How to get past the basics

[Zlarp]

To me, my English ability suggests that I spent a lot of time with English. That has nothing to do with either me being a genius or me being a hard worker. I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that I like video games a bit too much and played a lot of them.

As for why I think Heisig is so important for me, I'd say it's not because I can suddenly read everything, but because it is no longer infinitely frustrating to try and read a text I want to read. With a combination of guessing and dictionary lookups I can progress through a text fast enough not to get bored with it while understanding enough to have fun and be able to follow things.

This means I now have the ability to spend a lot of times with texts that I love reading. I can now use Japanese "learning" as a means of procrastination instead of procrastinating on my Japanese studies.

As for the other answers, Mike Cash is apparently clairvoyant and knows when I was born and thinks I'm impertinant because I don't subscribe to his superior knowledge, and nahadef seems to deem it neccessary to "forgive" my inferior understanding of his inane ramblings, as I am an ESL student and therefore could never reach the lofty heights of native speakerhood, from whence "double meaning" would of course immediately be interpreted as "idiom", despite the actual nebulousness of the term. Actual understanding doesn't take work, by the way, it just takes time. Work is the thing you have to do if you want to make people think you're doing something worthwhile, which is exemplified brilliantly by this whole discussion.

 

[Mike Cash]

So....when were you born?

And I think you're impertinent because you're impertinent.

 

[Macrobiotic]

This is just how I learned the basics, not a universal truth. Feel free to ignore this as you please.

I think verb conjugation, verb modifiers, combined with learning about particles and learning hiragana and katakana, is a good place to start. The process of understanding verbs and particles will serve as an entrance gate to the language in the sense that you will see how a typical japanese sentence is constructed while also collecting some very useful example phrases.
This might dispel the initial confusion faster than if you learn through for example Genki which I personally think places too much focus on specific social situations (like a tourist guide) and too little on the actual functions of individual elements of the language. The individual grammatical components, rather than learning as a fixed phrase how to say you're an 18 year old exchange student who wants to know where the post office is, are the building blocks and verbs is the ideal place to start I think. To me this theoretical approach is the basics. Conversation is beyond the basics in my opinion and will consume a lot of time but teach very little at the initial stage.

 

[FinancialWar]

lol, every time a beginner ask such a question, the thread will likely be turned into a flame war involving Mike.

 

[Mike Cash]

lol, every time a beginner ask such a question, the thread will likely be turned into a flame war involving Mike.

I'm not the one who started slinging snotty remarks. Talk to Zlarp about that,

Of course, I can't understand what somebody who has been learning for two whole months thinks he has to add to the conversation about getting beyond the basics anyway.....

 

[Zlarp]

I'm not the one who started slinging snotty remarks. Talk to Zlarp about that,

Of course, I can't understand what somebody who has been learning for two whole months thinks he has to add to the conversation about getting beyond the basics anyway.....

The first snotty comment in the thread was yours, my friend, but you have seniority, so of course it's okay.

 

[Mike Cash]

No, you just get your *** up in the air anytime somebody doesn't bow down and worship at the alter of Heisig. The notion that subculture put forward about it bring necessary to learn 2200 kanji BEFORE STARTING to learn the language IS outlandish. Whether it be done using your personal Lord and Savior, Heisig, or any other method.

Let kanji get mentioned and you jump in with the Heisig mantra with all the zeal and verve of an airport Hare Krishna.

So....when were you born?

 

[nekojita]

There are actually some variants on the Heisig method floating about which modify it and remove some of the issues - e.g. Japanese keywords, RTK Lite which cuts it down to just the 教育漢字. If someone really wants to have a go at Heisig I'd recommend they look at those first.

I think something like 2001.Kanji.Odyssey is an excellent source for kanji (samples available), alongside a standard textbook.

 

[FinancialWar]

according to Kanji odyssey, 1100 kanji cover 90%. I can confirm that with my own experience. Heisig is effective, but 2200 in RTK1 is too much for most people in one go, however you have to take into the account that Heisig method is based on primitives and kanjis building on top of each other and not on coverage/frequency.

I think in the long run, that is if you are determined to learn Japanese for many years to come and want to be proficiently, it is better to do all the 2000 or so RTK1 kanjis in one go. It will pay off in the long run.

If you want to be able to learn and speak Japanese asap, there are better methods, but eventually you still have to learn all the Joyo kanji if you want to anywhere near native anyways. Depend on individual goals.

Personally I recommend Heisig to anyone regardless of level, if you want to learn Japanese, do all the kanjis Heisig way, it is imo the best methodology out there for non-sino sphere Japanese learners.

If you are Chinese, Heisig will not be that effective because it does not take into account pronunciation, like 80% Kanji are Phono-semantic compounds.

Disclaimer: this post is not considered an academic argument, it is personal, subjective, with little verifiable evidence.

 

[dpapathanasiou]

Check out Macaronics which is a site I created to further my own self-study.

It's a little more advanced, and it help if you already know some kanji, but if you highlight any text you'll get the corresponding hiragana and English meaning looked up automatically for you.

 

[KevinSpK]

Holy dam I did not expect such an explosion. Haha. I have sourced Genki and will look at getting Mina no Nihongo in afew months. The internets tells me there's somethings covered better in one than in the other an vice versa. You have helped a lot and putting up an example of the routes you took is very informative. I heard good things about Pimslers, might not need the sentences the teach for business men and people on holiday just yet, but having something to listen to is what you all recomend. Plus the added advantage of being tought a host of words I don't know, that should surely give me some things to deconstruct and play around with. Thanks gents.

---------- Post added at 20:14 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------

Will check out your site as soon as I can get to a pc. Black Berry won't show kana or kanji when its in text format.

 

[nekojita]

If you've already ordered/bought Genki, don't waste your money getting Minna no Nihongo as well - there might be some slight differences in what they cover but not enough to bother going through both.

 

[nahadef]

nahadef seems to deem it neccessary to "forgive" my inferior understanding of his inane ramblings, as I am an ESL student and therefore could never reach the lofty heights of native speakerhood, from whence "double meaning" would of course immediately be interpreted as "idiom", despite the actual nebulousness of the term. Actual understanding doesn't take work, by the way, it just takes time. Work is the thing you have to do if you want to make people think you're doing something worthwhile, which is exemplified brilliantly by this whole discussion.

Hey, you're the guy reading manga with full comprehension after two months. Let's give it over to you as to how to get past the basics. I apologise for annoying you with my inane ramblings, when you are apparently my superior in terms of study methods.

For the record, under no circumstances would "double meaning" be translated as "compound." If I can impart only a little nugget of knowledge, that will be it. I agree, the term "double meaning" was nebulous. It's the kind of English term I use to explain things to Japanese when teaching them, where the correct term may go over their head. My bad. My Japanese-English sometimes crosses over to my English-English.

Hence, I'm an inane rambler

Sorry for this inane reply.

 

[Mike Cash]

Zlarp didn't get past the basics; he skipped the basics.

 

[BrianLewis]

1 or 2 years is impractical unless you just go live over there and don't associate with English speakers. If you truly enjoy the experience, and it's just a hobby, then I would suggest adopting this as a part of your life and not limit your learning to a short period of time.

I do have to say that Pimsleur is a huge scam when it comes to language learning. Their marketing strategy is to price gouge and hope that people assume, because of the price, that it works better than other methods. Pimsleur focuses on set phrases for travelers, while textbooks teach you how to form your own sentences. Most textbooks also come with their own audio set. Learn to construct your own sentences, not imitate pre-rendered conversations.

 

[nahadef]

I just downloaded Pimsleur, so in that case, the scammer was me. For free, it's a great program. I don't remember the price, but I remember it being unreasonable.

 

[Mike Cash]

My goal when I first started was "reasonable proficiency in ten years". I also decided very early on I was going to avoid being a slave to a dictionary and that I was going to do my best not to have a clownish accent.

I didn't get past the basics until I moved from the English teaching racket into a job that was strictly 100 percent Japanese-only.

 

[Zlarp]

I love how Mike and I always clash But he pops up in every thread involving Heisig in any way and I feel there needs to be an equally explosive opposite to his utter negativity and personal distaste for the method - and I enjoy filling that role. Of course, I then get bombarded by unfounded attacks about me not doing the basics, having skipped them, what have you, even though I never said such a thing and am still working at them. Just because I read native texts and listen to native speakers (TV shows, movies, anime, what have you) to get those basics instead of textbooks doesn't mean I'm not doing them. It just means I don't believe that active study will get me there any faster.

Well, again, I did Tae Kim, so I'm not exactly starting without grammar from zero, either. If pressed I can conjugate a verb or two, though I'm still messing things up sometimes in my Anki reps, I'm getting better.

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't know anything about Heisig, Zlarp, so I have no opinion about his method. I don't know how you keep leaping to the conclusion that I am against Heisig.

My opinions have always been solely in regard to the ridiculousness of the idea that one has to "learn" over 2000 kanji before they even start learning the language, a bizzare idea that seems increasingly common over the last year or two. Every time that gets mentioned you assume I'm saying not to use Heisig and react like I slapped your mother.

I'm all in favor of learning kanji and building reading skills at an early stage, but in conjunction with a balanced and comprehensive approach learning the language itself.

So you're not going to tell us how old you are?

 

[Zlarp]

You don't want to see me react to you slapping my mother, I think, if you think I've actually been hostile. You have a very grating way of giving your opinion and I'm simply reacting appropriately. If you can't take what you dish out then you might want to reconsider your own behaviour before starting to find the splinters in the eyes of others, as they say.

And again, "learning" those 2000 kanji doesn't take a lot of time, so why not just do it and have it out of the way? The Chinese and the Koreans learn them before they learn Japanese, and you might notice that they do rather well at learning Japanese.

You seem obsessed with my age despite my obvious refusal to give you this information. You are either being very rude and pushy or you have some kind of fetish, I don't know how to respond to this...

 

[Mike Cash]

Fine, but in the future please make your disagreement with me about the merits of learning or not learning 2000 kanji before starting and not about the Heisig method in particular, as I have never expressed any opinion on the Heisig method anywhere at any time. It gets a little tiresome being taken to task for dissing Heisig when I've never said a single word about it.

 

[Zlarp]

I shall indeed make sure to make that distinction from now on and give my apologies for misrepresenting you. My mistake was to read "learning 2000 kanji before starting" as synonymous with the Heisig method, as I am not aware of any way of learning that proposes doing it this way except the Heisig method itself. Still, your point is taken, sir.

 

[nahadef]

Actual understanding doesn't take work, by the way, it just takes time. Work is the thing you have to do if you want to make people think you're doing something worthwhile, which is exemplified brilliantly by this whole discussion.

...Of course, I then get bombarded by unfounded attacks about me not doing the basics, having skipped them, what have you, even though I never said such a thing and am still working at them. Just because I read native texts and listen to native speakers (TV shows, movies, anime, what have you) to get those basics instead of textbooks doesn't mean I'm not doing them. It just means I don't believe that active study will get me there any faster.

So you don't think actual understanding takes work, but you're still working at it anyway? Are you trying to convince us you're doing something worthwhile? Why not just sit back in an easy chair and watch Pokemon and learn by osmosis? You are confusing. You want to make it sound easy, but also make it sound like you're trying.

 

[Zlarp]

That actually sums it up quite nicely. It's not as much of a contradiction as you make it out to be

 

[nekojita]

The Chinese and the Koreans learn them before they learn Japanese

A native speaker of Chinese will have an in-depth knowledge of hanzi and recognise a large number of 漢語 as well. I don't think Koreans start until later in school but there's still a fair bit of shared vocab (even if the pronunciations are different). Learning (by any method which could be accomplished in less than a year) the basics of 2000 kanji doesn't put you on a level playing field with Chinese and Korean learners.

"learning" those 2000 kanji doesn't take a lot of time, so why not just do it and have it out of the way?

Law of diminishing returns. The more you learn, the less common/useful the next one you learn is likely to be. The number '2000' (or, if you're going by the new list, 2136), is arbitrary. The 常用 list contains a number of kanji that you're unlikely to see unless you're reading very specific things. Why that and not the 教育漢字 (the first 1006 learnt in school), and then whatever comes up in what you're reading? There's quite a lot of stuff around that will only use the 教育漢字 and put furigana on everything else (including manga, since a lot of it is aimed at that age group).

And of course it won't be 'out of the way' - unless you're constantly reviewing, you're going to forget some of those 2000, because you won't see them very often (how often do you see 朕 in what you're reading?) Then there will be things outside those 2000 that appear that you'll have to learn (depending on what you're reading, again). Seriously, 覗 is still not on there, or 嘘, or 蝶 or 叩. 栗 or 炒 or 醤油の醤 or 胡麻の胡 (also in 胡椒).