Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

[Void]

random comments

to Mars Man sama

it again becomes clear that what is most needed is an education program to
help all peoples there learn that the land doesn't belong to anyone !

may i ask stupid question(the most important to me here): people where? in the Jordan river area? about this particualar piece of land? or people all over the world about any piece of land?

The next step would be to remove borders and walls all the while having the local seats of government relinquish some degree of power to the United Nations.

to my not so humble opinion UN turned into toothless and impotent organisation quite a time ago... it`s rather a "(p/m)uppet show" by now. World needs its (UN`s) complete reengineering or absolutely new institution with revised programs and methods

I would strongly argue, again, that as we discuss what will amount to middle
ground, we will have to set 'history' aside, as that can never clear up the
future possibles.

i am sorry, but this is nearly impossible (like to stop the ocean fro rushing to the shore). Today doesn`t come from nowhere, it come from the past which is history. And today is part of the history for tomorrow. If we will not learn
lessons of the history today we`re bound to repeat same mistakes tomorrow
(on either side)

--------------------------
to centrajapan

Israel-Palestine conflict is very easy to solve. Israel pulls back to 1967
borders. Palestine gets East Jerusalem as their capital give freedom to the
Palestinians in return a normalisation to Israel by all Arab countries.

i think this is a greate oversimplification of the issue. Even if such withdrawval would be possible, it`d just add more fuel to the current fire

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to RegDunlap

The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to.
It's called "Jordan".

very popular proposal, but somehow jordanians don`t consider themselves as
palestinians. And many palestinians want to return to their OWN homes they were once expelled from. Want as badly as jewish people coming to the Palestine at the beginning of XX century long before 1948

It is easy to forget that the plight ofthe Palestinians has more to do with
their fellow Arabs than with the Israelis. After all, it was the Arab League
that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, attempted to exterminate every Jew
there, and encouraged the Palestinians to leaveso that the slaughter would
be easier. In the time since, the Palestinians have been kept caged up by
their "brothers" in religion and culture. Refused rights and citizenship,
denied employment, and kept in squalor.

true to some extent, but just to some. Arab League gets its profit from current palestinian case and never attempted too much to solve the problem. Palestinians ran away partluy because of this brotherly lie, partly because of national cleansing (jewish expansion wasn`t all white and fluffy, i`ll bring links later)

To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the
stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area.

it might be a surprise for you but judaism is quite radical also. And by the way, what is the instrument of cleansing %) (besides education offered by MM and some arabian bloggers. again - links later)?

---------------------------

With this educational program I am speaking of...and I will life a finger in
trying to deny that it's an idea WELL ahead of its time...will right from the
start, begin tackling this 'we' .vs. 'they' mentality. That is the starting
point. There is no is no they, only 'we,' you see?!!

According to Wallerstein current world system is in a stage of deep crisis. Besides, due to the technological development our world becomes much smaller than we tend to think, but the gaps grow bigger and cause the tragic eruptions. You can`t solve the problem by trying to give "we" for just israelis and palestinians. The whole world devided into "us" and "them" (one don`t have to go far, just read jref forum) and the remedy therefore must be global


will return to the subject later

 

[Mars Man]

Void sama, this is the problem, you see. What you have said, is, in some overtones of the situation and in some respects of my earlier posts, is correct.

The UN is toothless because the governments of the world are selfish. The borders are persistent because the national groups are small-minded. AND yes, as I had tried to spell out (and found error in my English, even) this is an idea that is so ahead of its time that we can call it 'impossible.'

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.

To drag any historical factor up is a waste of time.

 

[centrajapan]

No, they arent. I dont recall blacks having voting rights and members of parliament in either of those countries.

You see, Palestinians living in Palestine have no power to choose their own destiniy. Just as with African Americans back in the days when they were slvaes. Surely there were more powerful people within the American African slaves. They were leaders but still slaves. The same with Palestine. You have Arafat who was a leader. But a leader of what? Palestinians were dnied basic human rights they had no country. You could compare it to a Bantustant in former South Africa.

Just curious. Do you support oppression?

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.

This is over simplifying things. It borders stupidity. Israel gives freedom to Palestine in return a normalisation of all Arab countries to Israel. Its very straight forward. Not difficult to understand.

The problem with is that you don't know "why" there is a conlfict. To solve a problem one has to understand the reasons for the problem to be able to solve the problem.

 

[Mars Man]

Just curious. Do you support oppression?

I don't see how this would lead to any conclusion or point on the discussion that should be at hand here. Again, we have to look forward, not backward. Also comparisions as to what may have been for a certain group of people at some time in the past, towards what possibly, or are indeed for a certain group now, are meaningless when it comes to working for a compromise for now...as in near future.

There is no need to compare or search out historical matters. That should be clear enough !

 

[Void]

...
AND yes, as I had tried to spell out (and found error in my English, even) this is an idea that is so ahead of its time that we can call it 'impossible.'

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.
To drag any historical factor up is a waste of time.

the idea might not be ahead of time. As i said this time is shaped today. I just view th ME problem at different angle, and think that the scope of solution must be wider (but, probably, no less idealistic )

Waste or not depends on the purpose of rasing "historical arguements"

 

[RegDunlap]

To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.

What you seem to be calling for is the eradication of religion from the face of human culture. A pretty far fetched concept, particularly in an area that is home to THREE great religions.

As for the "right of return", does that ALSO include a "right of return" for the more than half a million Jews who were expelled from various Arab/Muslimcountries in the wake of the1948 war? Can they go home too, and freely practice their faith?

 

[Void]

What you seem to be calling for is the eradication of religion from the face of human culture. A pretty far fetched concept, particularly in an area that is home to THREE great religions.

as well as eradication of politics and current economic concepts altogether with religion for the sake of building new religion, after all we are just humans

 

[centrajapan]

Why not take the time to see exactly what 'education' that Palestinian kids get in Gaza and the west bank? Shocking

What Israelis are doing to not only to the kids in Gaza but the entire people is even more shocking. Thats the reason why people become extreme. Oppression is not an answer. Treat humans humanly and not like animals.

Let me quote Nelson Mandela.

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established "normally" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

 

[Mars Man]

Yes, you (RegDunlap san) are correct there regarding the religous stance. You are not correct regarding the rigjht of return, unless I am taking on a matter totally not addressable to my position, however, because there is nothing to return...

I will defend my position for the invalidity of historical arguments by showing the never ending resorting to past historical states.

As the most recent issue of Science has reported on, in that general area, there are a number of spots which give us substantial evidence of give and take fighting as early as 6000 years ago !! We have no choice but to put history aside. It will be much more of a burden than help.

I will admit, however, that many people would not be able to clear that hurdle.

 

[pugtm]

whoever proposed the idea that there is no them and us there is only us is wrong beyond beleif. there is a them and an us and they are two separate groups and jews take great pride in that. it is wrong to make no distinction because that lowers what we have done and minimizes it. also Palestinians in israel are treated far better than any muslims in their own country. they even have memebers in our parliment. does iran have female memebers of parliment or jewish??

 

[centrajapan]

also Palestinians in israel are treated far better than any muslims in their own country. they even have memebers in our parliment. does iran have female memebers of parliment or jewish??

This is not true. Palestinians in Israel face severe discrimination. Besides no Arab country was made on the expense of the Palestinians. If you take a stance against racial discrimination and oppression then Israel should be no different. If Israel cared so much about the Palestinians then why not give all of them Israeli passports or atleast give the Palestinians in the occupied territories freedom?

Israel treat the Palestinains worse than any Muslim country in the world because they took away land cleansed that land free from Palestinians and then caged them and now are placing them in Bantustants while cleansing more land on a daily basis.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Separation between church and state could help this area achieve some level of stability in ALL the Middle Eastern countries, and for all countries as a matter of fact.

 

[pugtm]

possible but unlikely to happen can you imagine irans leaders allowing democracy or saudi arabia or yemen? i certainly can't. at least not anytime soon. which is why America should support those elements in those countries that are trying to overthrow those governments.

 

[Haruspex]

I'll go further, everyone should contribute to getting rid of theocracy.

 

[Goldiegirl]

One big reason there will be no peace is the fact the Muslim based countries want to not just get rid of the Jews but to annihilate them and clear them not just from the land but from existing at all. The rest of us non-Muslims are merely tolerated. The goal is to change everybody over to their religion. That has to stop in order for there to peace. Every human has the right to chose what religion they want to be, I don't need to be converted to anything to find my own peace.

 

[Mycernius]

I am locking this thread for a while and give you all a while to calm down and reflect on what has been said. This is degenerating into an attack on a personal basis. Please keep it civil, and I also suggest a little research and less knee jerk reaction is required.

 

[Mycernius]

I am re-opening this thread. If it degenerates into a mud slinging match again it will be locked for good and members will recieve infractions for their behaviour. You have be warned.

 

[Hezam]

which is why America should support those elements in those countries that are trying to overthrow those governments

you mean Arerica should support the terrorism !!

once they said we must to fight the terrorists and now you said America should support them !!


I am wondeing !!

 

[Haruspex]

America is supporting the rebels, not the terrorists.

 

[centrajapan]

A quote by one of the most respected persons of this century. Nelson Mandela.

Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.....Palestine is one of the great moral causes of our time

Every peace initiative since 1967 has had UN Resolution 242 as the basis which is withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.

This resolution was unanimously adopted by the UN Security Council. Including USA. During the relatively peaceful 90s. Arafat agreed to make a state of Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem according to the 1967 borders. What does Israel do? They double the amount of settlements in the Occupied Territories.

I am no expert on international law. However this means that every single settlement in the Occupied Territories is against international law. Israel is on a daily basis confiscating more and more land far into the West Bank. What Israel is doing is. For instance say there is a Palestinian farmer. One day the Israel government declares this land to be Israel's land. They basically take it away and declare the property "state land"

The settlements are then connected with high ways to Israel proper while it traps the Palestinians between the settlements and the walls making life for them miserable.

While US agreed that Israel should go back to 1967 borders they keep on funding Israel to maintain the occupation. The longest occupation in this world btw. No people likes to be occupied by a foreign power. Including the Palestinians.

 

[RegDunlap]

Mandela was an idiot. You do yourself no favours by quoting him, Centra.

 

[Haruspex]

I wouldn't put it that harshly... but let us admit, Mandela would support the underdog in pretty much any situation without even thinking. Without a guess about whats going on.

 

[centrajapan]

Mandela was an idiot.

Well, I hope South Africa reintroduce the apartheid system. It was such a great system wasn't it?

Jimmy Carter compared Israel's policy to be worse than the apartheid.

When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...ontrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

 

[RegDunlap]

What I said about Mandela? Double it and add sauce for Dhimmi Carter.

So,Centra,do Jews also have the "right of return"? Can they go back to the countries where they used to live, like Morocco or Iran or Libya,

Nearly one million people in total.

 

[centrajapan]

No one is saying that every Israeli Jew to go back to whereever they came from. So I am not sure why you bring this up. The reality is. There has been a wide recognition among basically every UN member that Israel pulls back to the 1967 borders according to international law. Once Israel goes back to the internationally agreed borders Palestinians are ready to naromalise their relationship with Israel together with every Arab country.

Israel does not have the law on their side. It is actually very easy to solve this conflict had it not been for Israel ignoring every single UN resolution and respected international law.