How far do most people get in japanese before giving up?

[MeAndroo]

Not at all, learning the kana was mainly homework; there's no need to waste class time on rote memorization.
Uh, okay.... Show me where I said it did.

I admit you never stated it explicitly, but I certainly felt it was implied by organizing your post as you did, namely:

Not at all, I think that is perfectly reasonable. It should only take a few days to learn the kana and their usage; so after that you might as well move on to kanji right away since learning the ~2,000 standard characters is going to take awhile.
If the program moves any slower than that, Japanese majors won't even be able to pass JLPT L2 by the time they graduate.

If that was not your intention, it was certainly a misunderstanding on my part, but saying learning 2000 characters will take a while, and using pace of program in your next sentence led me to believe they were related, paragraph breaks and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeAndroo
I'm curious to know how many kanji were on that first test. I'll assume it's a regular 4 hour/week class, which means you're either skimping on grammar or pronunciation practice, which is especially necessary in a beginning language course.
Not at all, learning the kana was mainly homework; there's no need to waste class time on rote memorization.

I certainly don't expect Japanese teachers to sit around holding up flashcards, but not giving the kana more than a cursory look in the first week still seems a bit excessive to me. The kana aren't difficult, but I appreciated increased focus on this most basic writing form.

I'm still curious to know which kanji were on that first test, if you remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m477
If the program moves any slower than that, Japanese majors won't even be able to pass JLPT L2 by the time they graduate.
I have to say that I kind of agree with m477 here. I think most Japanese classes could benefit from being more intensive and moving at a faster pace. I think a student graduating with a four-year degree in the language should possess a certain degree of proficiency in the language, and JLPT L2 isn't a bad standard to go by in this case.

I have no issue with JLPT2 being used as a measuring stick. Like I said, some upper level students were practicing for JLPT1. How they did...well, that I don't know.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

IKevin, no offense, but I think you still don't quite understand.
Many people, when they just start out learning Japanese, are obsessed with asking "How do you say [...] in Japanese?" about anything and everything they might possibly want to say.
These people don't start _truly_ learning until they realize that this is the wrong question to ask.
.

Sure, many people do. But I already know how to conjugate most verbs, and am learning grammarical structures really well. Again, most people probably don't do this, and when they do, probably think its too hard.

So you're trying to tell me, if I ask questions like this, then I'm not serious about learning it?

Ya know, I love how people doubt me that I"ll never learn it becuase I"m a teenager.

 

[myslani]

...

Why is this about YOU?

I've lurked around here for a very short time, and only just registered yesterday, so maybe I don't know you as well as some of the other people on this board seem to.

But I thought your question was a generic "what about teens" kind of thing, but since then all your replies have taken everything personally.

Did I miss something?

 

[McCrutch67]

Ya know, I love how people doubt me that I"ll never learn it becuase I"m a teenager.

I don't think most people doubt you because of your age. Explain this one for me,

Since I know katakana and hiragana (Not the small hiragana and large ones though) I Think the classesz may be easier for me.

What exactly are small and large kana? I realize there are small ones like the small tsu, ya, yu, yo, and the vowels in some katakana words for sounds with f and v, and w. What exactly are the large ones then? Do you mean when you see combinations like しゅ then you don't know how to pronounce it? You should know how to pronounce any combination of kana and you cannot claim to "know them" unless you can(excluding of course we and wi).

 

[Jack]

...
Why is this about YOU?
I've lurked around here for a very short time, and only just registered yesterday, so maybe I don't know you as well as some of the other people on this board seem to.
But I thought your question was a generic "what about teens" kind of thing, but since then all your replies have taken everything personally.
Did I miss something?

You've been here for a short time and you've noticed already.
The more you stick to learning Japanese is quite reliant on your need to know the language.

 

[J C]

Are you going to use it?

I found from personal experience that Japanese is like a muscle - you have to exercise it regularly to keep it in good shape. If you don't use it for a while, it will atrophy. Hence the poor state of my Japanese skills at the moment.
Motivation is an interesting topic - I believe you need to set yourself realistic targets, work hard to achieve those goals and there MUST be some form of reward when you succeed.
I think what determines long-term whether you keep up your Japanese study is whether you actually make practical use of it regularly. In my opinion, this means that you must either live in Japan or have regular conversations (written or spoken) with native Japanese speakers. This will keep your motivation high to learn new words, grammar, etc and the sense of fulfillment when you successfully communicate is a wonderful reward.
Learning Japanese in a class environment is also good as you have motivation in the form of competing with other students for better grades, but in the end I think you need personal motivation for doing it and there must be rewards for achieving targets you've set for yourself.
Learning Japanese by yourself is very difficult as feedback is very important in learning a language. Remember that a language is meant for communication - i.e. two people are always required.
Meh - just my 2c worth.

 

[Jack]

I found from personal experience that Japanese is like a muscle - you have to exercise it regularly to keep it in good shape.

A truly great metaphor, Its something you got to keep fresh in your mind.

 

[Elizabeth]

...
Why is this about YOU?
I've lurked around here for a very short time, and only just registered yesterday, so maybe I don't know you as well as some of the other people on this board seem to.
But I thought your question was a generic "what about teens" kind of thing, but since then all your replies have taken everything personally.
Did I miss something?

I don't mean to sound rude but naturally you don't know anyone if you've only been here a short time. If you were wondering whether your reply was completely appropriate to the question, without a doubt it was. If you want to find out more, stick around a little longer.

 

[Jack]

I don't mean to sound rude but naturally you don't know anyone if you've only been here a short time. If you were wondering whether your reply was completely appropriate to the question, without a doubt it was. If you want to find out more, stick around a little longer.

So you've noticed him too, i thought it was just me.

 

[Elizabeth]

So you've noticed him too, i thought it was just me.

I guess I'm always a bit taken aback when newcomers like myslani are that assertive in their second and third postings. If you aren't sure of the personalities or culture of place, it's best to lurk a little longer and answer your own questions rather than raise issues totally unrelated to the thread (imho).

 

[Jack]

I guess I'm always a bit taken aback when newcomers like myslani are that assertive in their second and third postings. If you aren't sure of the personalities or culture of place, it's best to lurk a little longer and answer your own questions rather than raise issues totally unrelated to the thread (imho).

I agree, i mean it took me a while before i spoke my true thoughts, because at first i guess you kinda hold something back. But i guess some people are different.

 

[bentenmusume]

Sure, many people do. But I already know how to conjugate most verbs, and am learning grammarical structures really well.

If you truly believe this, then I'm not even going to bother trying to prove you wrong.

Again, most people probably don't do this, and when they do, probably think its too hard.

Well, at least now I know why you asked the question. You're looking to prove to yourself that -- no matter what people may say -- you're making more progress with the Japanese than "most people" do.

So you're trying to tell me, if I ask questions like this, then I'm not serious about learning it?

I think you're very serious about _wanting_ to learn, but you haven't yet figured out how to seriously learn a language. This isn't an insult, it's just the way things are.

Ya know, I love how people doubt me that I"ll never learn it becuase I"m a teenager.

I don't think anyone here actually thinks that. This would be silly, as there are plenty of teenagers (including some on this forum) who have already managed to achieve an impressive level of proficiency in the language.

The day you decide to forget about other people's ability (or lack thereof) and focus on your own studies, stop worrying about how "difficult" the language is to learn, and learn to recognize and accept the gaps in your knowledge and work on fixing them -- that day will mark the greatest step forward you've taken thus far toward achieving proficiency in Japanese.

I hope you get there soon.

 

[myslani]

I don't mean to sound rude but naturally you don't know anyone if you've only been here a short time. If you were wondering whether your reply was completely appropriate to the question, without a doubt it was. If you want to find out more, stick around a little longer.

The reason for my question is I believed it to be an open topic. But since, it seems as though Gold Coin Lover was actually asking about -himself-. My post was written from the point of view of someone who's been on several other Japanese learning boards and watching who stays, and who disappears after a short time. There are patterns, whether or not they apply to the original poster here was irrelevant.

And yet now the OP seems to be defending himself against them as though I had laid personal attacks, which I have no reason to.

I will get "assertive" if I think that something I wrote has been grossly distorted for some agenda or another, no matter HOW new I am.

Take care.

 

[GoldCoinLover]

If you truly believe this, then I'm not even going to bother trying to prove you wrong. Okay, I know some.

I think you're very serious about _wanting_ to learn, but you haven't yet figured out how to seriously learn a language. This isn't an insult, it's just the way things are.
Well you don't really know me...I know how to study it. Sometimes I don't feel like studying all day. Practice writing the kana and kanji, use flash cards, and try and read japanese once you understand the grammar and conjugates better. Get a native japanese teacher. It seems like anything I say you do not agree with me. Is this not a good idea? I don't think anyone here actually thinks that. This would be silly, as there are plenty of teenagers (including some on this forum) who have already managed to achieve an impressive level of proficiency in the language.
The day you decide to forget about other people's ability (or lack thereof) and focus on your own studies, stop worrying about how "difficult" the language is to learn, and learn to recognize and accept the gaps in your knowledge and work on fixing them -- that day will mark the greatest step forward you've taken thus far toward achieving proficiency in Japanese.
I hope you get there soon.

I've really come to realize there is just no pleasing you j_t. I can't go through life wanting to please others, as that will only make me more miserable. Everything I try to tell you, to say to you, you dismiss, "Ah, he's really hasn't showed much progress." Or, "as there are plenty of teenagers (including some on this forum) who have already managed to achieve an impressive level of proficiency in the language.

Already? Learning japanese isn't a race Its a lifetime endeavor. You may have tried to give me constructive critism, I realize you did -- on some points, but it sounds like to me you are very annoyed with me for ignoring you (Or so you think I'm ignoring you). This really makes me not want to post here. Seriously. I try and post something, happy that I did it, and people don't care. (Some do, most here don't) and go and do these things:
1) Spam the forum and 'hijack' my thread. By typing in japanese, totally rude. This makes to many of my threads. An obvious sign no one here gives a crap about me. It doesn't happen in other peoples threads. Look at Kiansho's goodbye thread (Sorry, I couldn't say your name right, I forgot it) in the community part. Not a single person reacted the way they hate me.


You know, maybe I do suck at sleight of hand, that I've praticed for 6 years. People say I'm good at it, even complete strangers, and I can do a coin roll well, but the video says sponge ball sleights only take a "few minutes."W hat's the point of even learning it then? Pretty much an insult to all the years of practice it took.

Maybe I suck at japanese too. Oh, wait, I already do. But I'll get better. And when I DO get fluent, I'm not posting here. I can just never make anyone happy here, never please anyone. The only way I can please people is to be myself, for people who accept me like I am. Some people who do this, who care, who never give up, who show love and compassion all the time, who I dearly respect (And there are others...these just come off the top of my head)

Frank D White
pacinkpro
Mars Man
Nix

And others.

Thanks .

 

[Mike Cash]

Next maybe you'll come to realize the progression from:

1. Pity
2. Apathy
3. Contempt

You've played your drama queen manipulation game too much. The first time you posted that you were horribly wronged by everyone and leaving you generated a big long thread of pity from everyone encouraging you to stay.

Numerous times since then you've gone fishing for people to join you in feeling pity for you. In case you didn't notice...the level of pity you have been able to generate has steadily decreased, while the number of people you have managed to alienate has steadily increased. This latest attempt has gone ignored for over 24 hours, showing that people have moved from the pity phase into the apathy phase.

A move into the contempt phase isn't inevitable. It all depends on your attitude and the way you choose to interact with others.

People want to help you achieve your goals, and have tried to help you do so. But like some whiny little spoiled brat you insist on having everything your own way and reject the opinions and advice that have been offered for your own benefit. You have extreme mood swings from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows. You cuss people one minute and thank them the next, then repeat the cycle. It's very emotionally tiring for the people who have tried to help you.

I suspect that you may be in such a mad rush to learn Japanese as an effort to prove to yourself and others that you're not dumb. You've told us many times you were in special education through much of your school years. Is it possible that with studying Japanese you're trying to do too much too fast in order to cover up your own insecurity about having been in special education?

If you were in special ed for English, your native language, why would you think you should be able to race through a foreign language? There's no shame in having been in special ed English, and it doesn't mean you can't learn Japanese. But you should at least realize that maybe it means you might need to go at a slower pace...especially since everybody here has suggested the same thing. You were going at a pace that was too fast even for a gifted student.

Stop playing the emotional games with us. Focus on learning Japanese, and at a reasonable pace. Accept the idea that the many people who have tried to help you aren't out to attack you or make you feel stupid. Anybody who bothered to take the time and effort to respond to your posts has been trying to help you, even though many times you haven't thought so.

 

[cheapshot]

ok,
This thread appears to be veering firmly off topic, so forgive me for trying to get the ball moving again, by reflecting on my personal situation at the moment.
I (also) have been a long time lurker, few time poster. But this thread is very interesting. There have been some great posts about how and why people give up. I am currently working on the ﾂ"Japanese for Busy People 2ﾂ" textbook (to give you an idea of my level)
I feel like I am hitting ﾂ"the wallﾂ" of my ability a little. But to continue, you must remember that you are not native and things are going to be hard. For instance I tried to translate the story ﾂ"goldilocks and the three bearsﾂ" with a Japanese friend of mine and I found it difficult. This depressed me (not for long though ). things like this can make a learner want to jack it in, I think. But personally, I believe motivation is the key to anything. If you really want to do somethingﾂ… do it. I know it is difficult, but I genuinely enjoy learning Japaneseﾂ…but I think self-studying is difficult.
Also, as mentioned, comparing yourself to others is a bad move. There will always be people better than you. The contrary can also be said though, there will always be people not as good. So GLC, just think about that. Don't think ﾂ"Oh no, I wonder how well I am doingﾂ"ﾂ… instead, think ﾂ"what didn't I know how to say last week/last month in Japaneseﾂ…. Set your own personal goalsﾂ…
Just my two bits

 

[Elizabeth]

Also, as mentioned, comparing yourself to others is a bad move. There will always be people better than you. The contrary can also be said though, there will always be people not as good. So GLC, just think about that. Don't think "Oh no, I wonder how well I am doing"… instead, think "what didn't I know how to say last week/last month in Japanese…. Set your own personal goals…
Just my two bits

When Kevin has strong enough motivation to do something well, mostly fueled by anger or frustration, whether it is writing English or Japanese, his efforts are often respectable. When this emotional drive is absent, the results are often careless and haphazard. Whether this is a deliberate strategy of manipulation is difficult to tell, but I think this is a lot what has confused a lot of people over the last few months who have been extraordinarily generous with their offers of help.

 

[Damicci]

Man seriously:

Stop fishing for people to care about you. This is a web forum, no one has to care whether you live or die. Stop being butt hurt over how people respond to your 324525215341 threads filled with repeat questions. Stop thinking no one wants to help you. I sent you The only physical learning guide I could send. A long with many others on this forum. DOESN'T THAT MEAN PEOPLE CARE ENOUGH. EVERYONE continues to say your making progress but you continue to believe this is not true and MOST of us are shooting you down.
JT_ doesn't insult you but speaks his opnion. If he is not PLEASED, what does it matter. So mike has grown a bit weary of assisting you. What does it matter. I understand you may want to be praised and ego stroked for some of you accomplishments. You can't request respect and encouragement. It comes with time. Many people such as myself are still beginners and when we finally get something right, not many people on here wil say "Good job your doing wonderful" Because it is not expected. Your wanting and making claims about leaving this board because people are unhelpful. The people that you think are helpful should be enough to stay. And if you do leave, then you realize that EVERYONE who has helped you will be slapped in the face. Why? Because you took their kindness and ran!
Suck it up, and continue studying. I am at a point where I want to quit studying. I'm taking a break. Maybe you should too.

 

[Elizabeth]

Kevin さんもDamicci さんも、ここに戻ってきてくれたら嬉しいけど、自分にとって、一番良い方法が見つかるといいですね！ケヴィンさんの心理的な問題がこのフォーラムの範囲外だとおもいますね。
専門家の援助でしっかりしてから、彼には、日本語の勉強が出来たらいいとおもいます。

 

[Shigehisa]

*attempts to push topic back on track >_<*
the hiragana and katakana writing was fun and quite easy for me ... it just needs constant practice =D i guess many people took only a week or so to pick it up.
i hope to learn enough colloquial and formal Japanese to get me through reading manga and communication using Japanese by the time i'm 18. this thread somehow discouraged me though, i didnt know there were so many people who gave up halfway through learning the language >_<

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

i didnt know there were so many people who gave up halfway through learning the language >_<

You don't have to be one of them, though! Good luck!

 

[Hachiro]

I don't know if this pertains to this topic per say and I hope that nobody gets disheartened by what I am going to write but......

I know of a few people that have JLPT 1 kyu abilities but can speak very little Japanese. Similar to the Japanese that get the EIKEN (Eigo Kentei or STEP Test) level 1. I also know of many foreigners here that can speak Japanese close to a native level, yet can read and write next to zero Kanji, the reason being that they have had nearly no practical need to learn written Japanese.
It is always fascinating to me to see Japanese companies that are looking for foreigners to hire, requiring them to have the JLPT 1kyu when they don't expect the same from their Japanese employees. There is an assumption that if one has gotten to the 1kyu level then they should be able to speak the Japanese language as a native. That is not always the case as I mentioned earlier.

It is easy to give up on and also very easy to forget what you have learned even if you live here and have an opportunity to use the language, both written and spoken each and every day.

i didnt know there were so many people who gave up halfway through learning the language

I don't want to come across as condescending and I apologize if I do, I just would like to know your opinion or thoughts about one thing, when learning a language such as Japanese, could you explain to me what or where the halfway point is? (Or is it just a figure of speech) Do you differentiate between written and spoken language or are they one and the same to you?

 

[Mike Cash]

If I ever get to the halfway point, I fully intend to quit.

 

[m477]

I
I'm still curious to know which kanji were on that first test, if you remember.

There were characters we had to write and characters we simply had to know the readings and meanings of. I don't remember all of them, but I remember 私 and 学生 were on there, and 研究室 was one that we had to be able to recognize. I think 勉強 was on there somewhere too.

I have no issue with JLPT2 being used as a measuring stick. Like I said, some upper level students were practicing for JLPT1. How they did...well, that I don't know.

You mean that some students took it upon themselves to study for the JLPT in their own time. In other words, knowing all of the JLPT L1 material was not part of the school curriculum, correct?

 

[Shigehisa]

I don't want to come across as condescending and I apologize if I do, I just would like to know your opinion or thoughts about one thing, when learning a language such as Japanese, could you explain to me what or where the halfway point is? (Or is it just a figure of speech) Do you differentiate between written and spoken language or are they one and the same to you?

i have not got to the 'halfway point' yet, so i have no idea what it'll be like, being in the 'halfway point'.
I have not attended any Japanese-language learning class yet, i only pick up phrases, words, and nouns from books and reading manga. my grammar is still at rock-bottom level, so yeah -_-''

i can write Hiragana and Katakana, but i only know a few commonly used kanji. Reading manga in it's original language helps too, I got much Kanji from there. IMHO i think it's essential to both read and write, and speak Japanese if someone seriously wants to learn the language.

but i suck at all three >_<