How terrible!Japanese~look and listen.

[4321go]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think 4321go, not familiar with this forum, thought the smile meant "I'm mad at you ! or You are mad !" Just a misunderstanding... *shrugs*

Haha,when I quote ,I can't see the smilies but the code of the smilies,ie, = : m a d : .
That's why I misunderstanding the sentences.

 

[Duo]

well there you go, the "peaceful" duo never calls anyone mad for no reaon
and thx to lexico for trying to mediate the situation, you shoulda been a diplomat

 

[lexico]

Haha,when I quote ,I can't see the smilies but the code of the smilies,ie, = : m a d : .
That's why I misunderstanding the sentences.

Wow, that explains it all. But I don't know how to fix it... maybe Kirei/or other mod. might know ?

 

[lonesoullost3]

I also think that looks .

 

[deadhippo]

well, what was the point of the video again
im a bit lost
you are telling japan to repent because there are football hooligans in china
or because chinese people cant control their rage when their team loses a game so they want to tell japan to die and trash japanese diplomats cars

im sure im missing something

 

[lonesoullost3]

well, what was the point of the video again
im a bit lost
you are telling japan to repent because there are football hooligans in china
or because chinese people cant control their rage when their team loses a game so they want to tell japan to die and trash japanese diplomats cars

im sure im missing something

We never did get down to what the video was about . Though yes, it has been suggested it's about sports.

 

[lexico]

We never did get down to what the video was about . Though yes, it has been suggested it's about sports.

That's really humours; we are up to post no. 32, and we still don't know for sure what we are discussing (or dissing and cussing) !
Maybe someone fluent in both Japanese and Chinese can clue us in.

 

[Duo]

the craziness of online discussions i tell you.... where you can luv or hate somone just based on their words, if that isn't like the most unbiased thing ever, then i don't know what is

 

[lexico]

the craziness of online discussions i tell you.... where you can luv or hate somone just based on their words, if that isn't like the most unbiased thing ever, then i don't know what is

Well said duo, well said. I think this is the perfect moment to reflect upon what we are doing.

We are here to discuss, not to change things.

(in paraphrase; I'm sure he said something like that somewhere)

Nevertheless, things do change even just a little; like getting to know someone better; finding little bits of knowledge; getting somewhat better informed every day; a little better controlled; a bit smarter in communicating; forgetting an oponent's transgressions just a little and take him/her off ignore...eventually. Are these not improvements ?
But the most satisfying of all is to find a common spirit--even after a hot debate or two. The hell with differences; won't mean a thing in a while; and then all will be buried in the archives in a 100 yrs.

 

[masayoshi]

I don't know what's all the fuss about in this thread. The video downloads at less than 1kB/s and I'm on a fast LAN!

Anyway, I'd like to say that the mainland Chinese are making a fuss over Japan for no reason at all. I'm Chinese myself but not mainlander. China now has the means to fend off an attack by Japan (if any at all!!). It's not like 60 years ago when the divide between the 2 countries was so great. China is a nuclear power, did you forget that?

OK before I start deviating completely, would someone who saw the video please say exactly what it's all about? That'll help greatly I think



EDIT: Watched it. Bunch of anti-Japan Chinese hooligans chanting "Little Japan! Die!" in Beijing on the 7th (month??) ... something to do with Japanese embassy. Maybe it was near. Is it connected to the anti-Japan riots not long ago? Can someone who knows Japanese provide more clarification?

This is unnecessary venting. Japan of today is not responsible for WW2 actions. It can't go to war because its own constitution prevents it from doing so. What would they repent for?

Sure there are more persuasive ways of making politicians pressure Yasukuni to remove the ashes of the criminals from their shrine than these riots. They only demonstrate blind hatred and this leads to nowhere

Would mainlanders stop being puppets, sit down, clear their minds and think for their own for once? If possible, go visit Japan and interact with the locals to see if really they don't regret WW2 past

 

[deadhippo]

you are telling japan to repent because there are football hooligans in china
or because chinese people cant control their rage when their team loses a game so they want to tell japan to die and trash japanese diplomats cars

well to quote myself for the first time
this is what happened and this is what the video is about
thats why i was puzzled
i think the first post should have been
"football hooligans in China ...repent"

this was some chinese football fans reaction after losing to Japan in some cup

 

[4321go]

....the way to express anger!
Not only for the football,but also for...

How to say... "make use of a subject to elaborate one's own ideas"

 

[lexico]

well to quote myself for the first time
this is what happened and this is what the video is about
thats why i was puzzled
i think the first post should have been
"football hooligans in China ...repent"

this was some chinese football fans reaction after losing to Japan in some cup

I think I begin to get the picture; and you do have a point, deadhippo.
Although the damaging actions and words of hatred deserve at least some criticism, what we must not forget is the profound degree and duration of violation they had to suffer; the Chinese people, Chinese territories, and Chinese sovereignty that had been abused over the 106 yrs starting with the Opium Wars.

The First Opium War was a trade-inspired war between the United Kingdom and the Qing Empire in China from 1839 to 1842. It is often seen as the beginning of European imperial hegemony towards China. The conflict began a long history of Chinese resentment toward Western society that still has remnants today.

I am not about to launch a history lecture which I am not qualified to give; but merely point out that time after time, China's sovereignty was neglected, violated, and abused; and many developed nations took part in the aggression as a school of piranyjas take their small bites off a river-crossing horse unto death.

Although the Qing Dynasty, the sovereign house at the time, was also to blame for its backwardness, corruption, and inability to cope with the challenges of "Western" hegemony, the 106 yrs of continuous assault on China has been a painful history in succession page after page down to 1945. Regardless of all the efforts of the Chinese people to modernise and to establish themselves in the part of the globe they had inherited from their forefathers for millenia, the unrelenting bites of colonial powers gave China little chance to improve itself in changements China would have been capable of but for Western interference which eventually opened the doors wide open for radical revolutionaries to take over.

When the "West," including Russia, the US and Japan, by their savage colonialist assaults, have played key roles in the bringing down of Old China, and practically helping the current PRC come into power, how would an average Chinese person feel, whose country has continuously been denied security and self-determination for 106 yrs, feel at further insults coming from a "Westerner," an "American," or a "Japanese" ?

From what I see, the Chinese people have been extremely graceful about it all amid the new sprouting businesses, bustling with foreigners coming in "again" along the golden cities of coastal China; this time as peace-loving, non-agressive individuals. These foreigners who come for mutually benefiting business are none to blame, and not to forget the common but age old tradition of Chinese hospitality. Yet when the idea of Chinese nation becomes the subject, there is deep sorrow, shame, and anger that each conscious Chinese individual must deal with, to soften, and to overcome in order to face each new day as a normal person, and not overwhelmed in sadness or twisted in anger.

You might say that I am exaggerating; that I am extrapolating beyond my means. Possibly. But I believe it is best for at least another 106 yrs from 1945 for foreigners to be graceful when a group of Chinese citizens or expatriates take to the streets in protest to the injustices they, their parents, grand parents, and great grand parents had to suffer, often paying the price of backwarness in Chinese blood. That would roughly calculate 2051; ie. if one yr of violation could be healed by 1 yr of peace and prosperity.

So please be gentle and graceful, all non-Chinese members; they are struggling to heal the wounds, and without killing anyone or invading any (more) neighbors in retaliation. Instead of criticising or ridiculing, could we not ache in conscience for the human tragedies that hurt the nation for more than a century ? Help China heal its wounds; let people shout out their anger and frustration at the unspeakably cruel history that violated the Chinese people for so long. For every angry shout shouted in the streets, let us be thankful that it was not a war cry with arms in their hands. Even more so, let us be thankful that any kind of healing was possible at all.

*facing the colonialist agressors of 1839-1945, "REPENT !" *

They are mostly dead and gone; but we could afford that much freedom. It's called freedom of expression, and understandable too. Even the PRC would dare not interfere with these rightful protests even if they seemed extreme -- but to call them extreme would be lacking in historical imagination, understanding, and empathy.

 

[masayoshi]

....the way to express anger!
Not only for the football,but also for...

How to say... "make use of a subject to elaborate one's own ideas"

Anger against what my friend?? Losing a football match against another team?? Oh man, that's so childish! Sport and politics are not to be mixed and supporters should be fair play and accept defeat. That's the way to keep our heads up, not rioting ...

I am not about to launch a history lecture ...

... understanding, and empathy.

I must say you write well. I think you analyse pretty well that "anger"/frustration that has been pent up and that is now being unleashed, triggered partly by some of Japan's leaders faux pas and partly by nationalist propaganda, whenever the occasion presents.

I can understand but I don't approve at all of the violent methods. Just like I can understand what drives Islamic terrorists but despise their methods. Showing aggression towards Japan is now futile. It's very counter-productive since Koizumi and co won't change as it can show they're bowing to Chinese thugs

 

[lexico]

I must say you write well. I think you analyse pretty well that "anger"/frustration that has been pent up and that is now being unleashed, triggered partly by some of Japan's leaders faux pas and partly by nationalist propaganda, whenever the occasion presents.

Thanks. You seem to say that the demostrations had mixed elements as always, and that the so-called "instigators" might not have been motivated by the best of reasons.

While admitting to the aspects you highlighted, I would say, with the rising national per capita income of China coupled with its individual citizen's awareness of freedom of thought & speech, the faux pas of Japanese leadership returned amplified by 1.6 billion thinking heads will be sorted out by the Japanese voters, while China can sort out its internal historical accuracy out of whatever harmful+just propaganda they have been exposed to.

I prefer to have faith in the ultimate wisdom of the educated citizenry rather than despair at the manipulative operations of the elite as in the conventional model of society be it Chinese, Japanese, or other.

I can understand but I don't approve at all of the violent methods.

I believe we are in general agreement. Nevertheless I would think "violent" is a rather strong word. To rape, kill, and maim is violent while angry shouts of condemnation is not. To ease the pain, we as outsiders, would do best to be civil in our protest to the regrettable (not violent) means of protest.

Just like I can understand what drives Islamic terrorists but despise their methods. Showing aggression towards Japan is now futile. It's very counter-productive since Koizumi and co won't change as it can show they're bowing to Chinese thugs

Whoa, sorry !
Please do NOT compare the demonstrations with "Islamic terrorist" attacks which conjures up images of 9/11 and 7/7. That is simply unfair; you might be accused of venting your frustration from the threat to security that the people in UK, and the free world by extension, are experiencing onto this Chinese demonstration.

Again "aggression" is to rape, kill, and maim; while angry protests and venting frustration at the "faux pas" is really not aggression. Strong words and strong ways of expressing protests would be more accurate. The Chinese, I believe, are aware that it might not look favorable upon themselves by international standards; but they protest what they feel deserve protesting. Regarding Koizumi, let the common wisdom of the average Japanese citizen decide at the next election; Koizumi & co. need not move a finger be be ousted out of office at the ballot.

I would refrain from calling your compatriots "thugs"; who are you against, the PRC, the CCP, the Chinese citizens, or the demonstrators ? After all; once the nagging conflicts have subsided, wouldn't you someday embrace your own people ?

 

[deadhippo]

hi Lexico
I am from Ireland
a country which i believe has suffered a great more at the hands of the english than the chinese have at the hands of japanese relatively speaking
but if my fellow countrymen did a similar thing after losing a soccer game i would be disgusted

and like the recent attacks on the japanese embassy with the police standing by
if this happened in my country most of my countrymen would be furious at the police not doing their jobs

 

[lexico]

hi Lexico
I am from Ireland
a country which i believe has suffered a great more at the hands of the english than the Chinese have at the hands of Japanese relatively speaking.

Hi, Deadhippo from Ireland.
I am from S.Korea; we've met earlier in the Ainu/Samurai thread.

I don't want to sound cold, but to what degree is relative ?
Just for comparison, I found these major historical events noteworthy. My knowledge of Irish history lacking, I have failed to identify large scale killings of the Irish people by the English with the exception of the deaths during the Irish "rebellion" of 1798 acc. to Wikipedia. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what is missing in the historical outline in Wikipedia "Ireland."

Anglo-Norman and English control (1172 to 1800)
Irish Rebellion of 1798
death toll range from almost 10,000 to well over 30,000
Union with Britain, 1801 to 1922
1922 to the present (in the Free State/the Republic)
1921 to 1971 in Northern Ireland: "A Protestant State and a Protestant People"
1971 to 1998 in Northern Ireland: Direct Rule
1998 to the present: Devolution, more Direct Rule

Of course Irish society suffered "a collapse of the Gaelic social and political superstructure at the end of the 17th century" with the result that Irish royalty and a considerable portion of Irish nobility fled to Catholic refuge countries on the continent, but the kind of large scale civillian/POW massacre as seen during WWII IJA invasion of China is not there. Please provide info to back up your statement, "The Irish suffered a great more at the hands of the English than the Chinese have at the hands of Japanese." When compared to the 10 million Chinese civilian deaths, I don't see how Ireland's tragedy would be considered "relatively" greater. Are you thinking about deaths per square mile or km2 ?

Notwithstanding the possibility that the Wiki info on "Ireland" may be biased; it records that there was an Irish retaliation on English civilians:

Irish Rebellion of 1641: English casualties, genocide ?

The number of British Protestants killed in the early months of the uprising is controversial, early Parliamentarian pamphlets claiming that over 100,000 settlers had lost their lives. In fact, recent research has shown that the number is far more modest, in the region of 4000 or so killed, though many thousands were expelled from their homes. The general pattern around the country was that the violence of the attacks intensified the longer the rebellion went on. At first, there were beatings and robbing of local Protestants, then house burnings and expulsions and finally widespread killings, most of them concentrated in Ulster. The bitterness created by the massacres of 1641 proved extremely long lasting. Ulster Protestants commemorated the anniversary of the rebellion every October for over two hundred years after the event. Images of the massacres of 1641 are still represented on the banners of the Orange Order. Even today, the killings, despite being a very small fraction of the foreign settler population in Ireland are thought of by some as an example of attempted genocide.

 

[lonesoullost3]

We don't know exactly what they are saying the video, but we have determined it is about a football match.

Depending on the exact harshness of their words, there may not be any cause for this kerfuffle in the first place. Football is a highly emotional sport where loyalties run high. Don't believe me? Look at Manchester or Liverpool after a game between the two

As much as I agree with you lexico about the century of foreign incursion on Chinese territory, there is still a proper way to direct verbal anger. What good does blaming the current government for the transgressions of the past do? Surely it lets the population (and perhaps the government) let off steam and emotions. However, by directing it towards the current government and people of Japan, it only raises animosity in that country as well. This in turn will turn the anger of the past into the anger of the present and the future. We can already see the effects of this in present day politics: the countries' inability to properly (the definition of which can be debated) apologize or accept apologies for actions during WW2, as well as the sanction of "partial-truth" historical textbooks.

I believe the solution (as idealistic as it sounds) would be for both countries to realize who exactly were the transgressors of these past deeds. The current government of Japan is not to blame for the atrocities of WW2, and therefore should not be the target of Chinese anger. Similarly, Japan's government should realize that they are not to blame for the actions of their predecessors. This would allow them to absorb these protests with understanding and, hopefully, sympathy. Furthermore, it would also provide a starting point for an apology which would hopefully be acceptable by the Chinese government.

What can I say - I'm an idealist at times . Such a simple action becomes entangled in political "intrigue", status, and circumstance making it seemingly impossible from the government's point of view - and I think this is the main reason for the current state of relations between China and Japan.

 

[Nebiki]

Forgive me if I am wrong but:
The Irish were treated badly (as second class citizens) by the English for a long time, many Irish immigrants in the late 18th to early 19th century were often looked down upon by the English and were often subjected to criticism, given undesirable jobs and bad pay. Of course, you can't over look the fact that the English invaded Ireland as they did Scotland and there was much fighting to secure the Republic of Ireland (south of Ireland) that we know today.
Even though the Irish were a great economical strength to Britain :|.
Perhaps not as badly treated as the Chinese were treated by the Japanese but still it happened.
Isn't history fun? ^^

 

[deadhippo]

Hi Lexico
I can understand your indignation if you think it was some baseless comment
by relatively i meant regarding time and the percentage of our population that was killed

so the struggles started in the late 11th century with an invasion of normans from what we call today britain and since then soldiers came to finght irish people and they even sent armies to fight each other at some points
they say englands biggest civil war was carried out in ireland "the battle of the boyne"

well i guess the first major scale atrocities happened when cromwell came to ireland
when he arrived the population was about 1.5 million
within 9 years (when he died) they say the population was down to 500,000
this includes an estimated 60,000 sent into slavery
this wasnt the first or last time irish people were sent into slavery by the british

he also introduce the penal laws

Under the Penal Laws, Catholics (read Irish) could not practice their faith, hold office, carry weapons, teach school, purchase or lease land, marry a Protestant, work at any scientific endeavor or own a horse worth more than five pounds. If you were lucky enough to be a Catholic horse owner and a Protestant approached you with an offer to buy your horse for the sum of five pounds you had to sell. If you refused you would be executed.

irish peoples lands were confiscated and given to the british (plantations)

the irish people became tenants on their own land and their farms became smaller and smaller but the population was steadily growing (being good catholics ;-)

as the population grew the food went into short supply until the introduction of a new type of potato that could grow almost anywhere
when i mean the food went into short supply, i mean for the irish tenant farmers because they were eating only potatoes at this stage
there pice of land was too small and the tribute to the landlord to big to be able to use the land for anything else
the landlords had been exporting beef and grain to england
when the second great famine came it is estimated that the population decreased from 8 milion to 6 million
half from death and half from emmigration
some say half of the emigrants died in the coffin ships
the british didnt cause the potato blight
it was caused by a fungus
but the british depriving ireland of food grown in ireland caused widespread starvation and death
and also british governement policy made it very difficult for food to enter ireland

i could go on about other events both modern and old includind details of rapes and murders and such like but its late, my memory is hazy and its pointless, i think you can get the picture from what ive written

see also black and tans
guildford four
birmingham six

and the fact that ireland is still partly colonized

to conclude this disjointed piece (im tired) by relatively
i meant that i think that japan has never reduced the chinese population by two thirds
and didnt colonise a large part of and sometimes all of for 800 years or so

NOTE: im not bitter about this it was mostly before my time and i have nothing against english people
also im not saying that chinese people didnt have a hard time under japans thumb but what i am saying is that it is no excuse to act as a hooligans and especially out of anger at losing a football match

*edit
regarding the "genocide" of 4000 british people you should be think about where the english people were and how they got there, its not like irish people went over to england to kill them

*edit #2
cromwell in ireland
everybody seems to have different figures but the story is still the same

 

[4321go]

Another Comparisonﾂ：Jew and German. ..

And thanks to deadhippo for introducing the knowledge about Ireland.How about the Northern Ireland?

I'd say:the key of the difference is the present. Chinese is tolerant,In fact ,China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.

Can Japan be more frank now?I hope the U.S give more pressure on Japan~If the U.S break silence,Japan will be more frank!Japan now is right-leaning.

After all ,we can not depend on others.We must be strong,and everything will be settled easily!

 

[lexico]

Although we are discussing as if to compare the Chinese genocide and the Irish genocide, I think we both are well aware that it is primarily pointless to compare who suffered more for all human suffering is to be respected, not belittled or exaggerated. But knowing, and sharing, the magnitude of the crimes is in the sevice of humanity as one species. To use it as an excuse for "rioting" would be pointless likewise.

Hi Lexico
I can understand your indignation if you think it was some baseless comment
by relatively i meant regarding time and the percentage of our population that was killed

so the struggles started in the late 11th century with an invasion of normans ...
well i guess the first major scale atrocities happened when cromwell came to ireland
when he arrived the population was about 1.5 million
within 9 years (when he died) they say the population was down to 500,000
this includes an estimated 60,000 sent into slavery
this wasnt the first or last time irish people were sent into slavery by the british

he also introduce the penal laws
...
and the fact that ireland is still partly colonized
...
by relatively i meant that i think that japan has never reduced the chinese population by two thirds and didnt colonise a large part of and sometimes all of for 800 years or so.

Thanks for being patient with me, and sharing your knowledge; I meant no disregard for the plights of the Irish the degree of which I did not well-understand.

NOTE: im not bitter about this it was mostly before my time and i have nothing against english people
also im not saying that chinese people didnt have a hard time under japans thumb but what i am saying is that it is no excuse to act as a hooligans and especially out of anger at losing a football match.

I understand that you believe in knowing, but rationalising, and moving forward; and that might be one of the better options given the circumstances. I unfortunately don't, unless at least a satisfying recognition be given to the wrongs of the past. Regarding those wrongs of the past, I find it insulting that there are people who try to whitewash it and minimise it to the point of saying, "It never happened/It was a fabrication by the Allied Poweres/the Tribunal," or "I/They didn't do it," and "I/they weren't born then." I call those historical perjury on, and evasion of duty to bear truthful witness to, genocidal crimes. I, therefore, refuse to let go till full recognition be given. That, as a fellow human being of both the victims and the aggressors, is my last resort to preserve sanity.

*edit
regarding the "genocide" of 4000 british people you should be think about where the english people were and how they got there, its not like irish people went over to england to kill them.

Please understand; I meant no intention to belittle the Irish suffering; at first I thought it was indeed an Irish genocide...Still I thought I'd run it by you to see what you thought. I apologise if it was inflammatory.

*edit #2
cromwell in ireland
everybody seems to have different figures but the story is still the same

I really appreciate your taking the time to dig these up and sharing on the forum. I always believe in exposing the wound, before any healing can happen. It will not look pretty, the faint hearted might not be able to take it.

The Great Terrors

In 1520, when Henry VIII broke with Rome, it added religion to the bias against the Catholic Irish. Under Henry's daughter, the murderous Queen Elizabeth I (1533-1603), the killing fields of Ireland ran red with the blood of innocent victims. It is estimated 1.5 million Irish peasants were starved or ﾂ"put to the swordﾂ" and much of their lands seized by English predators, while she reigned.

By the time the zealot Oliver Cromwell arrived on the scene, the Irish were ripe for more carnage . ﾂ"It has pleased God to bless our endeavors,ﾂ" he wrote of the mass slaughter in 1649, by his Puritan troops of 3,552 Irish inhabitants of the seaport town of Drogheda, just north of Dublin. He pompously continued, ﾂ"I am persuaded that this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches.ﾂ" This Drogheda massacre is one of the leading examples of the insidious British policy of ethnic cleansing in Ireland. Another is Cromwell's sacking of Wexford and the killing of 2,000 of its citizens.

The infamous ﾂ"Cromwellian Settlementsﾂ" followed his conquest of Ireland. Millions of acres of land (41 percent of Antrim, 26 percent of Down, 34 percent of Armagh and 38 percent of Monaghan) were allocated to English Protestant settlers. The landowners of Irish birth were either killed, banished or forced out to Connaught in the west of Ireland, where it was hoped ﾂ"they would starve to death.ﾂ" A Cromwell biographer labeled this massive confiscation of Irish lands, ﾂ"by far the most wholesale effort to impose on Ireland the Protestant faith and English ascendancy.ﾂ" The British policy of colonizing Ireland with Protestants still has repercussions which are felt today on the streets of Belfast.

>From 1649 to 1652, one-third of the population of Ireland was destroyed. Petty, an English historian says, ﾂ"660,000 Irish people were killed.ﾂ"[13] Twenty thousand Irish boys and girls also were sold into slavery to the West Indies. The Irish peasant farmers that survived were forced to pay rent to their usurpers. Once prosperous home grown industries were also destroyed because they ﾂ"competed with British factories.ﾂ"

The memory of the holocausts under Elizabeth I and Cromwell have been forever seared into the psyche of the Irish race. Cromwell's evil idea that Irish Catholics were ﾂ"barbarous wretchesﾂ" has, too, unfortunately, passed into the British mindset.

Parliament reacted to Cromwell's crime against humanity in Ireland by passing an infamous Resolution that legitimized ethnic cleansing. It stated, ﾂ"The House doth approve the execution done at Drogheda, as an act both of justice to them and mercy to others who may be warned by it.ﾂ"

After the shaky British monarchy was restored in 1660, under Charles II, the vicious propaganda against Irish Catholics continued unabated. Many of the ﾂ"vilest pamphletsﾂ" hyping the threat of a supposed ﾂ"Popish Plotﾂ" against the Crown were printed in Holland.

When James II, Charles' brother, succeeded him as King of England and Ireland in 1685, the hopes of Irish Catholics rose. His defeat, however, by the forces of William of Orange, at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, on July 12, brought renewed disaster. More confiscations of Irish lands followed and the adoption into law of the notorious ﾂ"Penal Lawsﾂ" in the late 1690s. Their net effect was to hold that, ﾂ"The law does not presume any such person to exist as an Irish Roman Catholic.ﾂ"

As time passed, there were periodic, but failed, rebellions in Ireland. In 1845, with nationalist aspirations at their lowest ebb, the moans of the starving were heard. The potato crop was blighted and famine stalked the land.

The Irish Genocide

Author Thomas Gallagher sets the scene for this unspeakable tragedy in his moving testament to the Irish dead, Paddy's Lament:

ﾂ"A famine unprecedented in the history of the world, a chapter in human misery to harrow the human heart was about to start, and even little children could see its quick, sure approach in the nakedly fearful eyes and faces of their parents.ﾂ"

By the mid-19th century, Ireland was a country of eight million, mostly peasants. As a result of years of exploitation, they survived as tenant farmers and were never far from economic disaster. They were forced to exist on a single crop: the potato. A disease turned the potato into a foul slime. When the Irish masses turned to the British government for relief, they received the back of London's hand.

Meanwhile, ﾂ"Food, from 30 to 50 shiploads per day, was removed at gunpoint (from Ireland) by 12,000 British constables, reinforced by 200,000 British soldiers, warships, excise vessels, and coast guards... Britain seized from Ireland's producers tens of millions of head of livestock, tens of millions of tons of flour, grains, meat, poultry and dairy products-enough to sustain 18-million persons.ﾂ"

Gallagher estimates two million died from the famine. Writer Chris Fogarty, however, places the numbers ﾂ"murdered at approximately 5.16 million... making it the Irish holocaust.ﾂ" Distinguished legal scholars, like Professors Charles Rice of Notre Dame U. and Francis A. Boyle, U. of Illinois, believe that under International Law, that the British pursued a barbarous policy of mass starvation in Ireland from 1845-50, and that such conduct constituted ﾂ"genocide.ﾂ"

I would be interested to know how the schools and textbooks in Eire, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England describe, evaluate, and teach the English atrocities on the Irish on the historical Ireland, ie. N.Ireland and the Republic of Eire.

 

[lexico]

I understand the anger (if only by imagination) the Chinese people might feel, and you have every right to be, and to share your rightful indignation with your people, and perhaps those who understand the urgent call for justice. Unfortunately, strong (too strong ) message will get others offended regardless of the central message. I think it will be misunderstood on this forum. Sorry.

 

[4321go]

May be you are right ~hehe ~I learned more~ Thanks ,and I have deleted that Flash link!

 

[lonesoullost3]

Interesting Tidbits

I found this on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the PRC website:

The Japanese people were also the victims of the war. It has been always the policy of our party and government to draw a clear distinction between the few militarists and Japanese people.

It seems to me that the Japanese people, government and militarists have become one and the same (as 4321go's posts and news clips have shown). So perhaps the government follows these principles, but the people of China (obviously not all of them) do not. Surely it is perfectly fine to disagree with your government, but why does it appear that this policy does not come through in present day political relations as well? The site is dated as last updated in 2002.

I'd say:the key of the difference is the present. Chinese is tolerant, In fact, China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.

A note about the diplomatic relations - Japan only established relations after the US took the first move. Actually, Nixon angered Japan by establishing relations without warning them. This was called the First Nixon Shock (1972). In essence, it was the US's move to finally establish relations with China that allowed Japan to. Japan would never have gone ahead without the US's support (or at least the US doing it first). Though, the Japanese did want to establish a relationship with China for awhile.

And another side note (I was looking for more information on Sino-Japanese relations and I stumbled across this interesting tidbit):

Wiki:

A most recent poll in Dec 2004 shows, given a referendum vote on independence, unification or becoming a state of U.S., 41% of Taiwanese residents support independence, 24% choose unification and a 15% would be in favor of becoming a 51st state of U.S

51st state? That'd be interesting.