from Taiwanese aborigines.
http://www.hoklo.org/YuetCulture/Articles/?item=1
But the main point is that Taiwan is a democratic country and we have freedom and democracy.
The Taiwanese want Taiwan to be a totally independent country. We don't want to be ruled over by the authoritarian regime of China that opresses its own people.
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
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In addition to what Wang said, the mainlanders are not ethnically homogenous either. There are 55 recognized minorities, & depending on the classification, there may even be 400 different ethnicities.canadian_kor said:
Not to forget, that the Han themselves are not too coherent either. The differences are at least as great as for example those between Germans & Dutch. Now ask the Dutch to join Germany, for being ethnically so close!
canadian_kor
Thrill Seeker
- 19 Jun 2004
- 225
- 2
Wang said:
I see. Can you physically tell the difference between southern Han Chinese (like Hong Kong people, Cantonese, etc.) compared to people who live in the Beijing area? For instance, in Canada we have a Governer General (the Queen's representative) who is of Hakka extraction. However, she looks no different from other Chinese people I've met. I don't know. Perhaps you can give me more links on the differences between the various Chinese ethnic groups, since I am fascinated by these studies.
Regarding the political situation in Taiwan. Would you consider a unification with mainland China if one day (I know this will take a very long time) they implemented a liberal democratic style government? Or do you still want to keep Taiwan separate?
canadian_kor said:
Well I think it's quite difficult to see clear differences. However I think this varies per person of these specific sub-groups. One southern Han may have more prominent physical features that are more different from those of northern Han then the other.
Here is more information about the differences between the Han people of the north and south: Although presented as a unified culture--an idea also accepted by many Western researchers--Han peoples differ in many ways, most obviously in their languages. The supposedly homogenous Han speak eight mutually unintelligible languages (Mandarin, Wu, Yue, Xiang, Hakka, Gan, Southern Min, and Northern Min). Even these subgroups show marked linguistic and cultural diversity; in the Yue language family, for example, Cantonese speakers are barely intelligible to Taishan speakers, and the Southern Min dialects of Quanzhou, Changzhou, and Xiamen are equally difficult to communicate across (Norman 1988: 27). Chinese linguist Y. R. Chao has shown that the mutual unintelligibility of, say, Cantonese and Mandarin is as great as that of Dutch and English or French and Italian (Chao 1976: 83). Mandarin was imposed as the national language early in the 20th century and has become the lingua franca, but like Swahili in Africa it must often be learned in school and is rarely used in everyday life in many areas. Cultural perceptions among the Han often involve broad stereotypical contrasts between north and south (Blake 1981). Northerners tend to be thought of as larger, broader-faced, and lighter- skinned, while southerners are depicted as smaller and darker. Cultural practices involving birth, marriage, and burial differ widely; Fujianese, for example, are known for vibrant folk religious practices and ritualized re-burial of interned corpses, while Cantonese have a strong lineage tradition, both of which are far almost non-existent in the north. One finds radically different eating habits from north to south, with northerners consuming noodles from wheat and other grains, open to consuming lamb and beef, and preferring spicy foods, while the southern diet is based upon rice, eschews such meats in favor of seafood, and along the coast is milder.
There is more information at this site: http://www.ndu.edu/inss/symposia/pacific2000/gladneypaper.htm
Here is a map that shows the ethnic minorities in China http://uk.geocities.com/dlg_ie/china.jpg
Taiwan itself is a seperate and unique country. If China becomes democratic then they have to respect what the people of Taiwan want and that is to be totally independent.
sima_yi
engineer
- 12 Aug 2004
- 95
- 3
Freedom and democracy don't give you the right to separate a state from a nation. If you think China doesn't have freedom and democracy, then you people should try to change it. I think Taiwan's separation from China is a bad idea. If Taiwan really declared independence from China, Chinese government would invade Taiwan immediately; that would be a tragic thing for Taiwanese people. I don't think our government would really help Taiwanese to defend Taiwan....
In U.S, we don't have a coherent ethnicity either. First, we didn't ask American indian to join our federation ^^; we kinda 'forced' them to join up. Haiwii was the same case, we also took it over. But now, we are the most powerful and democratic nation in the world. Do you think if people in Haiwii want to be independent, our government will allow such thing from happening?
bossel said:In addition to what Wang said, the mainlanders are not ethnically homogenous either. There are 55 recognized minorities, & depending on the classification, there may even be 400 different ethnicities.
Not to forget, that the Han themselves are not too coherent either. The differences are at least as great as for example those between Germans & Dutch. Now ask the Dutch to join Germany, for being ethnically so close!
In U.S, we don't have a coherent ethnicity either. First, we didn't ask American indian to join our federation ^^; we kinda 'forced' them to join up. Haiwii was the same case, we also took it over. But now, we are the most powerful and democratic nation in the world. Do you think if people in Haiwii want to be independent, our government will allow such thing from happening?
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
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- 45
Why not? Depends on the constitution of that particular country, or not? Why shouldn't people be able to vote for their independence?sima_yi said:
Most powerful? Yeah. Most democratic? Well, that can be disputed.
Anyway, if your government doesn't allow people in Hawaii to vote for independence, then a democratic right is missing.
sima_yi
engineer
- 12 Aug 2004
- 95
- 3
Just like Freedom and Democracy don't give Europeans the right to set up colonies and kill 'low class indians' just because indians' tribal systems were not democratic. A nation's interests are the first priority. If Quebec is more democratic than Cananda, do you think it should become a nation and seperate from Canada?
I find your ideal not pratical in the real world. Every nation knows how to protect its national interests which includes prevent any seperation of its states. Let me ask you, if your ideal is so wonderful, howcome none of the developed nation won't allow seperation of state?
Just drop your ideal of so called "democracy could save the world". Pure democracy is pure chaos. Our government's political system is not perfect, but at least it is in form of democratic government. People could make their countries to become better; escaping its own problems by declaring seperation from one nation won't help -.-
I find your ideal not pratical in the real world. Every nation knows how to protect its national interests which includes prevent any seperation of its states. Let me ask you, if your ideal is so wonderful, howcome none of the developed nation won't allow seperation of state?
Just drop your ideal of so called "democracy could save the world". Pure democracy is pure chaos. Our government's political system is not perfect, but at least it is in form of democratic government. People could make their countries to become better; escaping its own problems by declaring seperation from one nation won't help -.-
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bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
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- 45
Agreed, but I don't see how this connects to a part of a nation becoming independent by vote.sima_yi said:
Nope, to me my own interests come first.
Why not? Counter question: Should Canada go to war if Quebec decided to go its own way?
Because of silly, deep ingrained, well established 19th century nationalism.
Anyway, none?
I remember the amicable split of CSSR into Czech Republic & Slovakia.
The EU has adopted a passage into its new constitution, that countries may leave even after the union will be established (AFAIK).
My ideal? I'm not even a democrat, but a Libertarian. How could democracy be my ideal? Ideal would be Libertarian, realistic is democratic.
Just like Quebecers, Bavarians or Hawaiians should be able to gain independence, Taiwanese should have the right to decide for themselves. What differentiates the Taiwanese situation from the others I mentioned, is the fact that it actually is already independent. Only that it is factual instead of nominal independence.
sima_yi
engineer
- 12 Aug 2004
- 95
- 3
Yeah, except when Taiwan gets its independence, it is when China invades and destroys it. I doubt any country would come and defend Taiwan; even our government has this one China policy:"there is only one China, and Taiwan is part of China". I don't know how German government deals with China.
For Taiwan people interests, it is better not to declare independence now. Isn't that Taiwan and Taiwanese' interest? Just to get a 'name' on U.N, they would have to face destruction; I think that is extremely non-sense.
For Taiwan people interests, it is better not to declare independence now. Isn't that Taiwan and Taiwanese' interest? Just to get a 'name' on U.N, they would have to face destruction; I think that is extremely non-sense.
sima_yi
engineer
- 12 Aug 2004
- 95
- 3
Treaty is just a piece of paper. Every nation should deal with the international events properly, not according to any treaty. Treaty sometimes puts an unseen bound to what a country can to for its own benifit.bossel said:
Even U.S has treaty with Taiwan, but I think when China invades Taiwan, our government won't do a thing about it except some "talks"
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- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
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Mandylion said:
I wonder which country's government would be more tolerant about having people burning their national flag in front of their embassy. Just for the sake of scientific experiment, and pyschological research on national cultures around the world, I'd like to try and burn each of the world's country's flag right in front of their respective embassies, and see what happens.
Better, I'd like to try the same experiment in the country itself, in a strategic position such as in front of the national parliament. I am pretty sure some countries (China, North Korea...) would give harsh sentences of emprisonment (if not death penalty) for doing so, while others would just turn a blind eye (some European countries). Recording the reactions would be a good way to rank countries bu degree barbarism or absolutism vs civilization and tolerance.
Well, if I had nothing better to do and didn't care about my life (or wanted to be in the news), I might have tried. But let's somebody else do it if they want.
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
It is perfectly fine to burn Japanese flags in Japan, while the Penal Code Article 92 says that it is illegal to damage/destroy foreign flags in Japan.Maciamo said:
