How to get past the basics

[KevinSpK]

Hi.

I am very intrested in learning Japanese. But like many I don't know where to realy start. I have lernt the odd word and some simple sentence structure to the point that I could say "that car is green" "I am an idiot" or "I love ramen". But I feel I'm just waisting my time.

So my questions are pretty straight forward.

1) Do you guys know any software that is decent to learn with.
And are there any books that people consider the best place to begin. I have heard of Genki something or other and Mina no Nihongo. But am I missing something, these seem to be all in japanese witch doesn't help if I don't know what it all means yet.

2) I have lernt the kana and no kanji yet. Do you think I should start learning kanji now or waight till I'm abit quicker at reading kana. Ofcourse the big problem is vocab. I would like to get a book to read that isn't vocab intense, sort of like the "this is spot, see spot run, run spot run" sort of level. To get myself recognising the kana quicker and learning some words along the way. Anything to high in level is going to get frustrating when I have to stop on every word and look it up in a dictionary.

3) Just some general questions. How many words will I need to fluently know to be able to start watching jdorama, have a conversation about relevent things instead of just my name and age or read a book intendid for a teen. The baisics are hell, and being stuck in this point of the language learning process is terible. Staying motivated is the hardest part since I have nobody learning with me to keep my chops up with. And when I try look for things to watch or read I always try jumping in to deep. So any help or ideas will be a God send.

Thanks in advance.

 

[BrianLewis]

I only recommend studying by books if there are no classes available. I used a Genki book while studying intermediate. It was probably the best of the ones that I learned from. I hear a lot of people recommend Minna no Nihongo, but I have no experience with it.

The Genki books are about 50 percent or so in Japanese. All explanations are in English, and vocabulary lists have both languages. There are reading passages that are fully in Japanese. Maybe that's what you ran across. I have read a lot of jumbled textbooks and unnecessarily dense textbooks when it comes to language, however Genki is concise and easy to follow. It was also the text book used at CSU Fullerton to teach their Japanese courses quite a few years ago. In fact, check out a few college book stores online and see what they use, that might help to narrow your search.

Just make sure you get a text book and not any of the garbage language books they sell at book stores. You need a concise program to follow until you finish intermediate.

When I was a beginner, I bought a few programs to mess around with. However, none of them were any use in the long term. Either a teacher or a textbook is your best bet.

I should warn you though, your going to have to deal with childish dialogue and comic books for quite a few years before you can read any mature material. You're just going to have to get use to that.

 

[eeky]

If you seriously want to learn to read Japanese then it is never too soon to start learning kanji. There is no point waiting until you can read kana more quickly. You can improve kana fluency and start learning kanji at the same time.

 

[Subculture]

Do kanji immediately if you want to get past basics learn the 2200 joyo kanji using heisig's remembering the kanji and Anki (SRS program) then you can start on actually learning Japanese. Think of Kanji as a prerequisite to learning Japanese and if you don't learn kanji it's unlikely you're ever going to hold a real convocation.

 

[Mike Cash]

Do kanji immediately if you want to get past basics learn the 2200 joyo kanji using heisig's remembering the kanji and Anki (SRS program) then you can start on actually learning Japanese. Think of Kanji as a prerequisite to learning Japanese and if you don't learn kanji it's unlikely you're ever going to hold a real convocation.

That is the most outlandish statement I have ever seen on the subject.

 

[BrianLewis]

Did you learn all the pronunciations using this method? I am wondering how using 2 different methods can actually help you learn faster than sticking with 1. I'm being serious, by the way.

I estimate 8 months to 2 years learning pronunciation only.

 

[Mike Cash]

Someday I hope to meet a foreigner who is actually conversationally functional and functionally literate who can honestly say he sat down and memorized 2000+ kanji before he started studying the language.

I won't be holding my breath.

 

[BrianLewis]

I would agree that that is unlikely. There are certain rewards that come at certain intervals while studying that keep one going. Although I did study kanji along the way, I didn't make it my primary concern until I finished the intermediate level and had a few years of reading behind me.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Mike Cash definitely hit the nail on the head in this thread.

It seems to be completely obvious, but people don't seem to ask themselves how natives of any language learned their native language, and then apply that to their foreign language studies as much as possible.

You need to immerse yourself in the language. Best if you truly need it for everyday communication. And you need to accept the fact that you are a child in that language and pretty much drop your guard and your pride and practically be a child in the language. You need to start by LISTENING. In the beginning, it should dominate everything you do. You should listen until you can pick out individual words, then look them up in a decent romaji dictionary. Then you should start COPYING what people say, armed with having looked up and checked definitions. Then after you gain proficiency listening and speaking, you start with reading and writing, just like kids do.

Mind, if you are living Japanese every single day, it won't hurt to study writing at the same time. But if you don't have native speakers around and limited study time, then I would recommend filling that time with listening to whatever Japanese movies and TV shows you can, watch the same stuff multiple times, and pick out and copy what you can and look that stuff up as best you can. Copy their words and their accent.

If you try to form your own sentences at first, you will get nothing but wrong wrong wrong and you will miseducate yourself and sound like a total *****. Listen. Copy. And only after that do you try to form unique sentences.

Anyway, the real language is spoken and that is true of any natural language on the planet.

 

[BrianLewis]

8 hours watching TV vs. 8 hours reading a text book. There really is no comparison. Yes, it's important to be a listener, and that should not be neglected. However, a class or a textbook designed for a class is faster by a great deal.

I started my Japanese by learning kana, then taking 2 classes. After that it was all self study and reading. At the same time I watched Korean TV for several years. It wasn't until I got around mid-intermediate that I bought my first Korean language textbook. Comparing the two my Korean was far behind and I had to play catch up for several years.

There is no reason not to do both. However, don't consider watching TV as studying. Use TV as your break. I have seen far too many students wash out of their classes because they thought that watching anime was as good as hard work.

 

[KevinSpK]

I will see what listening material I can dig up. The reason I want to start reading along with learning to speak the language is that I retain a lot more when I read and write. Plus all the text books pretty much require it. And I'm fine with that. Its extremely fun being able to read japanese instructions or the japanese descriptions on boxes when the others around me can't. Ofcourse there's always a larf when they ask me what it means and I have no clue. I understand and agree with the statement about kids learning to talk and then read and write. But I'm totaly capable to tackle the two together. I'm unfortunately not able to really suround myself in all things japanese as there is not a single person I can enjoy it with or comunicate to. One of the reasons I joined this forum is to be able to chat in the practice section when I'm a bit more comftable. But thanks all for the great advice. And good luck to everybody else who is undertaking this journey. Weather out of necesity or just to learn a realy fun language for no reason but the enjoyment like myself.

 

[Mike Cash]

There is definitely something to be said for surrounding yourself with the sounds of the language, though, whether you're actively paying attention to them or not. It is vital for getting used to the rhythms, patterns, accent, pronunciation, etc. But I do agree that a good text should play a central part, at least for getting you jump-started to the point where you can more easily pick up stuff from your environment.

Of course, a good deal of this comes down to whether one is attempting to learn Japanese as a foreign language or as a second language. In other words: whether you will have any real, immediate, practical (and perhaps vital) NEED to use the language ("second language") or whether it is essentially just a hobby and whether your learn it well or not really won't matter a hill of beans to your ability to conduct your life ("foreign language).

If learning as a foreign language, then it is all really moot and the learner may as well just do whatever he wants to do....whatever brings him enjoyment, which after all is going to be the prime motivation for continuing to study.

 

[KevinSpK]

Wow, that just makes so much sense. Down time can be a good time for some enjoable study time. Learn from the books, enjoy the shows. Are there any easier to follow shows. For the beginners.

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------

It is just something I'm doing as a hobby. But by no means am I willing to be less fluent and well spoken as somebody who is learning the language out of the need for business or because they are surrounded by japanese speakers. I will someday spend a lot of time in Japan as I love the culture and the people. But untill then I want to enjoy the variety shows and jdorama even the music. The Pillows being a band I have recently started listening to. Ofcourse that raises this question. Won't I, as a beginner, pick up to many bad habits from the women speaking differently to men and slang and artistic word play in the songs.

 

[Zlarp]

People call Heisig an outlandish idea? Oh, it's Mike, nevermind...

Heisig is the best thing you can do if you want to surround yourself with Japanese. You might not always be able to get Japanese voices into your head at every time of the day, but text should always be available, and Heisig unscarifies text, so you can actually start reading very quickly even if you don't understand things.

And to me, reading without understanding is one of the best things you can do to get to the part where you read with understanding.

 

[OoTmaster]

Having used anime myself to practice listening. I suggest you use shows that are meant for small children or for teens. I use shonen jump shows myself. But that is just because I enjoy their anime. You want to look for shows that don't have mature themes such as extreme violence and blood. Kids are also easier for me to understand so you might want to look for anime that have kids doing the voices. They tend to speak slower and pronounce words.

 

[Mike Cash]

Zlarp, God forbid you should actually understand what I wrote before you respond to it....

 

[nahadef]

People call Heisig an outlandish idea? Oh, it's Mike, nevermind...
Heisig is the best thing you can do if you want to surround yourself with Japanese. You might not always be able to get Japanese voices into your head at every time of the day, but text should always be available, and Heisig unscarifies text, so you can actually start reading very quickly even if you don't understand things.
And to me, reading without understanding is one of the best things you can do to get to the part where you read with understanding.

I really didn't like Heisig. I found it a way for foreigners to get the gist of kanji without actually knowing them or using them.

My beginner study strategy, that worked for me:
-Japanese for Busy People (Genki or Minna would be a better substitute, since they have much less business involved)
-Pimsleur CDs. Very good. Still a little business-oriented, but it gives you great Japanese to slowly listen to, lots of repetition, and convenient on an iPod

After a year:
-Kids drill books for kanji. I started with Kanji Kentei 10 kyu (book intended for a 6 year old). Learned the first 40 comfortably in a few months. Over two years, I learned up to 6 kyu, which set me up with the kanji of a 10 year old. This is most of what you need for actual life in Japan, though doesn't cover everything you'll find in books or manga.
-I studied texts for the Nihongo Noryoku Shiken, the international test of Japanese. This dramatically opened up my vocabulary and grammar comprehension.

After two years studying like this, I met my wife, and have been speaking in Japanese daily ever since. At the end of the first year, I was still talking like a child, and at the end of the second, I was able to have conversations with people relatively comfortably, though I had to describe some words that I didn't know.


What's going to work with you is not going to be the same as with me. But you need to set smaller, more achievable goals. I don't enjoy Japanese TV at all, so I don't watch J-dramas, but when I watch TV, it's a hell of a lot harder to understand than daily conversation. I think you're looking at years to get to that level, so setting a short term goal is better.

I'd recommend something like Minna No Nihongo, plus audio study with something like Pimsleur, and learning hiragana and katakana. After one year, see if you're ready to go to the next level.

Good luck!

 

[Zlarp]

Yeah, so I started learning a bit over 2 months ago and am now reading Manga. I don't exactly understand everything, but reading what you went through and how much time you spent on it seems kind of hellish. I definitely couldn't take a year of textbooks or primsleur CDs.

 

[Mike Cash]

Visually decoding based on recognizing the meanings of some individual kanji, without an ability to pronounce them or any understanding of the grammar is not "reading".

 

[nahadef]

Yeah, so I started learning a bit over 2 months ago and am now reading Manga. I don't exactly understand everything, but reading what you went through and how much time you spent on it seems kind of hellish. I definitely couldn't take a year of textbooks or primsleur CDs.

When you say, "don't exactly understand everything," I think you're underselling things. You aren't understanding a lot, except the basic plot of the book. You'd be better off just reading translations. You're missing the meaning of the grammar displayed, and the nuance of all the hiragana constructions, plus the kanji which has double meanings. At least.

And if you think two years of study is hellish, I don't think you understand the complexity of a foreign language, particularly Japanese. Two years of study is actually a short time.

I suppose if your only goal is to make out what is happening in a manga book, heisig will do the trick, sort of, but the OP wants to be able to have conversations in Japanese. That is going to take actual work. Why do people think studying should be easy? That is not aimed at you, but at anyone who asks, for example, for language learning software. There isn't a magic way to get this info in your head.

 

[Zlarp]

Visually decoding based on recognizing the meanings of some individual kanji, without an ability to pronounce them or any understanding of the grammar is not "reading".

Did you know manga sometimes comes with furigana? You should buy one.

---------- Post added at 07:56 ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 ----------

When you say, "don't exactly understand everything," I think you're underselling things. You aren't understanding a lot, except the basic plot of the book. You'd be better off just reading translations. You're missing the meaning of the grammar displayed, and the nuance of all the hiragana constructions, plus the kanji which has double meanings. At least.

And if you think two years of study is hellish, I don't think you understand the complexity of a foreign language, particularly Japanese. Two years of study is actually a short time.

I suppose if your only goal is to make out what is happening in a manga book, heisig will do the trick, sort of, but the OP wants to be able to have conversations in Japanese. That is going to take actual work. Why do people think studying should be easy? That is not aimed at you, but at anyone who asks, for example, for language learning software. There isn't a magic way to get this info in your head.

I went through Tae Kim and I have my particles well enough to decode them grammars, thank you very much. And how am I missing double kanji meanings? I'll have you know I even understand *gasp* compounds, and sometimes *double gasp* I can do that without even having to look them up in the dictionary.

As for me not understanding the complexities of a foreign language... Well, English is a foreign language for me, I'm actually a native German speaker who's never left his own country for more than three months.

Why do people think studying should be easy? Because it should be easy, what a dumb question.

 

[Mike Cash]

Did you know manga sometimes comes with furigana? You should buy one.

I was reading them probably before you were born and have hundreds of them stored in a closet (and not the bubblegum-for-the-brain crap with furigana). They were my stepping stones to being able to read actual books (and without using a dictionary as a crutch either). So while I understand your beginner's zeal you might want to consider that you're not only not the first person ever to work on reading Japanese text you're also not the most advanced, experienced, or knowledgeable about it either and drop that damned 生意気な attitude of yours.

 

[nahadef]

Enjoy your deep understanding zlorp. You know what you know, so who am I to claim genuine comprehension takes work?

---------- Post added at 08:16 ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 ----------

And by 'double meanings', I meant idioms. That in no way means compound kanji. But I'll forgive the error as you're an ESL student

 

[Gee337]

Although I'm not that experienced, I'd like to give some ideas as well.
I think learning kanji after you can speak at an intermediate level is more beneficial. When I started learning kanji, I already know most of the words so I didn't have to worry about memorizing the meanings, only the kanji itself, especially in the beginning. It also provided something fresh - a new perspective on the language, which I find important, as it makes learning more interesting. (And I found learning kanji like this to be really interessting.)
Other than that, I can only give ideas about passive learning, and making use of your "downtime", when you're not learning.
If you watch dorama, anime, or a japanese film, you could try watching them with english subtitles first, so you'll know what's happening. Then with japanese subtitles. If you encounter something you don't know, just google it, be it a word or some grammar structure you don't understand. I did the same.
If you are taking a walk, riding public transport, or anything like that, practice in your mind. Imagine writing kana on a paper. Or have an imaginary conversation with someone in Japanese. Try to comment on stuff happening around you. Or, if you are alone, think out loud, in Japanese. Talk to yourself. That works under the shower as well. I might seem a bit crazy, talking to myself and stuff, but that's because I had the very same problem of not having anyone to practice with, only for a few months.
So, these are just my experiences. Perhaps they are not really relevant right now, but perhaps you can put these to use later on.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Yeah, so I started learning a bit over 2 months ago and am now reading Manga. I don't exactly understand everything, but reading what you went through and how much time you spent on it seems kind of hellish. I definitely couldn't take a year of textbooks or primsleur CDs.

You should be careful not to generalize your personal experience too much. You're assuming that Heisig is the reason you are reading manga after two months of study, but there could just as well be other, more pertinent factors. For example, your level of English ability suggests you are already gifted with language acquisition, or perhaps a hard work ethic, some combination of those or other factors, etc.