Islam the beacon of light in Japan

[Tyshepp]

It sounds like, well to be honest, it sounds like Islam is in a clash of cultures with every culture not Islamic.

 

[filthydani]

It's pretty convenient, when someone has pointed out something that you have
previously said verbatim, to claim that they simply do not understand Islam. You state "God created us mainly to worship him.", someone points this out, you say, "God did not put us here only for one purpose--- you must not understand Islam then. Which is it filthydani, you can't have it both ways. You can't evade every counterpoint with a blanket statement that the infidel just doesn't understand Islam.

It's the truth, most people (none belivers) don't understand Islam, "God created us mainly to worship him.", but that doesn't mean he limits us to live this life for only one single purpose like praying to him all the time and forget helping the society for example or to accomplish a dream you would like to do in this life, when I said god created us mainly to worship him, it doesn't mean you are not allowed to do any other things but to worship Allah, there are a lot of ways of worshipping, its not praying only..

So basically, rather than choosing to be good, choosing to act in the way that Allah would say you should live, Islam forces you to do so-called good things. Even when we act out of fear of punishment, we are not said to be using any sort of free-will, something inherently necissary when one chooses to worship this or that. So you can say, that you didn't really choose Islam, if you were fearfull of Allah's retribution against you, should you not follow his commands. It's a very important part of modern theological thought to include free will,

What's the problem in it? Actually you are being good when you act the way that Allah wants and not you, this is called faith, god asks us to help people as much as we can, its not about zakkah only, you can help by zakkah and by other ways too, Islam forces us to do the good things, but I don't see what's wrong with that? You might say, then why cant human beings just be good without being asked to be good? Well, what is the problem if its being asked by the religion? What's the harm in that I do not understand? We should act out of fear of punishment, because god can do whatever he wants to us, and there is no way to escape him

Even when we act out of fear of punishment, we are not said to be using any sort of free-will in the equasion

We do act of free will, god wants us to do the so called good things, but we can also do bad things if we want, that is "free-will", you get things mixed up, you thing if god wants us to do the good things only, then there is nothing called "free-will", I don't think god would want you to do something that will harm people..

but it seems as if Islam (please correct me if I am wrong), is not at all interested in modern interpretation of Allah's word, but a strong sense of orthodoxical process that removes all thought from action, and resolves all actions as being in the benefit of Islam & Allah. Am I correct in saying this?

Basiclly it's a mix, there are things you should do without having any thoughts if it is asked directly from Allah, because if you have a very strong faith, you would know, whatever he wants, would be good for you, for example god said in quran, girls or women aren't supposed to have "boyfriends", or its forbidden to drink alcohol and eat pork, you might ask me why did god create pork in the first place? God made good looking animals, and made bad looking animals as well, he wants to show you that he is very creative in every thing in a good way and bad way as well.
There are things you need to have some thoughts before doing the action, there are things that aren't known if they are forbidden or allowed in Islam, like for example: masturbating and others things I don't remember at the moment, he wants us to seek knowledge as much as we can, the first word that was written in Quran was "iqraa" means "read"
Islam can adapt to any society easily, weather its rich or poor, for example like Indonesia, they are mostly Muslims and have strong economics, its very flexible, and it doesn't make people live in the stone age by its rules, actually it makes it better and more protective

Let's try a thought excersise. Imagine for a moment that there is no god. No Allah. There is no Islam. Imagine what would you do? To make it easier, let's pretend that you NEVER KNEW about Allah & Islam... how would you act? Please don't answer in how you THINK you would re-act... in despondance or whathaveyou. I'm interested in your actions towards other people. Without Islam to tell you what to do, without ANY religion to tell you what to do, how would you act? Would you be kind to others. Would you help your fellow man, regardless of where he comes from and to what tribe he belongs? Would you hold yourself, and soely yourself accountable for all of your actions?
I would hope that in a modern society, a society free from the necessity of a complicated orthodoxy instated to control often downtrodden and starving masses that we would choose to act in a method that seems (and I say seems because there is a very specific argument with the reasons one say, does what is refered to as 'good' vs. 'evil'...) to be good.
Regardless of our own spirituality, which I think is necissary even when it manifests itself in a personal non-theological way, I think we as people need to act with some form of autonomy, by default. However we choose to act, it should be in the best interest of our fellow man. Not soley in the best interest of our personal groups, be they race or religion. I think this should be natural to us... but institutions set us apart from each other, and have us making statements about "the one true religion"... and how all those outside of that religion or institution, are obviously wrong.

The soul in its original status, should be doing the good things only, so if Islam didn't exist, I would follow what my soul tells me, but some times the soul changes because of the environments, a guy who is raised from a religions family isn't the same as a guy who is raised from an atheist family, but the soul, in its originally status, the soul should be doing the good and not that bad, I wonder if you even believe in something called soul in the first place? Because if you didn't, it will be extremely hard for me to convince you in any thing, let's talk about love for example, how could you tell that you hate that person or love him? (talking about the opposite sex), I mean you do believe in love, but you can never see love or hear if, you can only feel it, where do you think that feelings is coming from?
You have to know that humans aren't alone in this world, devils exist, we don't see them, but they see us, and they actually have a great effect of how or what people do, you don't except people would actually care about others, they will only think about their selves, and do bad things, so don't expect things will be perfect if all the people didn't believe in religion, because simply we are not aloneﾂ…
I know you want me to prove that the devil exist, but as I said, you can know from your soul, sometimes the devil can actually get inside your soul, he WONT force you to do bad things, BUT he will give you BAD thoughts, it is impossible for me to prove this physically too you, you can only feel it, if I could prove it, then everyone would be Muslim, and everyone would believe in heaven and hell, and everyone would go to heaven very easily, I don't think god wants things to be simple as that, god doesn't want human to prove his existence physically so people don't believe him "in the easy way"
Life is not easy.

So now you are saying that your God is a bully and a tyrant. In your last post you said "because god himself created human beings mainly to worship him" That is vanity. To create or to make something to worship you.

Why cant you say that Allah likes us? But he wants to test us so we can live in heaven for eternity, eternity means you can not go there easily, you have to work really hard for it, you might say, why did he create us from the first place? Why did he even create Adam, eve, and Satan? What's the point? He is god right?
Why don't you look at it from a different angel? Like heaven for example, if he didn't create adam and Satan, there would be no heaven for us human, right? Going to heaven is better than not to exist, that's how I see itﾂ….

What you essentially said was that if we didn't, we feel worthless. I do not feel worthless and a great many atheists do not feel worthless

Its easy to lie to yourself, I know how exactly who you feel..
Just tell me what things you really do in this life that makes you not to feel worthless?

Now you are saying he tells us to worship it. God actually demands! our worship. You are doing something that is fairly recent development in the worship of God (Last 200 to 300 years) and that is going back to the idea of attributing human frailities to a diety. Islam never picked this up because when Muhammad formulatted the faith he was influenced by the large Jewish and Eastern Christians that lived in the area At this time God was seen as unknowable and because we are humans we cannot put our human emotions onto what is beyond our knowledge. Modern perceptions to give God love, hate, envy, etc, stem from the start of the reformation and the renaissence, when people begain to question God and discover more about the true nature of the universe. As a reaction against sciencetific discoveries people started readin scripture as true, not as allergories. This led to giving God human frailities again. Something you will find in older mythological religions and early modern religions.

As I said, from your soul you can tell, I want to ask you something, do you even believe in something called soul? Because Its important for me to know that..
If you understand Arabic, there is absolutely no way any man could write the Quran the way god did, its extremely unimaginable how did god write it, this proves that the Quran is a miracle, you might not notice that because you don't know Arabic, but just ask any non-Muslim who knows Arabic if he could create just one sentence like in the Quran, no one will even be able to do it, because god himself said that in Quranﾂ…
By your soul, and by the obvious evidence, there is no way that Mohammed have actually wrote this by himself or if it's a hoax, there are 1.6 million Muslim around the worldﾂ…
All the scientific evidences prove what is written in Quran is trueﾂ…
Islam Guide: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
Scientists On The Qur'an

To me it sounds like a version of hell. Plus it is a very Quakerish view of the world. The more you suffer the better your afterlife will be. I sure that is really comforting to someone whoses children die because of malnutrition, war, disease. You make your God sound like a real nasty piece of work and I do not wish to worship such a deity.

You don't expect going to a place like heaven will be easy, because you will live there for eternity, you will never ever suffer there, so going there will need you to do a lot of hard work, it is not supposed to be easy to go there, you know the prophet Muhammad said the success rate for going to heave in only .0001%, that means one from 1000 would actually go to heaven

Do you know that during the height of Islamic culture your view would have been held as primitive and verging on the heretical? Not that they would have done anything. During that time Islam was one of the most tolerant religions around

Why would you assume it to be primitive and verging? Muhammad (pbuh) himself said that he said going to heaven wont be easy, I didn't get it from my mind, he said most who people suffered in this world are the prophets that are at the top of heavenﾂ…

Only the dead really know that answer and they are keeping that sercret to themselves

Yes, and that's the way its supposed to be, because if they could tell that little secret, everyone would be Muslim by now, and no one would work hard to know the real truth as the way god wantsﾂ…

are you saying that atheists are all bad people? That our 'souls' are bad because we don't worship God? You don't know me. For all you know I might give most of my money to the needy, do community work and help the sick. You are judging me on the fact I'm an atheist. That is narrowminded and verging on the bigotted

I didn't say that you are bad people at all, there are Muslim people who are much worse than atheists, I didn't mean atheists only, like you can change the word atheists for gangsters? Do you think a guy who is raised between gangsters will be a good guy or a bad guy? 99% he will be bad..
And as I said the soul in its original status is supposed to do the good things weather you are atheist or Jewish or Christianﾂ…..
But you have to realize you don't expect god will make something like what happened in (Noah) story to happen every 100 years so people actually believe in him, there is supposed to be only one religion from the first place.

No, when you worship Allah it is what it does to you. Don't speak for other people and how they feel when they worship God. Their ideas on how they feel are based on their own feeling and thoughts. Don't assume that everyone is like you or you are guilty of vanity yourself

I don't think that you know more than me, because I have done it and you haven't, I have seen people who weren't religious and how their life changed after being religious

That is not a fact, that is doctrine. Don't be arrogant

It is a fact, and I don't think you can prove it isn't. if you can prove it isn't, you can then call me an arrogant.

My cats and dog worship an human created, abstract idea. Somehow I think not. How exactly do animals, plants and inamimate objects worship a deity?

What proves to you that human made god? Do you have any prove that god doesn't actually exist? No you don't, and you will never ever be able to prove it, no one really knows how (animals) exactly worship Allah, but that's what is written in Quran, and that's what we have to believe in.

These suicide bombers are deeply religious. They really believe in what they are doing is what Allah wants them to do. You saying they are hypocrites would offend them and their extremist teachers. It is very simple to them, they are right and everything else is wrong.

They are not religious, they understood things the wrong way, as I said, it is prohibited to KILL ARMY MEN unless you are at the battlefield, so killing civilians is extremely unacceptable in any way, this type of suicide is completely different to the one I am talking about that happens in Japan/European country, so you cant compare them to each otherﾂ…
The suicide bombers do not represent Islam, so they should be out of the discussion.

I know quite a few Chrstians, Sikhs, Buddhist, Hindus that would argue very strongly on that point.

You will never feel it unless you were a Muslim, so I except to hear something like that from you

Jesus, Moses, Isiah, and others would have called themselves Jews, not Muslims. The name and title was created by Mohammad. Don't call them Islamic prophets as if the are Islams property. They belong just as much to the Jews and Christians and by calling them 'Islamic' can be seen as very degrading to followers of the other monotheistic faiths. Just refer to them as the prophets.

I don't think it really matters? Islam is the only religion that says worship one god, and all the prophets that came into this world, their aim was just to tell people to worship one god only.

In other words it is open to your own ideas and expectations. Your own interpretation of how it is reads. The style and language it is written have changed over the past 1500 years.
It is this reason why Muslims will strap bombs on themselves, kill people and hate. You'll find the same problem within Judaism and Christianity

Yes, some people might understand it the way they want, and not the way god really wants (like what extremist do right now by killing their selves in the name of Islam) but you cant blame Islam here, the ones who should be blamed is the extremist for their stupidity , you have to use your brains, don't expect god will write things very clearly for you, there are things that is easily understandable in Quran, but there are things in Quran people might explain it in different ways than others, and that's a good thing not bad, that doesn't mean what was written in Quran is changed, it never changed, because god himself said, the Quran, and only Quran, is protected by god himself, no one will ever be able to edit it or change its words, you might ask me why god didn't do the same with the other 2 religions like Christianity and Jewish, I really don't know exactly, but I think its some kind of test to human beings, god doesn't want things to be simple for human beings, like making one religion only for the whole humanity, I think he did that because he doesn't want anyone to go to heaven "easily" (because heaven is way to good , it deserve you to suffer for it) , I know you wont be convinced about this, I know its hard to believe it, but this is a fact, and there is nothing we human beings can do about it, god wants things to go the way he wants, and no one can change it, maybe when going to heaven we will realize that life is supposed to be that hard, because heaven is worth every second you suffer in this life..
I know you live a life with a lot of problems, and everyone dose.

I live for knowledge and just for the hell of living

Knowledge? So what after knowledge? What if you couldn't seek knowledge? Like being sick, or poor? Or don't even feel like seeking knowledge? You don't seek knowledge all day and night, this is not a reason to live your life for because not everyone can do it, but if we are talking about praying to allah, everyone can do it, even the disabled ones can do it, but in a different easy ways, when you say "just the hell of living", it seems you just don't know what you are living for or you do not care to have a reason, this will lead you to depression sometimeﾂ…

The universe is a vast place and to say it was put here for just pathetic little humans is arrogance on the whole human race.

You really don't know, maybe god made it so big just to show his unlimited abilities to create things human beings aren't even able too simply imagine, it was put for the pathetic little humans, you think there are aliens living somewhere else? That's why the universe is too big? You cant tell me that I am an arrogant by not proving what you are saying, there Is nothing that proves the exist of aliens, it never have been mentioned in the quran, god made it so big mainly to give us human beings a massage that we should fear him and not even dare not to obey him.

If a large asteroid was to wipe us from the face of the planet the universe would not cry or shed a tear for us. Your God wouldn't shed a tear, because without us your God would cease to exist. I know we are smaller than a piece of dust on a piece of dust compared to the vast size and age of the universe. It might sound very nilistic, but that is my view.

So you are basically saying that human made god, but let me tell you something, if god didn't exist, we would have never existed as wellﾂ…
Never though how human were created from the first place? No one really knows, there are no theories unless one, and it is that god made us, that's it.

Yet I love life

You love your life? why? i am pretty sure you suffer in your life, how could love a place you suffer in it constantly? why wouldnt you love heaven istead? where you will never suffer

to breathe and look upon nature, but to me it is natural with no guiding force behind it.

what proves that there is no guiding force behind it? That's what you want to wish, it seems you just don't like to be controlled by god, that's why you deny his existence, you don't like to be controlled.

The universe is limitless and beyond anything you or I will ever know. I revel in it, but you like a comfort zone and need a God to exist for yourself and to explain life and the universe. You need God and your God needs you.

I need god, god doesn't need me, I revel in it too, but with knowing who made it and why it was made for, but you don't know who made it, you think it was made by itself, didn't you thought of how nature exist from the first place?

I might not agree with your views on religion and worship, but if they make you happy, then continue, but your circumstances do not apply to everyone else in the world.

It is a fact, it should be applied to everyone else, as a Muslim, I have to make people see the world the way I see it, that's what god asked me to do.

In my view if a God existed wouldn't it just be happy for a place for its creations to be happy in. Your happiness would be all it needed. Isn't that what a parent really wants for its children?

Yes, but not in this life, what's the point of creating humanity if all of them will go to heaven? He made it to test us, if we succeed we will go to heaven, if we failed, we will go to hell, plain and simple, you don't expect him to create us so all of us would go to heaven, I KNOW, no one, had, the choice to live this life, but there is nothing we can do about it, we exist to follow what god says, so we go to heaven, if we didn't exist, we would not go to heaven. Going to heaven is better than not to exist at all, even if it took us some great effort to do it. Heaven is worth it.
Remember, that if all the things I said are true, in judgment day it will be too late for you to be forgiven by god. Nonbelievers will suffer much more than Jewish and Christian people.
Its better to be wrong before death, than being wrong after death, if what I said isn't true and you believed in it, you would not lose anything, but if you didn't believe in it, you will lose everything, you only live this life for once, there is no other chance.
ﾂ"Wouldn't you rather believe and be wrong than not believe and be wrong?ﾂ"

filthydani, I'm not sure if you noticed, but I never mentioned Islam in my post, and neither did eemaan. Please don't make assumptions about how much I know or don't know about Islam. I saw an interesting philosophical question and decided to respond to it.

You generally meant religion, I know you didn't mean Islam specifically but I just wanted to show you that Islam doesn't limit individual creativity or limit the person for one purpose only. Yes, you mainly live to worship allah, but in different ways, like praying, fasting, helping people..etc

As another interesting point about zakkah, which I would call the pillar of charity. While I like that Islam integrates direct charity (which I believe is not specifically money) into its system of faith, to say that it "forces" its followers to give money away sounds like charity is not a virtue of a good muslim, but a duty foisted upon followers. Perhaps this was just a poor choice of words?

zakkah is essential, just like praying and fasting, praying doesn't mean a virtue of a good Muslim, you are forced to pray, as well as doing zakkah.

I'm going to try to be as polite as possible, but your insight into why Japan's suicide is high isn't very.........well insightful. Your reasoning,
"people in Japan might get extremely bored because they don't have a worthy reason to live their life for, that why they have high suicide rates."
How did you even come to this conclusion? It clearly shows you haven't taken several things into consideration. Did you know that in Japan, suicide isn't really seen in a horrible light. But you may not understand this because you come from a culture that condems suicide.

Its pretty obvious, all religious people never get bored or desperate or feel worthless, no one would kill himself unless he felt desperate and worthless, you might not see it like that, simply because you are not religious, so how would you know if my conclusion is wrong or right?
I know samurais kill themselves if they lost or for some other reasons I don't really know, but no one has the right to kill himself, because this body that you kill isn't yours even if its your own body, its for god.

Another thing, you said that if you weren't a Muslim you would have had suicidal thoughts? Now, can I assume that you may feel this way about other issues (like stealing, lying, cheating) if you weren't a Muslim do you think you would have gone out and committed those acts?

No I wouldn't, the soul in its original form isn't supposed to do bad things like stealing, lying or cheating, I would have suicidal thoughts if I didn't see any worthy reason to live this life for, I mean why would I accept to suffer constantly in this life for nothing? (you have to admit, that everyone in this life is suffering, and no one is living a world with no problems)
For what would I do that? Nothing? I would rather kill my self than feeling pain for nothing, I would feel worthless, if you would live to make money for example, and then you become rich, what would I live for after that? If I want to be famous, then after being famous, what's after that? I am rich and famous, so what? I am still bored! All my goals in this life would be pointless, I would feel worthless and I would kill my self at the end.

Forget the fact that you're an individual that has a mind and a conscious, just have your religion tell you what's right and wrong.
And I'm under the impression that if Japan follows Islam, everything will be just peachy, right? You think Islam is the answer to social problems?

Yes Islam is the answer; you see the rape rate in Arabian countries is extremely low comparing to Japan or USA or European countries, suicidal rate is low, depression rate is low as well, women in Arabian countries don't wear mini skirts like in japan/usa, they wear "hijab", hijab is meant to protect people and the society, you see the AIDS rate in Muslim countries is extremely low, that is what I am talking about, I am taking about protection, in Arab countries men don't have sex unless they get married, this is protection.This is what Islam wants. Islam wants your safety and protection.

 

[RockLee]

If you just come to JREF to spread the word about Islam, I'm afraid you're on the wrong forum.

 

[Mycernius]

Reading your lengthy post has made my draw up some conclusions.
You don't know anything beyond Doctrine of Islam. You don't have any idea of its history, its development and were the myths came from that make up Islam. For example the story of Noah comes from Assyrian/Babylonian myth, not from Jewish sources. You seem to live a blinkered life in which anything that does not relate to your religion must be wrong and not worthy of a logical discusion. You are guilty of Zanna with your idea of how your God wants you to worship it. You have given Allah all the frailities of human nature. All your posts have shown Allah to be needful, bullying, vain, jealous and self-centred with phrase like "he orders, he needs", yet this goes against the original concept of Allah when Mohammad and those before him wrote down scripture. In the koran Allah is more distant and impersonal than you are portraying him. Muhammad did not write the Koran so that every man, woman and child in the world should become Muslim. He wrote it as scripture for the Arab people. God gave Jews their scripture for their way of life and the same for Christians. If he had knowledge of Buddhists and Hindus he would have said that God had revealved scripture in their teaching for their way of life. Jews and Christians are not Infidels, or misguided followers of God. They just follow the same God, but in a slightly different way than Mulsims. That was Allahs intention as far as Muhammad was concerned. You seem to love your faith, but have no idea on the historical comcepts and forces that have made it the type you worship. You may, in fact you probably do, hotly deny this, but the way you post and argue lead me to this conclusion

it is a fact, that people who don't worship Allah are worthless, you will only realize that when you are a Muslim and have a strong relation ship with Allah, even Muslims who actually don't pray are worthless,

That is not a fact, that is doctrine. Don't be arrogant

It is a fact, and I don't think you can prove it isn't. if you can prove it isn't, you can then call me an arrogant.

It is doctrine, not a fact. Facts relies on hard evidence, not what people think. Is is not a FACT that non-muslims are worthless, but it is an idea that some Muslims like to put about to make themselves feel superior to others. That is arrogance and quite a isolationists doctrine.

there are 1.6 million Muslim around the worldﾂ…

Figure I found show the following:
Christians - 2 039 million
Muslims - 1 226 million
Hinduism - 828 million
Non-religious - 775 million
Chinese folk religions - 390 million
Buddhists - 364 million
Tribal religions - 232 million
Atheists - 150 million
New religions - 103 million
Sikhs - 23.8 million
Jews - 14.5 million
Spiritism - 12.6 million
Baha'i Faith - 7.4 million
Confucianism - 6.3 million
Jainism - 4.3 million
Zoroastrianism - 2.7 million
Shinto - 2.7 million
Taoism - 2.7 million
Other Various Various - 1.1 million
So are you telling me that over 2000 million Christians are wrong in their worship? It is almost double the numbers for Islam, yet they would use exactly the same arguements that you use for saying their faith is the true faith. What is more interesting is the the fact that 775 million people identify themselves as non-relgious. That is 12% of the world population. They seem to be happy, along with the 150 million atheists in the world. As ideas go, atheism in its modern sense is only about 200 years old, yet it now represents 2% of the world population. Might sound small, but from little acorns.

All the scientific evidences prove what is written in Quran is trueﾂ…
Islam Guide: The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html

I've seen these type of sites before and are often trotted out by the highly religious. Most of the so called facts are people reading things into passages that do not really mean that or stating facts that were already known before they were mentioned in the Koran/Bible/Torah/Talmud. They are proganda sites made to try and prove God and his plan. You'll probably trot out a few sites were people have seen the name Allah written in stars constellations, shapes in seeds, the tubes of the lungs or the fingers when held up in a particular way show 'Allah is great' if you stand 50 metres away.
You want to think that my life is worthless and I am living in a state of denial, then so be it. You live in your zone of comfort, but think if everyone lived in that comfort zone we would still be living in caves, afraid of the dark.
One more question. I acknowledge I cannot prove the existance or non-existance of God, but neither can you, yet I feel deep down in what passes for my soul or my being that God does not exist. The questions comes down to this: What existed before God? Who created God? Where does God come from?

 

[Ma Cherie]

filthydani:

Oh bravo, bravo! *starts applauding*
You think Islam is the answer to the world's problems, you think that men in Muslim countries only have sex if they're married. Oh wow! That's very navie of you to even think this way.
Well I would say that your conclusion about people committing suicide because they're feeling worthless is wrong. There are many factors as to why people committ suicide.

* Change: Suicide is way to change how a person feels or what is happening in their life or at the moment.

* Choice: To assert or make a choice during circumstances in which there are no choices or important choices are being taken away.

* Control: The suicidal act is meant to stop the person's behavior, to control events or to effect some change in others.

* Self Punishment: Suicidal behavior is a means to relieve guilt or punish the person for their actions.

* Punish Others: The suicidal act is intended to inflict harm or punishment on others.

* Psychotic Illness: The suicidal act is the result of strange and bizarre beliefs that are caused by a mental illness or a severe medical problem.

There's more where this came from, but nothing here about feeling "worthless" or "bored" If anything, feeling worthless is just a symptom of someone who is suicidal.

 

[eemaan]

Hi again, I meant lifes purpose is so much more than a pens or whatever. I never said a person should be able to answer this question in a moment, but it is a question which seriously requires thought. But when people are asked such a question, they tend to shrug it off like something that doesn't matter.
"Dunno, pass the peas"

 

[nice gaijin]

without getting too involved in the other issues at hand here..

You generally meant religion, I know you didn't mean Islam specifically but I just wanted to show you that Islam doesn't limit individual creativity or limit the person for one purpose only. Yes, you mainly live to worship allah, but in different ways, like praying, fasting, helping people..etc

I was actually taking it out of all religious context; when I said I was responding to a philosophical question, I meant it withtout any religious pretense. I suppose that it was a bit off-topic, so I'll just let it drop.

zakkah is essential, just like praying and fasting, praying doesn't mean a virtue of a good Muslim, you are forced to pray, as well as doing zakkah.

I was under the impression that the five pillars are essential/mandatory, but that zakkah was dependant upon the ability one has to give to others. The idea is that you must show compassion and charity for others, not that you have to give a certain percentage of your earnings as an indirect form of tithings. That sounds more like a membership fee; it sucks all the joy out of giving for the sake of charity. A religion that forces you to do *this* and *that* doesn't sound terribly appealing to me.

 

[filthydani]

If you just come to JREF to spread the word about Islam, I'm afraid you're on the wrong forum.

You should see what made me start writing this from the first place; I am here to defend Islam not to "spread" it. Even thought I don't know what's the problem if I tried to spread it, why do you care?

Reading your lengthy post has made my draw up some conclusions.
You don't know anything beyond Doctrine of Islam.

Islam taught us everything we need to know, at least the basics, of living this live properly, if Islam taught me what I need to know, I don't think I should know anything else. I am not saying we just should not evolve in other aspects like technology or anything else , but I am talking about manners, protection of the society, protection of your self, that is why god wont make another religion after Islam, because it has everything a human being needs to know, Mohammed(PBUH) is the last prophet from god.

You don't have any idea of its history, its development and were the myths came from that make up Islam. For example the story of Noah comes from Assyrian/Babylonian myth, not from Jewish sources.

Everything you think is a myth in Islam, thats what you want it to be, there is nothing you can prove that the Noah history is just a myth, it happened, and every religion like Christianity, Jewish had it.

You seem to live a blinkered life in which anything that does not relate to your religion must be wrong and not worthy of a logical discusion. You are guilty of Zanna with your idea of how your God wants you to worship it.

Islam relates to everything in this life, that's why it's the last religion from god. You might ask me why didn't he did that in the first religion like the Jewish religion, but as I said before, having just one religion would make things pretty easy, of course there are other reasons too I or anyone else might just don't know about them but god only knows..
You cant have sex with anyone you want just like that, there is something called dignity, I wonder if atheist care about things like dignity, people who sell their bodies don't deserve to get respected, god wants the society to be protected, that's why we should get married and not do sinful things like doing zanna. So god wants to live the way HE wants just for MY protection.

You have given Allah all the frailities of human nature. All your posts have shown Allah to be needful, bullying, vain, jealous and self-centred with phrase like "he orders, he needs", yet this goes against the original concept of Allah when Mohammad and those before him wrote down scripture. In the koran Allah is more distant and impersonal than you are portraying him. Muhammad did not write the Koran so that every man, woman and child in the world should become Muslim. He wrote it as scripture for the Arab people. God gave Jews their scripture for their way of life and the same for Christians. If he had knowledge of Buddhists and Hindus he would have said that God had revealved scripture in their teaching for their way of life. Jews and Christians are not Infidels, or misguided followers of God. They just follow the same God, but in a slightly different way than Mulsims. That was Allahs intention as far as Muhammad was concerned. You seem to love your faith, but have no idea on the historical comcepts and forces that have made it the type you worship. You may, in fact you probably do, hotly deny this, but the way you post and argue lead me to this conclusion

This again proves you don't know what is Islam, Islam is made for the whole humanity not only for the Arab people, Christianity and Jewish wasn't meant to be for some groups of people only, god made the third religion because people didn't understand the first 2 religions the way its supposed to be, for example in Christianity they think Jesus is god which he isn't, that's why god had to make a third final religion to lead people to worship Allah alone. Jewish and Christians are actually infidelsﾂ…

It is doctrine, not a fact. Facts relies on hard evidence, not what people think. Is is not a FACT that non-muslims are worthless, but it is an idea that some Muslims like to put about to make themselves feel superior to others. That is arrogance and quite a isolationists doctrine.

No, it is not to make me feel superior to others at all, I actually don't care about others so much so I make myself superior to them, I only care for myself, and how god sees me, no how people see me.

So are you telling me that over 2000 million Christians are wrong in their worship? It is almost double the numbers for Islam, yet they would use exactly the same arguements that you use for saying their faith is the true faith.

They would not use the exactly same arguments, they would say Jesus is god, we say Jesus is a prophet, we say there is only one god and they don't say that. Heaven is described very detailed in Islam if you compare it too Christianity and the Jewish religion, there are a lot of detailed formation in Islam than the other religions.

What is more interesting is the the fact that 775 million people identify themselves as non-relgious. That is 12% of the world population. They seem to be happy, along with the 150 million atheists in the world. As ideas go, atheism in its modern sense is only about 200 years old, yet it now represents 2% of the world population. Might sound small, but from little acorns

You just assume that they are happy, as I said, no one is living a life with out any problems, you have to admit to that point, heaven dose not exist in this life. No one is actually happy or fully satisfied in this life.

I've seen these type of sites before and are often trotted out by the highly religious. Most of the so called facts are people reading things into passages that do not really mean that or stating facts that were already known before they were mentioned in the Koran/Bible/Torah/Talmud. They are proganda sites made to try and prove God and his plan. You'll probably trot out a few sites were people have seen the name Allah written in stars constellations, shapes in seeds, the tubes of the lungs or the fingers when held up in a particular way show 'Allah is great' if you stand 50 metres away.

As an atheist, its expected for you to call them propaganda, the only way to know if its true or not, is to become a real scientist and understand what is written in Quran exactly, I know a lot of famous scientists who became Muslims just by the evidence that was written in Quran or hadith from 1400 years ago.

You want to think that my life is worthless and I am living in a state of denial, then so be it. You live in your zone of comfort, but think if everyone lived in that comfort zone we would still be living in caves, afraid of the dark.

What makes you think that believing in Allah will make me live in caves and be afraid of the dark?

One more question. I acknowledge I cannot prove the existance or non-existance of God, but neither can you, yet I feel deep down in what passes for my soul or my being that God does not exist. The questions comes down to this: What existed before God? Who created God? Where does God come from?

As I said before, I can never physically prove the existence of god, if I did that, everyone would be religious by now and they would go to heaven very easily, what's the point of making hell in that case?
Who created god? Hmm do we really have to know? Even if I answered you X/Z/W created god, you would ask me then who created X/Z/W, it will be a never ending question.
God wasn't made. God made every thing. This is a simple answer, but that's all I can say. If there was something that made god, we would see a lot of differences, for example if there were 2 gods, they might just not get along with each other.

Oh bravo, bravo! *starts applauding*
You think Islam is the answer to the world's problems, you think that men in Muslim countries only have sex if they're married. Oh wow! That's very navie of you to even think this way.

Its very naive from you to expect all Muslim people are actually religious.

Well I would say that your conclusion about people committing suicide because they're feeling worthless is wrong. There are many factors as to why people committ suicide.
* Change: Suicide is way to change how a person feels or what is happening in their life or at the moment.
* Choice: To assert or make a choice during circumstances in which there are no choices or important choices are being taken away.
* Control: The suicidal act is meant to stop the person's behavior, to control events or to effect some change in others.
* Self Punishment: Suicidal behavior is a means to relieve guilt or punish the person for their actions.
* Punish Others: The suicidal act is intended to inflict harm or punishment on others.
* Psychotic Illness: The suicidal act is the result of strange and bizarre beliefs that are caused by a mental illness or a severe medical problem.
There's more where this came from, but nothing here about feeling "worthless" or "bored" If anything, feeling worthless is just a symptom of someone who is suicidal.

Hmmm, so you think depression has nothing to do about suicidal? And you are calling me naive?
No one has the right, to kill himself, for any reason, simply because your own body isn't yours, if for the creator. Allah.

 

[filthydani]

I was under the impression that the five pillars are essential/mandatory, but that zakkah was dependant upon the ability one has to give to others. The idea is that you must show compassion and charity for others, not that you have to give a certain percentage of your earnings as an indirect form of tithings. That sounds more like a membership fee; it sucks all the joy out of giving for the sake of charity.

Actually there are four pillars that are dependant upon the ability, like fasting, if you are sick you can not fast, if you are disabled, you can pray in very easy way but you have to pray, if you cant do the hajj or Pilgrimage from poverty, then you are not forced to do it, The most important thing is the first pillar and it is to believe that Allah is the only god, and Mohammed is his messenger.

A religion that forces you to do *this* and *that* doesn't sound terribly appealing to me.

Well, there is nothing bad with forcing people to do things that will be good for them in life and after life. God knows better than us, so we just need to follow him even without thinking why, simply because he knows better than us.

 

[leonmarino]

I don't mean to interrupt, but where is this thread heading? It has totally lost its connection to Japan, and for this reason this discussion should be stopped.

I am just saying this as a while ago there was a problem with another thread that had nothing to do with Japan (the "Euro-thread" if someone remembers that one) which was moved/deleted immediately. I don't mind religous discussions, on the contrary, I love 'em, but if this forum is to be managed consistently, this thread should be stopped.

ﾆ弛ﾆ辰ﾆ弛ﾆ辰窶堋ｫﾂ〜窶堙ｱﾂ！

 

[Mycernius]

Everything you think is a myth in Islam, thats what you want it to be, there is nothing you can prove that the Noah history is just a myth, it happened, and every religion like Christianity, Jewish had it.

Noah is a myth from older sources. Read the Epic of Gilagamesh, written before Judaism, and you will find the origin of the myth of Noah, unless you really believe the earth to be no older than 8000 years. All ideas that are found in the Koran/Bible etc can be found in older MYTHOLOGICAL sources. This is real history, not one made up by religious zealots.

This again proves you don't know what is Islam, Islam is made for the whole humanity not only for the Arab people, Christianity and Jewish wasn't meant to be for some groups of people only, god made the third religion because people didn't understand the first 2 religions the way its supposed to be, for example in Christianity they think Jesus is god which he isn't, that's why god had to make a third final religion to lead people to worship Allah alone. Jewish and Christians are actually infidelsﾂ…

This proves my point that you again show ignorance about your own religion and others. Christians and Jews are not infidels, not by Mohammads standards. To him they worshipped the same God, but in ways that suited their culture. Your ideas actually go against the original teaching of the Prophet Muhammad. In the first centruy of Muhammads death coversion was not encouraged, and actually forbidden by law. Jews and Christians are of the book (Ahl al-kitah) and were granted the right of Dhimmis as a protected minority groups. The reason was that Muslims at the time believed that Islam was for the Arabs as Judaism was for the sons of Jacob. This is real history, fact, not some made up thing. If you don't want to read or learn about the truth, instead hide in ignorance and falsehoods, so be it. Your arguements are showing Islam to be a narrowminded, bigoted faith and you are not doing any favours to Islam at all. In truth Islam was founded as a peaceful, tolerant religion that could exist with other religions because the teachings of God could be found in their own holy writings. People like are trying to turn it into a crusading religion that destroys anything that is not of its faith.

what's the point of making hell in that case?

Hell is a Christian concept that Islam has adopted. No hell in Judaism.

God wasn't made. God made every thing. This is a simple answer, but that's all I can say. If there was something that made god, we would see a lot of differences, for example if there were 2 gods, they might just not get along with each other.

They don't in some cases. That is what Exodus is about, the destruction of another Gods faith, Baal, for YHWH. But you will find in other religions and myths that tthere might be many Gods they do get on with each other, or an opposite is needed to balance out the others nature. That is what Satan is for, to balance the good of God.
I should also point out the concept of the creation of something from nothing is another new idea. Early Jews didn't believe that YHWH made the universe. It existed in a state of Chaos before God existed. All God did was bring order to it. God was a created by a sense of order in the nature of Chaos. In other words the universe and its nature created God. Christians didn't even fully accept the idea of the creation of something from nothing until about 341AD at the council of Nicae.
I really feel as if I am wasting my time with you. Your entire life revolves around an almost extreme idea of Islam. You won't change it because you do not wish to listen to the real truth and the real facts about your own religion, let alone others.

 

[Mycernius]

I don't mean to interrupt, but where is this thread heading? It has totally lost its connection to Japan, and for this reason this discussion should be stopped.
I am just saying this as a while ago there was a problem with another thread that had nothing to do with Japan (the "Euro-thread" if someone remembers that one) which was moved/deleted immediately. I don't mind religous discussions, on the contrary, I love 'em, but if this forum is to be managed consistently, this thread should be stopped.
ﾆ弛ﾆ辰ﾆ弛ﾆ辰窶堋ｫﾂ〜窶堙ｱﾂ！

Good point and I am just as guilty as the next man. I consider myself slapped on the wrist.
Let us get back to the original subject of the thread

 

[Mars Man]

So with that, if I may people:

While I appreciate the effort and heart in the above writings, filthydani, I can see that the 'rush' which has entangled, involved, and carried your points of argument, has well blown the discussion out of viewability. Some who have taken up points against your position have followed suit.

Here I would like to point out, as I had in post number 156 on page 7, that the original OP has long been lost--that is the original theme had no more power over the discussion at that point basically.

Then, filthydani posted at number 157 something to the tune of Islam will save Japan. My proposition is that this be the theme of this thread's present life. I would suggest that those taking up the 'PRO' side provide arguments--in detail, with resource bibliographies (as much as possible) and without rushing or overcrowding each individual point or sub-point to a major point) and those in the 'CON' camp do the same.

ONE MAJOR thing to be kept in mind by all parties, as should always be the case in religiously based discussions (and this is simply my opinion and heartfelt suggestion, no command-like thing--of course) is that there is no need to make efforts to convence or convert those of another understanding but simply to present each own's and let the reasoning reach their own conclusions.

Posts which are too long are easy in this field--believe me, I have done it enough--so maybe breaking them down into smaller bites might be enough.
Eemaan san, yes I do agree with that last statement of yours--it's sad that so many people are so tangled up in the moment of modern life that they can't see the 'forest for the trees'--so to speak.

 

[Davey]

Agree with Leon, where is this thread heading! I don't feel like closing this thread, but if it is going to turn all about Islam, instead of Islam in Japan it will be closed!!!

So you guys with the LONG LONG LONG posts please get back on topic!!!

 

[Ma Cherie]

Yeah, this thread is getting off topic. Sorry about that. :sorry: No sense in agruing with someone whose is like a brick.

 

[Mycernius]

Mars Man! Good to see you back

Then, filthydani posted at number 157 something to the tune of Islam will save Japan. My proposition is that this be the theme of this thread's present life. I would suggest that those taking up the 'PRO' side provide arguments--in detail, with resource bibliographies (as much as possible) and without rushing or overcrowding each individual point or sub-point to a major point) and those in the 'CON' camp do the same.

As MM mentioned the OP has long gone and the original idea was why Japan had sided with the US on the war in Iraq. That eventually ended up with a Islam vs Christian thought (Sound Roman, ne?). I agree with MM on how the thread ought to get back on track with how Islam might affect Japan, either positively or negatively.

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks, Mycernius, for the warm greetings. I am back for now, pending. . .

 

[filthydani]

Dear filthydani,
You have received a warning at Japan Forum.
Islam the beacon of light in Japan
Reason:
-------
Insulted Other Member(s)
Please stop your crusade on spreading Islam, and as if your religion is THE superior religion. If you won't stop, I'll have to ban you.
Thank you!

Insulting other members? Ummm. it seems you have the right to say whatever you want about Islam, but I don't have the right to explain my opinions and views like you do.
I am not writing this to convince you to be a Muslim, I am just here to discuss with you how I see Islam, and how you see Islam, that's the whole point, it seems Mr. Rocklee doesn't understand that.

 

[Mycernius]

This is not a thread for bringing out problems you have with members. Keep it to private messaging or you will banned. That is a warning

 

[RockLee]

Check the PM I sent you filthydani.

 

[filthydani]

This is not a thread for bringing out problems you have with members. Keep it to private messaging or you will banned. That is a warning

I had to bring it here to know if i am allowed to reply to what you said or not, i had to let people see that I am not allowed to express my opinion.

It's pretty funny when you take some quotes from my posts and its not allowed for me to reply back or else I get banned....

 

[RockLee]

You can't discuss pm related things in the thread for crying out loud. You are free to reply to his posts. But refrain from "preaching" about how good Islam is, and how you think we are all sinners and infidels. Got it?

 

[filthydani]

You can't discuss pm related things in the thread for crying out loud

The PM was related to this thread, and I had to make this clear to the others that my opinions aren't allowed to be expressed freely like yours. why are you afraid to let people see how you think of my opinions?

You are free to reply to his posts. But refrain from "preaching" about how good Islam is, and how you think we are all sinners and infidels. Got it?

Are you saying that atheists aren't infidels? Well, if atheists aren't infidels, then who do you think are infidels?

 

[Mars Man]

God saves Japan by Islam!

This being the theme (and please do allow [or forgive] me the right to just up and do this on my own--though I'd like to think, at heart, that I do have every other truely active participant's agreement) I would like to ask firstly, filthydani san, that you present a kind of abstract on the 'for what reasons' of the above thesis. I think that would be a good place to start. (please keep in mind that it would be better to keep it detailed, supported by resource material [for example the Quran, books, newspaper or magazine articles, etc.] and to the point--AND short. . . please)

I look forward to hearing what you have to say, and trust that you are willing and capable of keeping it academic in nature; thanks !!

 

[nice gaijin]

Infidel: a person who does not believe in your particular religion, denomination or religious tradition. Similar to "Unbeliever" but more of a "snarl" word.

I find it a rather repugnant word, and would prefer that it not enter this discussion.

filthydani, private messages are intended to be private, which is why it would behoove you to respect a private matter by not trying to air out your dirty laundry in public, so to speak. If you have an issue with another member or a moderator, a public thread is not the place for your dispute.

Sorry for the off-topic comments. To get back to the issue at hand, is anyone here a Japanese muslim, or know any personally? I'd like to know what their views on this are.