How many people posting here are actually living in Japan?

[Pachipro]

I could give my standard dissertation on why I normally refuse to say how long I've been in Japan. Trying to decide if it's worth stepping that many toes or not....

You should do it Mike as I'd also like to hear your reasons why you normally refuse to state your length of stay in Japan for my own curiosity. Stating your length of stay in Japan, along with your familiarity of the language and customs etc., kind of gives and added emphasis to some of the answers in posts. In other words, one can read your answer(s) and say, "Oh yeah, what does this guy know?" After looking at your profile and seeing that you are residing in Japan and have lived there a long time, some might say, "Well, maybe he knows what he's talking about and I should heed what he/she says."

I don't think it gives anyone bragging rights as Mars Man said, and I don't think it makes anyone an expert for the reasons Mikawa Ossan mentioned. To me it just shows that you know what you're talking about and I feel that most people will respect that and try to learn from your answers and your individual experience(s). (By "you" and "your" I mean anyone who states their length of stay in Japan).

After all we are not all like Maciamo and can master the language, including reading and writing, and the customs and traditions like he has in a year or two and post replies like he has lived there for many years. For some of us, like me, it does take some years and I respect him for that accomplishment.

As the old saying goes, "Experience is the best teacher" and what better way to learn than from someone who "has been there and done that?"

 

[yukio_michael]

I personally, would like to hear the Mike Cash monogatari... there are so many experiences that some of you old timers in Japan have had that none of us will ever have... from a time and a place that in some ways doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Gaijinian]

If you looked at his post about his Japanese skill after living 20 years in Japan, you'd think he's a wannabe himself.

I kind of thought the same thing...

And Mike, I don't think I've ever seen you post in Japanese. ﾅｽ窶楪、ﾂ好ﾅ?ﾃｯﾂ心窶堋ｪ窶ｹﾂｭ窶堋｢窶堙ｱ窶堙?、窶堋ｿ窶堙･窶堙≫?堙??｢ﾂｷ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｹ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｳ窶堋｢窶堙仰。窶堙??堋､窶堋ｵ窶堙??牢窶漏窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙?鞘?倪?堋ｩ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？

 

[Glenn]

He's posted the odd word here and there, and he's repeated what others have said in Japanese at least in chat. But I'm curious as to the exact reason why he doesn't post in Japanese. He did on the Maktos forum (I know, you probably hate being reminded of that place, eh Mike?). I have a guess, but I'll wait to see if he answers the question first.

 

[Mike Cash]

Pachipro and Mars Man have already largely hit upon the reason I normally refuse to say how long I've been in Japan. A glance at my profile will give a concise version of my thoughts on the matter.

One thing I have always detested, and which seems to be an almost universal behavior among foreigners in Japan, is the tendency to turn length of Japanese stay, breadth of Japan experiences, and depth of Japanese language knowledge into some sort of contest. The pecking order must be established.

One of the chief things I have come to realize is that the length of time one has spent in Japan is a reliable indicator of one thing, and one thing only....the amount of time one has been in Japan. It is, in practically all cases, an utterly meaningless statistic.

There are those who function entirely immersed in Japanese society. There are those with one foot in Japan and one foot somewhere else. There are those (military, and associated hangers-on) who for all practical purposes may as well be in the States. There are so many levels, shades, and nuances of what one does here and how/where one lives here that attempting to make some sort of valid judgment or comparison based on length of stay is strictly an apples-n-oranges proposition.

So why ask? To find one's place on the pecking order, of course. Unless one has been here long enough that he knows practically anyone he asks will have been here a shorter time. What is the purpose in that case? Wienie wagging, pure and simple. The alpha dog hiking his leg higher than the rest of the pack and leaving his peestain the highest on the hydrant.

Most people I know who have been in Japan 20+ years will refuse to tell folks how long they've been here. They've come to realize our various lives here aren't a contest. They're past the point of being fascinated with themselves for being here and wanting eveyone else to be fascinated with them, too. They've passed the point of needing to prove anything to themselves or anyone else.

That someone after 20+ years here still wants to make it a pissing contest and call out the "wanna-bes" tells me that the person must have a very shallow relation with and immersion into the country to still find such things interesting or to feel a need to assert his Japan-superiority over someone based on something as weak as length of stay. That he's managed to live like an adult while remaining functionally illiterate in Japanese only confirms that his relation very likely centers around spending his days on military bases, which afford the greatest opportunity for the least meaningful of stays.

As to why I don't post in Japanese here. Why should I?

I have all the opportunity to use Japanese I could possibly want, and more, in daily life. My workplace is 100% Japanese. My kids are Japanese monolingual. Most of my communications with my wife are in Japanese.

Also, I don't like the practice I see of threads sometimes switching in mid-stream to Japanese when it is known that one or more of the main participants in the thread will not be able to understand it for one reason or another. It's exclusionary and rude.

 

[Mars Man]

Ah !! A response, an answer, a reply well worth waiting for, well worth its weight in experience and the test of time ! Thanks Mike for sharing that with us, with me.

And I vouch for the following as the best sentence in the testament:

There are so many levels, shades, and nuances of what one does here and how/where one lives here that attempting to make some sort of valid judgment or comparison based on length of stay is strictly an apples-n-oranges proposition.

And this, the best analogy:

The alpha dog hiking his leg higher than the rest of the pack and leaving his peestain the highest on the hydrant.

Although at the moment, I still hold the intention of the OP as being honest at heart, I greatly appreciate your perspective there, Mike. Well put !! MM

 

[Pachipro]

Great answer on all counts Mike. And straight to the point and honest. In alot of cases it is like a pissing contest and a pecking order as I have experienced it with foreigners and, like you, I rarely mentioned my length of stay in Japan after being there a while. There was no need to for that exact reason. Those that boasted about it and claimed "superiority" because of it I avoided.

And here, even though I do state my length of stay, it is for the reasons I mentioned above. A savvy reader, as well as regulars here, soon come to know who is bragging and who is not; who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't regardless of length of stay.

 

[Rich303]

Mike, I don't know you well, but you am da man !

It is important to remember that there are people on JREF with all different levels of understanding/knowledge, and no-one should be made to feel bad about it.
When I first read the original post I thought it was aimed at people like me, because I can only speak such a small amount of Japanese and have only had a couple of short visits.

The husband of the lady who runs my local Sushi restaurant is English.
He is married to a japanese woman, with all japanese staff and he has visited Japan plenty of times, and his level of Japanese speaking is no better than mine - but he seems to be genuinely interested (if a little bemused) by Japan and I don't respect him less because of it.
I met a girl in Japan who was getting married to a foreign guy (who was moving there) and he couldn't speak Japanese - wouldn't even eat Sushi.
I think he could make more of an effort, though.

I admit I mess around a bit and a lot of my posts are in the 'Chit Chat' section, but I think my interest in Japan is respectful, and I shouldn't need to validate myself by the length of time I've physically been there.
Thanks.

- Rich

 

[yukio_michael]

I think people have differing ideas of anonymity. I'm quite aware of what Mike speaks of in terms of superiority complexes, and I've seen this lauded at him from time to time, and probably will be again, and may have been even guilty of it myself, before I learned better of his character...

When speaking about Japan, and living there, it's hard not to get autobiographical, I think that's natural sometimes... just now I started talking about my interaction w/ billcollectors, etc, and thought about how either way that makes me look as if I'm trying to legitimise my point of view.

I think some people naturally do want to know that someone who is giving them advice, or, I'll even go far as to say an opinion on something they may be familiar with, that this word is comming from someone who actually knows a bit about what they are talking of.

But, as Mike says, length of stay in Japan is not an arbiter of that knowlege, so, we rely on rep points, and to some degree, people dicard your opinion, when you havent got over some few thousand posts... but these people mostly go away regardless... what is the use in their believing your point, or not?

When I use Japanese on Jref, I'm very concious of it being exclusionary, it is, after all, a largely English based forum--- but I also like to use it to learn, and I'm happy to start recognizing characters; I like sometimes to write new words I've learned, I never intend them to exclude people from the conversation.

Japan produces a level of misinformation through a sort of fog of popular-culture that is pretty recognizable to people who have either studied the country, it's (popular)culture, or been there, ...so, so--- when someone says that Japan has the 'highest standard of living' of any nation in the world, I know both that this is neither economically recorded in statistics, nor is it really true from having lived there and watched how people shopped for food & groceries, comparitively to other countries I've been to...

People's own ignorance generally precedes them if the speak enough. Now you've gotten at least a bit of my own.

 

[Mike Cash]

I would like to add that one of the benefits of remaining silent about how long one has been here is that eventually you run into the guy who figures that a half-dozen or so years puts him at the top of the totem pole.

Recently, on a usenet group I enjoy and which I won't identify openly here, a new friend popped in telling us he has been in Japan 7 years and asking for the others to chime in with how long they had been in Japan.

The thread eventually ran to 49 replies before dying. Interestingly, no one volunteered the requested info. It was sort of fun to see him refer to people who hadn't been here as long as himself as "short termers". The reason it was fun was because, unbeknownst to him, a good many of the people who replied to him have been in Japan for somewhere around 7 years also....if you only count the time they've spent asleep here.

It can be fun also to watch the gleam in somebody's eyes when he thinks he has you far and away outdone for length of stay. It's a good way to meet condescending know-it-all blowhards. Once upon a time when I cast pride to the wind and went to work for Nova I met just such a fellow. I believe he had been in Japan for about 6 months at the time, which was neither here nor there to me. One of the other teachers told him I had been with Nova for 3 days. Naturally, he took this to mean I had been in Japan for 3 days. His eyes lit up and the lectures began. I won't say how long I had been here at the time, but just for the sake of reference I'll share that I came to Nova after 5 years of working as a truck driver here. I let him prattle on and enjoy himself. I had no intention of bursting his bubble or giving him the actual facts of the matter. I was content to let him go on thinking I had been here 3 days. After all, what the hell difference did it make? Either way I was standing there working for Nova. Unfortunately, another more informed member of the staff came in and told him "Hey, he's been with Nova three days. He's been in Japan XX years".

 

[Pachipro]

Great story Mike and one I, and a few others I'm sure, can relate to. Those types are a hoot aren't they? The look in their eyes, and their demeanor afterwards when they eventually find out how long you yourself have been in Japan is priceless and to be remembered. (Not that one does it on purpose mind you). Sadly, they rarely become close with you after that and kind of despise you, if that is the right word. (By you I mean anyone who has been in the same situation).

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

....Are people really like that?

 

[Gaijinian]

As to why I don't post in Japanese here. Why should I?

Why even join a Japan forum at all, if you want to think that way... But no, I hear what you're saying, and you make many good points.

 

[Mike Cash]

Why even join a Japan forum at all, if you want to think that way... But no, I hear what you're saying, and you make many good points.

You know, some people come here because they're interested in J-Rocker's haircuts. Some because they're addicted to Japanese video games, anime, manga, or whatever. Some are thoroughly enamored of Japan and think it's the greatest place on the planet, despite never once having set foot in the place. Some wander by hoping to hook up with Japanese women. Some want to get advice on kanji for a tattoo.

There are all kinds of people here, for all kinds of reasons. They have Japanese ability ranging from native to zero. Why should my Japanese ability, be it good, bad, or indifferent be a factor in my participating here? I don't suggest that others use or not use Japanese. Where does anyone get off taking issue with my choice to make very sparse use of Japanese here?

If I seem a little peeved, rest assured I'm not taking your comments personally. It's just that this is the flip side of the crap that I get from Japanese people who think people like me are under some sort of obligation to be English teachers or translators.

 

[RockLee]

As to why I don't post in Japanese here. Why should I?

I agree, this board is mainly for foreigners who have an interest in Japanese things/Japan.

Also, I don't like the practice I see of threads sometimes switching in mid-stream to Japanese when it is known that one or more of the main participants in the thread will not be able to understand it for one reason or another. It's exclusionary and rude.

I hate that too, if they would just add a translation to it, it would be a lot more enjoyable to others.

Now that has been said, I'll try and see to it that people add a translation to what they post. (if it's in a non-japanese thread ofcourse)

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I have not been to japan yet, although would like to (when i can find and afford some japanese lessons ), i came to this forum though because there were a lot of people interested in japanese culture and way of life and so am i, and so i joined as a wanted to chat to more people who shared my interests.

Also, I don't like the practice I see of threads sometimes switching in mid-stream to Japanese when it is known that one or more of the main participants in the thread will not be able to understand it for one reason or another. It's exclusionary and rude.

Yeah that bugs me too, i know you can use online translaters and things, but even the best of them don't always do a great job of translating japanese into english into somthing readable at times. If you have something to say, say it in the same language as everyone else is primarily talking in- sometimes i am reading a good thread or ask what somthing is and somone posts a huge chunk of japanese writing which i cannot read at all .

 

[Mars Man]

窶堋ｨ窶堙坂?堙ｦ窶堋ｲ窶堋ｳ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ !! ﾂ I was just thinking that 窶堙?窶堋ｵ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙?鞘?倪?堋ｫ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙ｧﾂ、. . .

NO...JUST IN A PLAYFUL MOOD THIS MORNING !! no lynch mobs please !!

I agree absolutely about requesting, at least, that folks who use Japanese in the non-Japanese language areas, translate every thing into English too.
And I just wanted to mention, that regardless of the intent behind the OP, or that ones not having come back to this thread (at least so it seems), it has given us something to talk about. . . and that goes good with coffee and doughnuts on cool, cloudy May mornings like today. Ummm. . . delicious Mr. here. (oh that's like KFC or Mac...Mr. Doughnuts=Mr.)

That recent post was very well worded there Mike Cash !!

[the above Japanese = good morning; if one wanted to write in Japanese]

 

[Hachiro]

One of the chief things I have come to realize is that the length of time one has spent in Japan is a reliable indicator of one thing, and one thing only....the amount of time one has been in Japan. It is, in practically all cases, an utterly meaningless statistic.

Well said! I know numerous people that have been living in Japan for nearly 40 years now and speak hardly one word of Japanese. They live literally in their own little worlds and rarely come out to see how the rest live. Sad but true.

Why even join a Japan forum at all, if you want to think that way... But no, I hear what you're saying, and you make many good points.

From my point of view I think joining a place like this gives us an opportunity to help dispell many of the "urban legends" and "fallacies" that many people have about Japan. Who else is going to give you a fair, usually unbaised opinion about life here than the people who actually live here? Or would people rather have, all the sorry about this term, but "wannabe's" answering all the questions and giving their opinions?

Lastly what difference does it make if a long term resident here posts in Japanese or not? It's not like it's some kind of contest now is it? And to those that think that "writing" in Japanese is a pre-requisite to "proving" yourself here you are very mistaken.

So is being able to type in English a pre-requisite to knowing about life in the USA or some other English speaking country? I think there are those that would find fault with that logic as well.

 

[Hachiro]

Oh one other thing, the admin of this board wrote that I "lied" about my location, that is and of itself another story related to a different topic altogether. I changed my location one time to make a point about the flags and location, on another thread.

That lasted a total of about 12 hours at the most, I changed things back afterwards, after the admin explained the reasoning of the flags once again I changed them back on my own afterwards.

I think the admin, particularly maciamo is being very nitpicky about reputation points, purely because he did not thoroughly check the reasons that came about. His knee jerk reaction was unwarranted. Also if this was in the "wrong" location why not move the thread instead of playing children's games about reputation points. If you also notice I have them shut off purely becuase things like this, misunderstandings happen.

I highly resent the implication that I was lying, the admin/moderators know very well where one is posting from by checking the IP adresses.

To those that think I am a wannabe.....whatever. I really do not care what you think, I am who I am, and I have no desire to be a member of your clique.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Thank you, Hachiro!

I think part of the problem is what people mean by "wanna-be". I take it to mean someone trying to make him/herself look to be something they are obviously not.

Conversely, if someone does not try to make him/herself look to be something other than that person is, then they are not a "wanna-be" by any stretch of the imagination.

Regarding Hachiro, I don't think he is a wanna-be, because as far as I know, he has never made any claims about his Japanese ability. He merely has stated that he has lived in Japan for a number of years, and that he believes that such experience confers a person with a certain kind of knowledge.

Hardly a wanna-be.

As I said earlier, I do agree with Hachiro to a point. Actually being in a place does confer a certain amount of "hands on" experience with it. Whether one truly understands what is going on is a different story, but nonetheless...

I don't know of whom he was referring to in the OP, but especially after reading this recent reply, I at least am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. What he really seems to be taking issue with is people who are speaking out of their posteriors, so to speak.

 

[Hachiro]

Thank you, Hachiro!
I think part of the problem is what people mean by "wanna-be". I take it to mean someone trying to make him/herself look to be something they are obviously not.
Conversely, if someone does not try to make him/herself look to be something other than that person is, then they are not a "wanna-be" by any stretch of the imagination.
Regarding Hachiro, I don't think he is a wanna-be, because as far as I know, he has never made any claims about his Japanese ability. He merely has stated that he has lived in Japan for a number of years, and that he believes that such experience confers a person with a certain kind of knowledge.
Hardly a wanna-be.
As I said earlier, I do agree with Hachiro to a point. Actually being in a place does confer a certain amount of "hands on" experience with it. Whether one truly understands what is going on is a different story, but nonetheless...
I don't know of whom he was referring to in the OP, but especially after reading this recent reply, I at least am willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. What he really seems to be taking issue with is people who are speaking out of their posteriors, so to speak.

Thank you sir.... I could not have said it better.

I am not, nor ever have, claimed to know all there is to know about Japan, I am also not so arrogant as to make a claim that I know all there is to know about my home country as well.

What makes a board like this unique is the collective knowledge that people bring to the table, in helping others to understand a bit more about what life is here.

Oh also, I take people at face value when they make a post, I have rarely if ever gone to look through peoples profiles to see where or "who" they are, I make my judgments and formulate my opinions on what they post here, nothing else.

 

[Mars Man]

It's nice to see that you have come back on the thread. I was starting to worry about that a little. MM

 

[Hachiro]

It's nice to see that you have come back on the thread. I was starting to worry about that a little. MM

I apologize for any confusion, I had a very difficult week and had very little time to make any thoughtful or decent replies to posts that people made in response. I probably should start a thread about what happened but I am not sure if it would be appropriate or not.

Part of the reason I started this thead was partly a knee jerk reaction to posts that I had read about people trying to explain things about "life" and "the way things are here in Japan". Without going into too much detail I thank everyone for their posts, both positive and negative.

If I am guilty of anything it is only NOT reading members profiles and places of residence when making a reply, if that is wrong then I am guilty as charged.


There have been some interesting relies to this thread, but one thing that sticks out the most to me at least is posters making their comments about Mr. Cash and his "infrequent" posts in Japanese. I was surprised at the comments made that just because a person lives here or has lived here for an extended period of time that "they should KNOW" Japanese. I am puzzled by that trend of thought, particularly because being from the USA orginally there are countless numbers of people that are functionally illiterate in reading and written English, yet NOONE find anything wrong with that. Well at least those that are dont.

I wonder where the distinction between the two comes from.....or should I say not just between English but any foreign person living in a country other than their country of birth, speaking a language other than their "native" tongue. Why do people assume special circumstances apply to Japan and long term expats than others?

 

[leonmarino]

Interesting thread!

I would first like to apologise for my posting in Japanese where it was not appropriate. I posted in Japanese sometimes because I believe that Japanese words are best written in Japanese, if only for the reason that it might add to the motivation of people who are learning this wonderful language. I meant it in a playful way and didn't intend to shut out other members of this forum. 窶堋ｲ窶堙溪?堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋ｳ窶堋｢ﾂ。 (Gomen-nasai = I'm sorry)

Anyways, I wonder what the purpose of this thread is.

I would wish to hear their thoughts about the "wanna be Japaner's" posting here

Why? Clearly "wanna be" is a negative thing to say to or about a person, and the original post implies that Hachiro is not a "wanna be", that he is very knowledgeble of Japan and that he is allowed to make certain comments because he knows better than other people. Although in later posts it seems that Hachiro does not rate people to the knowledge of Japan they have or have not, the original post seems to me like an expression of self-perceived superiority.

I do not like labeling people as wanna-be's as I fully understand that although experience in a situation may give insight in matter, sometimes a look from the outside can be more insightful. Someone who takes the same ride through town everyday may not no know more of the city than someone who has a map. The type of information is not better or worse, it is different.

Sometimes a beginner on a subject may pose questions or express statements that require critical thinking and a renewed look on the situation; thoughts and beliefs created by years of experience may have to refreshed and sometimes even rejected. "One who never shifts opinions has rarely learned a thing" (Some bad translation of a Dutch saying)

I find it therefore curious why someone would want to start a thread on "wanna be's". Although it has grown to an interesting thread, and I feel like I have learned something by reading it, I question the original intention of Hachiro; is it to express superiority, or is it sheer interest in what the "people who know more of Japan" think of "people who do not have a right to say", which also comes down to expressing superiority, if Hachiro chooses to appoint himself to the group of "people who know more of Japan".

And as for the reputation points? I don't know how to value this system.. The points that really count are not measureable; they are expressed implicitly in the posts of caring members.

 

[Gaijinian]

Hachiro-san, I was talking to Mike Cash, not you. (Even though I'm not sure he got my point... nor do I think I got his)
As far as the topic--in case you could not tell already, I'm in Wisconsin.