How terrible!Japanese~look and listen.

[deadhippo]

Hi again Lexico
I believe the British text books are very similar to the Irish texts but again the numbers vary, but then again they vary in Irish text books, the reason is its very difficult to calculate the population for these times
And also involves a degree of propaganda I'm sure (similar to the Armenian holocaust, well never know the true figures)
another point to note is that as Ireland is a relatively (there i go again) minor part of British history so their textbooks don't go into great detail
but Britain is a major part of Irish history as you can imagine so it goes into great detail
regarding cromwell i imagine even british historians describe him as one of the most despicable men to have ever walked the earth

as for denial of these events, i too am against it
i was shocked to discover last year than a manga was forbidden to be published because it mentioned (that's right "mentioned") the nanking massacre as if it were a fact, the manga story itself was completely fictional
so even it didn't happen i cant see why it was censored

most of the Japanese people i talked to on the other hand believe it happened
i on the other hand don't really have the information to judge but i have enough info to believe something happened

Another point, about the "genocide"
The reason I used the inverted commas is because I don't believe it was genocide
But its not that I don't believe the Irish aren't capable of genocide
The fact is we are, if you go back a few hundred years more when we had been invaded by the Vikings the Irish burned whole cities to the ground killing men women and children
That was the way back then
of course the Vikings did invade Ireland not the other way around
and they killed raped and kidnapped irish people first
and settled on irish land

do i blame them...no
why? that was the way back then
i believe that if Irelands population had been bigger and our technology greater it would have been irish conquering other lands and not the other way around

same with asia
many years ago i read about the mongolian hordes sending large fleets to attack japan only to be defeated by bad weather and bad luck
like the spanish armada

if the weather had been favorable on either of those occasions then japan might have been ruled by the mongols even today

i think proximity is what makes something seem bad
by proximity i mean both time and location
but mostly location
thats probably where the expression "bring home" comes from

bring home

To make perfectly clear: a lecture that brought home several important points.

from that i mean that maybe chinas history with japan seems so terrible because it was quite recent and very close to your home
i thought this many years ago during the genocides in rwanda
one man had been murdered in ireland (which was not all that common) and my friend was so shocked and saying it was so terrible
but i was confused because he didnt seem so shocked when talking about the hundreds of thousands that had been killed in rwanda
anyway i digressed

lets say that neither situation i better or worse for the sake of not arguing
lets just say they are comparable
i wouldnt excuse or condone any such comparable post football hooliganism (racial or otherwise) by irish people

regarding my knowledge - 1 its a long time since i looked at a history book or took a lesson so my memory is not so reliable
2 my history is irish history, a country which is still at war so i believe it must contain some propaganda

 

[deadhippo]

May be you are right ~hehe ~I learned more~ Thanks ,and I have deleted that Flash link!

that flash is useless disgusting racist crap .. humorous only to haters of japan
and nothing good comes from hate or spreading it around

honestly i look down on the people who spent their time making that crap
they should spend their time productively not destructively

and also i think if non-japan haters see this it will lower their opinion of the chinese people in general even though it is not, i hope, representative of the nation of china
you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this here or anywhere as its only purpose is to stir up animosity of which there is enough of in the world already

 

[TwistedMac]

I like the "subtle" threats you make in this thread, 4321.

"I'm not gonna let my countrymen touch a random japanese living here.. but you know.. if the japanese don't stop attacking us 60 years ago, I don't know what I'll do! I'm kuh-reeeeizi!"

or

The Japanese,one who,live in China now is in danger.May be the hooligan live in the city and town will attack them.But I will not let it happen~.But if the Japanese government still hurt the virtuous common Chinese People,unexpectable things will happen.

as you put it.

by the way:
Virtuous? You're seriously going to use that word to describe the entire Chinese people as a whole?

 

[lexico]

Virtuous? You're seriously going to use that word to describe the entire Chinese people as a whole?

It is interesting to note that "virtue," in Chinese would be either 窶慊ｹ窶板 'the qualities of being guided and orderly, which can be likened to an inscribed, crafted piece of jade, or the self-regulating jade-craftsman,' or 窶慊ｹﾃｺﾂｺ 'the qualties of being guided and perceptive.' (note: my etymologies are experimental.)

No single people are to be characterised by one quality as nothing can be said to be the absolute manifestation of an abstract quality. Nevertheless, as in many cultures that show particular interest in certain values, it is true that 窶慊ｹ 'being guided, paved' and ﾃｺﾂｺ 'rectitude, straight, literal, perceptive' have been some of the most highly valued qualities that were studied and discussed by the Chinese, and by which the Chinese societies judged its policies and political leaders, even if some were propagandist or wishful thinking.

I guess the main question should be: Did China retaliate on Imperial Japan ? And take Japanese lives to the scale of 10 million, or 40 million if we count 2ndary deaths such as those killed by famine, disease and other propagated consequences that might have been prevented but for Japan's forceful entry into China ? That much restraint, imho is vituous by all standards. Demanding truthful historical representation is not asking much, and also something for which they deserve to be praised, for they do not demand "retributive" justice which would be really threatening.

Yes, you do have a point, Mac. about the subltleness of the threat, but yeah, I thought these points, and other possible ones, might have some bearing on your comment on 43210's remark. I hope you don't find my remark also subtly threatening ?

 

[4321go]

that flash is useless disgusting racist crap .. humorous only to haters of japan
and nothing good comes from hate or spreading it around

honestly i look down on the people who spent their time making that crap
they should spend their time productively not destructively

and also i think if non-japan haters see this it will lower their opinion of the chinese people in general even though it is not, i hope, representative of the nation of china
you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this here or anywhere as its only purpose is to stir up animosity of which there is enough of in the world already

Calm down~,
This flash do have some value ,for it contains the answer of the question abouto Chinese be critical of Japan only for the history?...You can see that "flash" spent little time to look back history...
After all ,That flash is only a "tool" for my remark,I want to use it to answer somebody's question~

As to "stir up animosity" ,~anyhow,people won't hate Japan only for watching a "flash"!!

Don't worry too much~Chinese is virtuous!It is the freedom for people to public their artwork .I do hope more Japanese can watch this flash movie without prejudice. After all ,the best way to eliminate conflict is communicate(communion)

 

[deadhippo]

As to "stir up animosity" ,~anyhow,people won't hate Japan only for watching a "flash"!!

rather than make people hate japan, if you had read my post more carefully, i think this flash will make people look down on chinese people

communication is a great tool but often misused as in your case

 

[4321go]

ﾂ"look down on chinese peopleﾂ"ﾂ？ﾂ？ﾂ？I'm puzzled...

I understand:because your are Japanese~~,you are surely feel uncomfortable when you watching this flash movie!

And I think "TwistedMac" is the guy who speak like a book (word-splitting),you should understand why I say like that is only to indicate I don't approve of the violence.I think you have be on to it.

 

[4321go]

http://www.bhxp.com/bbs/upfilesNew/200504101756002213_s.wmv
http://www.bhxp.com/bbs/upfilesNew/1113140010758.asf
http://www.beatjp.com/0410/bj.wma

 

[lexico]

http://www.bhxp.com/bbs/upfilesNew/200504101756002213_s.wmv
http://www.bhxp.com/bbs/upfilesNew/1113140010758.asf
http://www.beatjp.com/0410/bj.wma

I saw the first two; in Korean and Cantonese. The demonstrations are spreading to the South; Guangzhou, Shenzhen. This is no simple matter, and looks like Japan needs to take careful steps towards some kind of genuince resolution this time.
Thx for sharing, 4321go. The office here is closing; more tomorrow.

 

[lonesoullost3]

ﾂ"look down on chinese peopleﾂ"ﾂ？ﾂ？ﾂ？I'm puzzled...

I understand:because your are Japanese~~,you are surely feel uncomfortable when you watching this flash movie!

There is a limit of what you can call spreading information. When something becomes too biased and one-sided then it is very hard to take it seriously - if at all. I haven't seen the flash yet (for some reason I can't get it to work at home or at work) so I'm basing what I'm saying from what I've read of other people - so take it with a grain of salt (or two).

And can anybody explan what the links 4321go provided are about for a poor, unable to understand korean, cantonese, or mandarin (yet) person like myself?

 

[deadhippo]

ﾂ"look down on chinese peopleﾂ"ﾂ？ﾂ？ﾂ？I'm puzzled...

I understand:because your are Japanese~~,you are surely feel uncomfortable when you watching this flash movie!

im not surprised that you are puzzled
maybe you need to read this thread again from the beginning
slowly and carefully
get a dictionary if you need it and then you might understand what im saying better and you may understand more about my ethnic background

but to put it simply

anybody who wasted their time making such an animaton is to be looked down upon
assuming it was made by a chinese person which while it may not be a fact i think it is an assumption that most people will make people will first look down on the individual(s) who made it and it and other things like it (for example, the aforementioned football hooliganism) will create a stereotype in some peoples minds

now my recommendation for you, red the other posts more carefully
i wish i could speak chinese so that i would know that you get my points but i feel you wouldnt understand anyway

 

[masayoshi]

I believe we are in general agreement. Nevertheless I would think "violent" is a rather strong word. To rape, kill, and maim is violent while angry shouts of condemnation is not. To ease the pain, we as outsiders, would do best to be civil in our protest to the regrettable (not violent) means of protest.

To rape, kill, maim is despicable and inhumane on top of being violent. If riots involves throwing of stones, projectiles and destruction of property, I'd call it violent

Whoa, sorry !
Please do NOT compare the demonstrations with "Islamic terrorist" attacks which conjures up images of 9/11 and 7/7. That is simply unfair; you might be accused of venting your frustration from the threat to security that the people in UK, and the free world by extension, are experiencing onto this Chinese demonstration.

What I'm trying to convey is that such group violent expression is more often triggered by a specific reason and pent-up frustration than not. The Islamists can recruit in Britain because there is cause for frustration by the West's double standard in Iraq, etc. Basically, the Islamist cause is "marketable"

Same can be said for the Chinese nationalist extremism. It appeals to its targets because of the persistence of high-ranking Japanese to whitewash their countrymen's past atrocities. Theses and books were written to deny the crimes committed and brand them as fabrication, an ultimate insult to the souls of the deceased. It's this denial that causes anger and the feeling that Japanese don't regret what they did. Koizumi poured oil on the fire with his visits to Yasukuni

Regarding Koizumi, let the common wisdom of the average Japanese citizen decide at the next election; Koizumi & co. need not move a finger be be ousted out of office at the ballot.

I sincerely hope he'll be kicked out. But I would be careful because Ishihara was voted twice in the Tokyo office. Koizumi might take advantage of popular fear for security to get the post again. Just like Bush used the war on terror

I would refrain from calling your compatriots "thugs"; who are you against, the PRC, the CCP, the Chinese citizens, or the demonstrators ? After all; once the nagging conflicts have subsided, wouldn't you someday embrace your own people ?

I'm not generalising but referring to the rioters and CCP members who'd want to pressure Japan and others through violence. Why would I need the conflicts to end to embrace my own people? Not all Chinese are hooligans

 

[shiroma]

本宮ひろ志

i was shocked to discover last year than a manga was forbidden to be published because it mentioned (that's right "mentioned") the nanking massacre as if it were a fact, the manga story itself was completely fictional
so even it didn't happen i cant see why it was censored

This is a very good example of how "facts" are fabricated, while the manga was NEVER forbidden to be published. Let's review what really happened:

窶｢ The author used a "reference" photo of questionable nature, also changing the cloth of a man to Imperial Japanese Army uniform for whatever purpose.

窶｢ People including local assemblymen questioned such kind of practice done in the initial weekly installment version, from the historicity viewpoint.

窶｢ The author kept silence for a month and a half, ignoring the demands for explanation.

窶｢ The publisher responded with cowardly wiping out the part in the vol.8 compilation. They did have freedom of press to keep it the same as original, if they believed that there was a reason for the particular drawing to be there.

窶｢ The author and publiser can pose the victim role when Japan-haters spread around the lie that the publication was banned.

Related thread

 

[deadhippo]

This is a very good example of how "facts" are fabricated, while the manga was NEVER forbidden to be published. Let's review what really happened:

ﾂ・The author used a "reference" photo of questionable nature, also changing the cloth of a man to Imperial Japanese Army uniform for whatever purpose.

ﾂ・People including local assemblymen questioned such kind of practice done in the initial weekly installment version, from the historicity viewpoint.

ﾂ・The author kept silence for a month and a half, ignoring the demands for explanation.

ﾂ・The publisher responded with cowardly wiping out the part in the vol.8 compilation. They did have freedom of press to keep it the same as original, if they believed that there was a reason for the particular drawing to be there.

ﾂ・The author and publiser can pose the victim role when Japan-haters spread around the lie that the publication was banned.

Related thread

thanks for the info, i hadnt seen that thread
i got mine from the Japan Times

i hope you are not implying that I'm a Japan hater though
i'm not small minded enough to hate a country

on your second last point though i cant agree
i dont think there has to be a reason for a particular drawing to be there apart from the fact that the author wanted it to be there (the story was fictional wasnt it, or was that misreported by the Japan Times)

 

[4321go]

Here is a thread in Chinese forum,which provide more video ! ~:

http://www.300000.org/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=45&ID=55120&page=1

 

[lonesoullost3]

Here is a thread in Chinese forum,which provide more video ! ~:

http://www.300000.org/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=45&ID=55120&page=1

I appreciate the effort you're taking in finding these videos. However, constantly posting video isn't necessarily productive to the discussion. We already know that there are many people in China who dislike the Japanese (some would go as far to say they hate them). Posting more video - that most people on this forum can't understand anyways - isn't very conducive, especially if it's just saying the same thing as the others do.

 

[innerfire]

4321go you're just another poor Chinese fellah who got whispered in his ear that Japan is bad,

It seems that the media control of western media is tighter than that of China. We take things not from "whisper" but from both history and reality. We do not wanna live in history all the time. But we do hope such history never happen again in the future. Anyway, things seem not going well. Gemany did similar crime on the Jews in WWII but it regained trust from all over the world simply by Schroeder's "kneel down". But let's see what Japan's doing: hope your media reported to you people the actual atitudes of today's Japan on the crime in history (hope you know what the crime was, otherwise get informed before posting here). We do not need a compensation in money, or, in blood, but we do need a conciliation for our deeply wounded hearts. For: "Atitude is everything." A man who is not daring and willing to admit his mistake is no man at all. This could be interpreted as that he will make the same mistake next time, deliberately maybe. Whoops! SHAME ON YOU JAPAN.

If you think what I've said does not make any sense, ok. Korea is a democratic nation without media control, right? Ask a korean randomly about Japan. They will explain the whole thing for you maybe more legible than I do.


Yep it just like a sports game. Or, just as Michael Jackson sings: "It doesn't matter who's wrong or right just beat it!" But, in name of planet Earth, and in all good will, we Chinese do not want confrontation with any race of human beings. We want develop science, technology, economy and demacracy. We just want to live in peace, just like most humans do. But Japan's atitude toward their inhumane crime is breaking our peaceful dream now. I hate war, but if I were pushed to a war, then the only thing I shall regret for is "I have but one life to lose for my COUNTRY."

I fully understand what you guys think about China, including understandings and misunderstandings, but, please try to truly understand us -- a new generation of China.

(With condolence to all civilians who lost their lives in the A-bomb attacks.)

 

[lexico]

Welcome to the forum, InnerFire !
Hope to see more of your fine posts !

 

[innerfire]

Welcome to the forum, InnerFire !
Hope to see more of your fine posts !

Thank you so much lexico!

It's so good to share opinions here with you guys!

 

[innerfire]

I like the "subtle" threats you make in this thread, 4321.

"I'm not gonna let my countrymen touch a random japanese living here.. but you know.. if the japanese don't stop attacking us 60 years ago, I don't know what I'll do! I'm kuh-reeeeizi!"

Nope! 4321 did not mean that. It is Japan's ATTITUDE toward inhumane crime 60 years ago "hurt"s us, not the crime itself. We never live in history, but we estimate our future from history.

Please read 4321's original post carefully before reply:

...But if the Japanese government still hurt the virtuous common Chinese People,unexpectable things will happen.

So do not try to Twist the meaning, TwistedMac!

 

[innerfire]

that flash is useless disgusting racist crap .. humorous only to haters of japan
and nothing good comes from hate or spreading it around

honestly i look down on the people who spent their time making that crap
they should spend their time productively not destructively

and also i think if non-japan haters see this it will lower their opinion of the chinese people in general even though it is not, i hope, representative of the nation of china
you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this here or anywhere as its only purpose is to stir up animosity of which there is enough of in the world already

Thank you for your kind advice, deadhippo. I've read your posts and mostly agree with you. "they should spend their time productively not destructively", yea! that's the point.

But I do want you to know is: most of well-educated young Chinese were not involved in the "riot" agaist Japan. They were reading in libraries, doing experiments in labs, doing researchs in institutes, surfing on the internet for cutting-edge knowledges, studing western civilizations......We are not as good as you currently, I admit, but we are on our way now.

Comparing to Japan's performance, the "riot" was too small to be mentioned. Hate was not produced itself, instead, it needs a trigger. Everything has a "reason" and a "result". And "result" is a mirror for the "reason". 4321 showed you the "result", and he wanted you to realize the "reason" behind. But you turned the topic away.

Actually, nobody want to hate this and hate that all day long. We were built for happy and peaceful life, not for hate and war. But if we are implied that the peaceful life is no longer guarrenteed, we shall do something to avoid this. You should keep this in mind when you see the clips 4321 provided.

Thanks.

 

[deadhippo]

But I do want you to know is: most of well-educated young Chinese were not involved in the "riot" agaist Japan. They were reading in libraries, doing experiments in labs, doing researchs in institutes, surfing on the internet for cutting-edge knowledges, studing western civilizations......

hi innerfire, welcome to the forum

well, of course i dont know if the hooligans were educated or not
but i would suspect they are not the most intelligent creatures in the world
but anger makes many people stupid, me included
some of my points were that there is nothing positive to be achieved from either this display of violence or displaying this violence on the forum
there is a time and a place for everything and that was definitely not the place
i do believe in demonstrations
they have achieved a lot and will continue to do so

but in this case i think the effect will only be negative
i mean people are quick to judge and the first impression of this video is that chinese football fans are sore losers
i dont believe that this video represents china fairly and for that reason i think it shouldnt have been posted
and while i may not be the most intelligent guy in the world but i can tell by looking at the growth of the chinese economy that some of the most intelligent rational men and women live and work there
and i believe that in the future china may probably once again regain status as the most technologically developed and learned country in the world
but these displays can only slow the process down

frankly an apology from japan, sincere or no, will do little to appease the pain and sufferering they inflicted on chinese people all those years before
china needs to move on
and by move on, i dont mean forget, i mean learn
and instead of demanding apologies from other countries china should start improving the standards of living for its citizens and of course apologise for crimes commited by china and the chinese government and make sure china itself never commits these kinds of crimes either against its own citizens or another nations
and if other countries saw these acts of repentence and displays of virtue maybe they would follow suit and apologise for their past crimes (just an idea)

and i dont blame the people for rioting
i dont think it is because of a lack of education either but rather becasue of miseducation
i would blame the government though if they condoned this kind of behaviour

Comparing to Japan's performance, the "riot" was too small to be mentioned. Hate was not produced itself, instead, it needs a trigger. Everything has a "reason" and a "result". And "result" is a mirror for the "reason". 4321 showed you the "result", and he wanted you to realize the "reason" behind. But you turned the topic away.
Thanks.

compared to japan's performance if what i read is true (sorry, i dont know much about japan-china history) this riot was indeed insignificant

but lets not compare it to history for a moment
let it stand alone and examine it under present conditions
i think then it is significant
it tells us that a certain element in china has not learned that violence is not the solution
they havent learned from their mistakes or the mistakes of others

i had no intention of turning the topic away
if 4321 had made his point clear i may not have posted
but it wasnt clear, which i stated in previous posts
i still think this video will only have a negative impact, i fact i think ill make a poll and put a link here in a minute

We are not as good as you currently, I admit, but we are on our way now.

im not so sure what you mean by this
but if you are talking about education standards, im from a small country so its much easier to control such a thing
and while its common knowledge that the standard of education in china is pretty low i think we should look at the rate of improvement to better understand whats happening in china

click here to see poll

 

[lexico]

but if you are talking about education standards, im from a small country so its much easier to control such a thing
and while its common knowledge that the standard of education in china is pretty low i think we should look at the rate of improvement to better understand whats happening in china

I'm no expert in the area of education, but something seems to be amiss in your statement. Do you get news out of China ? How do you know that education in China is backward ? From hearsay ? Then it is not common knowledge, but common ignorance based on undereducation on world history/geography. So basically you've made a sweeping statement on China which only comes back to you.

Of course there was a period of backwardness during the Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution in education. But has education not improved tremendously ?
I think it would be unfair to judge Chinese education in one sweeping blanket statement of "backward."
There are quite a few Korean school children who go to China solely for the purpose of broadening their educational background. And I am pretty sure it's not just the Mandarin langauge their parents have in mind.

 

[deadhippo]

I'm not an expert in this area; of course there was a period of backwardness during the Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution in education. But has education not improved tremendously ?
I think it would be unfair to judge Chinese education in one sweeping blanket statement of "backward."
There are quite a few Korean school children who go to China solely for the purpose of broadening their educational background. And I am pretty sure it's not just the Mandarin language their parents have in mind.

i in no way meant to imply that chinese education is backward
i was talking about the standard, what i meant is that not enough chinese people have access to higher education
and when i said we should look at the rate of improvement i was referring to the fact that many more chinese people have a good education today than 10 years ago, which cannot be said for many western countries
for evidence of this you just have to look at the no. of IT and Finance jobs in china today compared to before
regarding these improvements i feel china has to be commended

But has education not improved tremendously ?

that was my point
(first time to quote the same sentence twice in a post)

hey Lexico
i too don't know too much about this era in chinese history
just some things that i picked up here and there
but i think its not so important (what i mean is that my knowledge of chinese history is not important rather than chinese history not being important)
because i believe in the now
i believe that what we do now is much more important than what we (or our ancestors) have done in the past
our present actions show who we are and what we have learned
our past actions more often than not display our immaturity and foolishness

 

[lexico]

DeadHippo

Okay; sorry for being too nit-picking on words; but if I were a Chinese, I might have felt, well, "a bit looked down upon ?" I understand you didn't mean it that way.
I appreciate taking it gracefully, and taking the effort to explain; that really makes a difference. Thanks.

Lexico