How to get past the basics

Ah, alright then :)

And I'm honestly sorry for misrepresenting you, but that was actually how I read your posts and was not actually intended as an attack on you (though I admit I phrased it like that because I did not agree with what I thought you said).

There's probably some disconnect here between what you want to say and what I think you're saying and we'd probably end up agreeing on quite a few points if we actually understood each other, I feel.
 
I totally agree that that is the best way as well. However, tests hardly ever reflect individual taste.
 
I think people underestimate the vocabulary needed to read unhindered, without dictionary, in japanese. Kanji is, in comparison, the least time consuming part to learn.
I know around 17 000 words in japanese at the moment, maybe more, and I have to use a dictionary constantly, sometimes maybe 10 times for a single book page, at least 1-3 times for an average news paper article and several times during a video game session simply because I encounter new words all the time which may or may not be clear from context. Even if the context strongly points to the meaning, it's quite easy to misinterpret small nuances if you don't check a dictionary for the general idea.
I have heard people still pick up new vocabulary daily even beyond 25 000 words.

It's not just "learn 1500 kanji and then you can read newspapers". Building vocabulary is what takes time. Kanji is nothing in comparison. In fact, as many people already said, kanji knowledge beyond the 1000 most common is gained naturally by encountering new vocabulary as you read. However, even way beyond knowledge of 2000+ kanji there will be a flood of new words.
 
Depends on the light novel. There are some light novels at Jコミ. (Also manga and 4コマ). This is a free (ad-supported) site for older works - lots from the 1980s/1990s. I picked out the first couple on the list and quickly transcribed the first bits as an example (may have errors):

First is 妖精作戦

徹夜明けの目に、朝の日差しが痛かった。榊裕(さかきひろし)は目をしばたたかせながら新宿駅東口の大時計を見上げた。電光式の文字盤は五時三十分をまわっている。
「学校へ戻って寝れるな。ふわあ」
榊は大きくあくびをして背伸ばした。眠い。
「八本...じゃない、九本か...」
榊は前日の朝から見た映画の本数を数えなおした。夏休みの最後の日に、見逃がしていたロードショーや二番館に転げ落ちた作品を追いかけて、あげくの果てにオールナイトを二つハシゴした収穫である。
「あーつかれた」
新宿アルタ生面の横断歩道をのったり渡って地下道に入る。早朝だけあって人影は少ない。

There are a few non-教育 kanji here but some of them are understandable from context. More to the point, you don't necessarily need to know every word/kanji here to understand what's going on. 二番館 is, I'd argue, not obvious from the 'meanings' of the kanji, but obvious enough from context if you knew the much more common word 映画館.

Second one on the list was 愛の武将―直江兼続

天正五年(一五七七)春、越後の夜空に浮かぶ月は、標高六十三丈(約一八九メートル)の春日山の姿を、くっきりと照らし出していた。三月の十三夜の月は、ぼんやりとした霞をまとって、咲き始めた八重桜を照らし、春の終わりが間もないことを告げていた。新暦の四月十一日にあたる。
城下で暮らす民も、ここ数日の暖かさですっかり身体の働きも軽くなったように、樋口与六兼続(ひぐちよろくかねつぐ)は感じていたが、春日山城内は緊張感に包まれていた。無駄なく働き回る兵士たちの活気に溢れた声が、夕餉(ゆうげ)の前まで続いていた。二日後の十五日に織田との戦(いくさ)に向け、進軍が始まろうとしていたのである。

Although these are both labelled 'light novels' this one is pretty clearly more difficult. It has more out of 常用 kanji, some of them (溢, 霞) presented as vocab without furigana. It assumes some degree of cultural knowledge (terms like 越後). The style appears to be slightly 'heavier' overall - it may just be that they're trying to set the scene/tone with the opening lines, but it's likely to have more chunks of descriptive text.

It's probably not that difficult for someone who has an interest in history and knows some of that vocab, and is familiar with the typical "ye olde time" fake old Japanese the dialogue is almost certainly going to be written in (I didn't check), but I would consider this one more of a slog, and the first one lighter reading.

It's not a matter of X number of kanji or Y number of words - that's like saying there's a set number of words of English you need to know to read a novel in English. But someone who has a reasonable level of vocabulary/grammar knowledge and something around a thousand kanji should be able to find a light novel they can handle.
 
I would recommend a short story collection as a stepping stone to novels. Or perhaps even better, one of the many 雑学 "bathroom" books filled with short and light articles that you can open up and start reading on practically any page. Those make great "wind sprint" training before going on to lengthier texts.
 
How do you even count? Do you have any evidence?

Yes, I have saved every word and kanji I ever encountered in japanese in a spaced repetition program, along with around 11 000 phrases and whole texts. I spend around three hours every day repeating around 30 longer texts, 70-100 shorter phrases, around 250 vocabulary and around 30 kanji. This is the mandatory, repetitive part of my studies. Everything outside this is things I do for fun, like video games, newspapers (if the article seems interesting). Ofc the texts and words I encounter doing this are saved and then repeated.

What I did notice was that at around 15 000 words things started blending together more, the same words appeared in many places and I could more easily switch between different subjects and writing styles, such as going from video games to newspapers without feeling it was an iron wall every time. However, I also noticed that this is not a very large vocabulary when it comes to "total understanding without dictionary". I need the dictionary constantly even now.

When I read about someone saying "I have studied for 6 years at university level and know roughly 25 000 words but still encounter new words almost daily" I was not the least bit surprised. This is the scale of japanese and what makes it even harder to access on a "total scale" for a westerner is the complete lack of relation to indoeuropean languages. The logic of constructing words isn't based on greek and latin, farsi or even arabic or hebrew (which western languages borrows from). This is also why 15 000 is a relatively small vocabulary. There's nothing to relate to other than the meanings of the kanji and previously learned words.
 
Total understanding and liberal dictionary usage are luxuries of leisure that are really only options for those outside the constraints and demands of operating within an environment which demands immediacy.

In simpler words, if you're trying to function in a Japanese environment and hope to keep up, you don't have the time to indulge in the desire for total understanding or stopping to look stuff up.
 
Woah, I think I have met my first cyborg. Hey, if it works for you that's great. That would drive me nuts.
 
Total understanding and liberal dictionary usage are luxuries of leisure that are really only options for those outside the constraints and demands of operating within an environment which demands immediacy.

In simpler words, if you're trying to function in a Japanese environment and hope to keep up, you don't have the time to indulge in the desire for total understanding or stopping to look stuff up.

I totally agree. I chose this method simply because I was outside of Japan. I knew from day 1 that I would learn the language "mechanically", not "organically" and that if I ever some day actually went to Japan I would have to change my approach and streamline what I had memorized to fit into a practical everyday context.
 
I totally agree. I chose this method simply because I was outside of Japan. I knew from day 1 that I would learn the language "mechanically", not "organically" and that if I ever some day actually went to Japan I would have to change my approach and streamline what I had memorized to fit into a practical everyday context.

I saw people using that approach in Japan (and in the days of paper dictionaries!) and how miserable it was and how annoying for the other person it was, which very early on made me resolve NOT to be one of those.

Things you can't do and keep up:

1. Expect total understanding
2. Stop to look stuff up
3. Translate in your head (either way)
 
#1 is the biggest hurdle I see people go through after finishing intermediate. They study lists and lists and lists of vocabulary, in preparation for the day that they will read their first book and not miss a single word.

#2 context is always the best way to learn. We do it in our native language, why not a foreign one?

#3 I have no idea what you mean. I just respond instinctively in whatever language is being spoken. I know 3 languages, and it's far too hard for me to jump around without jumbling them all up.
 
It certainly takes a long time for the wheels to start turning this way but slowly but surely they do. I've always used this approach in whatever field, stumbling over my feet in dance classes etc but eventually achieving reflex mastery. Of course I know the disadvantages too and it's one reason why I didn't rush off to Japan spending money on a language school or something like that.

However, I do get my vocabulary from actual reading. Just that I save the words I encounter. It's not like I study up on individual words outside of context. The texts too are saved and I use them for 音読 and 暗唱.
If not completely immersed in the language daily, not taking any notes is equal to wasting the time spent with for example a book. Being more mechanical and transcribing texts for repetition is necessary for long term memory in this case.

Of course, there are also quite a few examples of people in any language being "fluent" for as long as they are living where the language is spoken everyday, and then their ability greatly declines after living 5 years outside the country in question. This is not what I would call true knowledge. It's like running a program directly from the disc without saving/copying. Also one reason why I chose to solidify what I know. I see it as planting my own fields and letting them grow rather than relying on fallen fruit from other people's farms.
There's also absolutely no drawback with having a solidified base of knowledge beforehand if ever in situation where you have to put this into practice. It just makes the immersion process lightning fast in comparison. Same with everything, not just language.

And of course, I know for a fact that even with this method, or maybe even this method particularly, you build 思考力. It's exactly what the daily repetitive reading, reading loud, reciting etc does. It was the prefered self-education method in the temple schools of Edo Japan. It creates long term memory patterns which over time perfectly emulates the same type of fluency someone can achieve faster by going with the direct, immersive "organic" approach. Basically, it is 創造 that comes from 習熟 as a japanese teacher explained it. A flower which does not wither.
 
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I meant #1 more in the context of conversation.

#3, many people construct their sentence in their head, translate it, then speak. When listening, they translate what they just heard. Horrible habit.
 
Well, it's important to keep reading if your away from the country. However, I don't consider it lost for good. I have a friend at work that I speak Korean with, when he takes extended absences his English is barely usable, but it all comes back after a few days. When I was young I played guitar like crazy, then gave it up for about 8 years. It only took me a few days before it all came back to me after starting again after all that time. I did not progress in those 8 years, but I did not forget anything that could not be easily reclaimed.
 
I would like to add this text as an interesting input to the discussion about kanji, vocabulary, reading comprehension etc in this thread. It's directed primarily at japanese children improving language skills without using a dictionary, but some parts I thought are possible to use as a foreigner studying japanese too. As some background I must also explain that this teacher recommends 音読 and 暗唱 in order for japanese children to improve their native language skills and this text describes the prerequisites for that method, namely being able to read words loud (knowledge of kanji readings).
One thing this teacher mentioned before is that the vocabulary used in everyday context is limited, so you cannot develop reading skills and broaden your language understanding by practicing your conversational skills alone.
Another thing which must be considered as a foreigner is that the brain doesn't even process and store a new language learned as an adult the same way it did when learning ones native language. This is why techniques (such as repeated reading) to stimulate long term memory of vocabulary becomes important.

The text supports the idea that you don't have to look up every single word (which I admit I do), but it also emphasizes that in order for this to be true you actually need to be able to pronounce and read the word, not just skim read without the proper literacy skills. Also, bear in mind that this is for japanese children who already know the language, so I think it's still valid to argue that up to a certain point (especially if learning kanji simultaneously to learning grammar, vocabulary, japanese syntax etc...) you will need a dictionary.
The middle path as a foreigner would be to use a dictionary for difficult words not clear from context (or even to pick up new kanji) but to use repetitive reading aloud to improve understanding of japanese syntax.

文章を理解する場合、いちばんいいのはまず全文を通して音読することです。
意味のわからない言葉などがあっても気にせずに、ひととおりすらすら読めるようになれば、文章全体の意味は自然にわかるようになります。

これと正反対の勉強が、意味のわからない言葉を逐一調べて、文章の意味を理解してから読むという方法です。

大事なのは、最初にまず全部を音読できることですから、そのためには漢字が読めるということが第一の前提になります。
現在の国語の勉強では、漢字が学年別に配当されているので、普通に勉強していたのでは、学年より上の漢字は読めません。

国語の教育のシステムが、学校を出るまでは自由に本を読むことができな子供たちを作っているとも言えるのです。
だから、漢字の読みについては、学校とは別に家庭で独自に機会を作っていく必要があると思います。
 
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