How does one grow to love Japan?

[ArmandV]

Rudyard Kipling once said, "East is East and West is West and never the twin shall meet."

"Twain," not "twin."

Otherwise, excellent post!

 

[gaijinalways]

Pachipro,

I have to say this much, your posts are well thought out and often illuminating. In this case, though you are coming across like Gregory Clark, who has tried to back that because Japanese culture supports discrimination it is okay (because it's a tradition).

Certainly there are forms of discrimination aganist people who are different, native, foreigner, naturalized, etc.. in every country, but I think Japan for a modern nation seems woefully behind in dealing with it. Yes, you can look at the previous history here, where foreigners were excluded by government decree, but I think a lot of the current rigid (my opinion) practices here seem more stemming from something akin to a 'local village' mentality and quite at odds with the Japanese campaign to become "international citizens".

 

[pipokun]

This is absolutely true! I always say that there is Japan and the rest of the world...No one can be Japanese and no one will ever be fully accepted by the Japanese society. As of my experience, you will always be a gaijin...
...

Just wondering if I could be a Brit without speaking English.
Should there be restrictions on new migrant workers?
For some who cannot access BBC from your country, it seems to me that speaking a local language would be your first step to ease frustation from locals after clicking 'readers recommened'.

off-topic
I was so surprised to see the skyrocketing house prices in your country last 10 yrs. They seem more than Japanese ones in the bubble economy.

 

[Mike Cash]

I grew up during the decade in northern California ( despite sparsely visible Asian population ) wasn't ready for Oriental faces working at America's fast food chains,me think.I was a bit dramatized my summer job hunt encounter to set a parallel example in previous post.

How long had you been in America at the time and how well did you speak English?

 

[Taiko666]

Wandered back

from Mike cash: I can't help but wonder where the OP has wandered off to....

Hi, sorry , the OP has unfortunately been on a business trip, and is happily surprised by the number of kind replies in this thread! Now I'm trying to play catch-up.

From nice gaijin: There's nothing wrong with being offended by racist comments or behavior, but how you react to them could determine whether you're reinforcing those stereotypes, or breaking them.
I can't tell you which decision will work out better for you, but I wish you luck whatever direction you decide to take.

Thanks for your kind wishes. I like your point about reacting to negative experiences. Being polite, pleasant and tolerant is definitely better than being grumpy or exasperated. I've done the latter occasionally, but mosty (I think) the former. Milder annoyances (eg wow, you can use hashi!) have become easy to deal with. 'Intermediate' annoyances (eg The waiter answers my questions directly to my Japanese girlfriend and totally ignores me) still rankle and I need to get used to it. Major annoyances (eg being immediately shown the door after entering an estate agent) just have to be responded to with politeness and resignation if it's not to ruin your day.

Pachipro: thanks for your long post. I'm sorry but I just don't buy the idea that raising objections against Japanese injustices is in any way arrogant or unjustified due to my being a foreigner. Your profile states that you are of French/Irish origin residing in America. (Are you a guest? Of course you're not.) I'm sure you'll agree that the 'No Irish allowed' signs in New York hotels & bars until the 50s were unacceptable, as were the 'no blacks allowed' in 50s Britain. If you'd been a newly arrived immigrant I'd be surprised if you'd said 'Hey, it's American culture, I'm a foreigner so I shouldn't complain'

When does one cease to be a 'guest' in Japan? When do immigrants cease to be 'guests' in America? Will I remain one if I marry my Japanese fiancee? Become a citizen? Will my be children be guests? They'll suffer discrimination from an early age which will affect them for the rest of their lives.

I often see it suggested that we shouldn't impose 'western ideals' on Japan. In this case, this means tolerence and lack of discrimination. These are worthy ideals in any culture, and I've yet to see a rational explanation as to why they are not. Are people suggesting the Japanese are incapable of understanding worthy ideals?

Discrimination was major part of American and European culture in the past. Even though it still exists, most people now regard that it as a bad thing and they strive to irradicate it (with the help of governments.)

Discrimination is part of Japan's past and present culture. It too is a bad thing, but not only is the Japanese government doing nothing about it, some people seem to be defending it and somehow pinning the blame on the people who are discrimated against.

Nobody has anything to lose by reducing discrimination, least of all the Japanese themselves.

Anyway, sorry, that was all a little off-topic, since the reason I started this thread was to ask for practical advice about how to cope with the bad aspects of Japanese life, not whether my objections were justified or not. This is because the person I intend to marry lives in Japan, and I've no intention of persuading her to move somewhere else (that idea would have to come from her.)

Arrgh... run out of lunchtime... I'll continue to read the many thoughtful replies

 

[ricecake]

It's all the bad aspects which I discovered while in Japan.

Japan's gaijins' unpleasant experiences correlate to 2 English words how Chinese generally describe Japanese,ethnocentrism and xenophobia.

Ethnocentric = self-confident and superiority complex reflect in their social behaviours toward NON-Japanese origin perceived as " racist " in nature.

Xenophobic = less incline to accept NON-Japanese origin,it's one cultural trait deeply rooted in Japanese.

 

[Taiko666]

Just wondering if I could be a Brit without speaking English.
Should there be restrictions on new migrant workers?
For some who cannot access BBC from your country, it seems to me that speaking a local language would be your first step to ease frustation from locals after clicking 'readers recommened'.
.

Hi pipokun! Yes, it's possible to be a UK citizen without being able to speak English. There are thousand of such people in the UK, and large numbers living outside the UK who have some form of UK citizenship. That's one of the reasons BBC News is available in so many languages (see News in your language - BBC News)
Although, sadly, Japanese is not included!

But now the law has changed: in order to become a full citizen one must have a basic grasp of English, perhaps equivalent to Level 4 (the easiest) of the Japanese Language Proficiency Test.
Actually, English is not the only official language in the UK - there are 6! The next most widely spoken language is Welsh. 21% of Welsh people use this as their everyday language, and (by UK law) all road signs and official documents in Wales must be in Welsh and English. In fact, a small number of Welsh people claim not to be able to speak English at all...
(see United Kingdom - Wikipedia for info on the other languages)

 

[DmJapan]

Japan's gaijins' unpleasant experiences correlate to 2 English words how Chinese generally describe Japanese,ethnocentrism and xenophobia.
Ethnocentric = self-confident and superiority complex reflect in their social behaviours toward NON-Japanese origin perceived as " racist " in nature.
Xenophobic = less incline to accept NON-Japanese origin,it's one cultural trait deeply rooted in Japanese.

Ethnocentric literally means attached to your nation and xenophobic afraid of strangers.
Ethnocentric:ethnos + centro :nation + center
Xenophobic: xenos + phovia : stranger + fear

I dont think Japanese are ethnocentric sice the meaning of the word includes feellings like pride and love for your country.I read in a newspaper recently that Japanese people are the most unwilling(23%) to die for their country.
As for xenophobic...I dont think they are afraid of strangers but what you said...less incline to accept non-Japanese...which is more close to racism than xenophobia.
You have to come to Greece so you can see the difference....Albanians ( especially) are treated like low class workers,thiefs,murderers and members of the albanian mafia..It doesnht matter where you work or if you have a family and live peacefully....All of them....it is also used in some cases for swearing to someone..."Go away you filthy Albanian"...even if he is not one.
I think gaijin is used in a similar way in Japan.
Anyway it seems like Japanese people are more racists than xenophobics....

 

[ricecake]

I explained those two meanings from Oriental perspective as to how both Chinese and Koreans generally describe Japanese mentality.

Obviously,there is a cultural gap in this regard.

 

[pipokun]

What I wanted to say was why sensible British people showed frustration against migrant wokers. But I know BBC is also media looking for dog-biting guys.

Discrimination is part of Japan's past and present culture. It too is a bad thing, but not only is the Japanese government doing nothing about it, some people seem to be defending it and somehow pinning the blame on the people who are discrimated against.

You can find a position in local public sectors without getting naturalised, though you cannot be a manager without naturalisation.
You can be lawmaker, even Prime Minister after naturalisation.
The toughest choice is simply which is more profitable for you, EU passport or Japanese one. Even Maciamo said somewhere here, correct me if I am wrong, that he just needed permanent residence status, he would not intend to get naturalised in Japan.

I am just curious what 'have your say' would be like, if they would not be fully moderated, turning to be like Yahoo news forum in the US, the infamous 2ch in Japan, or something else.

 

[MajideSaiaku]

I find the Asian mentality for some is to blame someone else for everything and big yourself up, be you Japanese, Chinese or Korean.

 

[pipokun]

Just more people see the reality outside their countries.
The reality I mean is that there are many kinds of people and that there is no heaven or hell at least in our daily lives.

 

[Pachipro]

Being polite, pleasant and tolerant is definitely better than being grumpy or exasperated. I've done the latter occasionally, but mosty (I think) the former. Milder annoyances (eg wow, you can use hashi!) have become easy to deal with. 'Intermediate' annoyances (eg The waiter answers my questions directly to my Japanese girlfriend and totally ignores me) still rankle and I need to get used to it. Major annoyances (eg being immediately shown the door after entering an estate agent) just have to be responded to with politeness and resignation if it's not to ruin your day.

You are quite correct. The annoyances you mentioned are something all foreigners, sooner or later, get exasperated over to the point that it drives many from the country. Like nice gaijin said, it's how you react to them that will determine whether you stay or not and whether that stay will be enjoyable for you. Some can't take it and leave angry. Others accept it for what it is and go on with their lives. The key point will come after about 2-3 years. That is usually the turning point for many.

Everything you mentioned we all have experienced including myself, and it was downright annoying, sometimes to the point that I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs. There were days when I just wanted to pack my bags and get the hell out of there and was downright nasty to any Japanese who annoyed me like that. However, I overcame my anger and frustration and learned to cope with it because, in other aspects, Japan was really a wonderful place to live and work for me. After a while it didn't bother me anymore and I learned to accept it even if I often thought inside that the Japanese were basically idiots when it came to understanding foreigners who have lived in Japan for any length of time. I still did not turn a blind eye to their discrimination. I just learned to accept it because one person protesting will not do anything. I was also determined to study the underlying reasons behind it.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the idea that raising objections against Japanese injustices is in any way arrogant or unjustified due to my being a foreigner. Your profile states that you are of French/Irish origin residing in America. (Are you a guest? Of course you're not.) I'm sure you'll agree that the 'No Irish allowed' signs in New York hotels & bars until the 50s were unacceptable, as were the 'no blacks allowed' in 50s Britain. If you'd been a newly arrived immigrant I'd be surprised if you'd said 'Hey, it's American culture, I'm a foreigner so I shouldn't complain'

Raising objections is quite ok imo and even warranted. It's when a minority foreigners raise such a stink about it and demand that Japan change their ways because, "I am American and we don't allow that in our country." Or European for that matter. I have come to learn that Japan will not change because we few "demand" it, she will change when the Japanese people/citizens demand it of their government and right now they are not doing it.

If foreigners protested in Japan in significant numbers like in the tens of thousands maybe something will be accomplished, but you can't get two gaijin to agree on anything in Japan nevermind even saying hello to you or acknowledging you when you pass in the street or train.

The point you raise about "No Irish" being allowed in bars in the 50's is well taken. The same with blacks here in the US. It is only when they, and other citizens, protested in numbers did the government do anything about it and the populace accept it. I remember my grandfather saying something similar about NYC. He said to avoid trouble, he and others just avoided those places and stuck to themselves living in the same neighborhoods. I believe they didn't protest because there were insignificant numbers, and because the other citizens didn't protest loud enough. But when they did in the 60's things soon changed.

However, here in the US we now have a sizable portion of illegal immigrants from Mexico residing in the US in the millions. For years they remained quiet bitching only among themselves. Faced with the prospect of a major crackdown, They started to protest for non-discrimination in the tens of thousands as was evidenced back in May. And you know what? The government is starting to do something about it. Many signs are in Spanish/English. All telephone calls are answered with, "Press 1 for English, 2 for Spanish." And the government is not even cracking down on it because there are too many of them. They are afraid. Soon they will all be granted amnesty and automatically become citizens. That's what happens when you have numbers supporting you. And that is not the case with discrimination against foreigners in Japan yet.

When does one cease to be a 'guest' in Japan? When do immigrants cease to be 'guests' in America? Will I remain one if I marry my Japanese fiancee? Become a citizen? Will my be children be guests? They'll suffer discrimination from an early age which will affect them for the rest of their lives.

I believe that as long as we look foreign we will always be treated as foreigners even if we become citizens or marry a Japanese. Yes your children will probably suffer discrimination. It doesn't have to affect them for the rest of their lives if you teach them from the beginning what to expect. They'll become that much stronger because of it.

America is a melting pot as I said. All people of all races look like "Americans" even when they are not and they cease to be guests when they obtain citizenship.

I often see it suggested that we shouldn't impose 'western ideals' on Japan. In this case, this means tolerence and lack of discrimination. These are worthy ideals in any culture, and I've yet to see a rational explanation as to why they are not. Are people suggesting the Japanese are incapable of understanding worthy ideals?

In a way yes, the Japanese are probably incapable of understanding "worthy ideals" as they believe the Japanese way is right for Japan and the Japanese. "Worthy Ideals" are in the eye of the beholder I believe. What is not acceptable to us is perfectable acceptable to the Japanese. Remember, "East is East..." I believe that, just because we think not being allowed to rent an apartment e.g. because of our race is not right, doesn't mean that the the Japanese believe that or even have to, based on their culture and beliefs. Therefore, imposing our beliefs, without understanding the underlying reason, is tantamount to Christians imposing their ideals and beliefs on Jews and Muslims and vice-versa. It only leads to strife as is evidenced with the world situation today. Everyone thinks their "way" is the only true way.

Discrimination was major part of American and European culture in the past. Even though it still exists, most people now regard that it as a bad thing and they strive to irradicate it (with the help of governments.)

True, but get most people behind closed doors and out of earshot and you will discover that discrimination is still rampant as much today as in previous years. It is a major reason why I have such few friends as many are downright racist on the inside. It's only for the laws passed that allow people to rent apartments and own houses virtually anywhere. But given the choice, many would not rent to certain people. I've also discovered that quite a few people will not even invite certain races to their house because they are Mexican, or Black, or from the North, even though they pretend to be friendly when they interact with them.

Discrimination is part of Japan's past and present culture. It too is a bad thing, but not only is the Japanese government doing nothing about it, some people seem to be defending it and somehow pinning the blame on the people who are discrimated against.

Nobody has anything to lose by reducing discrimination, least of all the Japanese themselves.

Agreed. But as I said above, the government will not do anything about it without outside (international) pressure or the citizenry demanding it, or foreigners protesting in significant numbers. I have yet to see in over 30 years a single major protest in Japan by foreigners demanding equal rights for housing and such. The reason is that more than 95% probably do not intend to reside in Japan for any significant length of time. They just b*itch about it, myself included, among themselves or with anyone who will listen.

To take the "devil's advocate" position one can say that Japan has everything to lose by doing away with discrimination including her language, culture, and history. It doesn't mean I condone it. I just understand it. Land is sparse as we all know and there is barely enough housing and land for the Japanese themselves.

Look at the problem England, France, America, and most of Europe is having for that matter. They are in fear of losing their identity and culture at the moment to a foreign invasion of illegal immigrants who care nothing for the culture, language, or history of the country they chose to reside in. Ask any British-Muslim or Mexican-American and they will tell you they are Muslim and Mexican first. Perhaps, in a way, with their discrimination, Japan is trying to prevent the loss of their culture as they see it happening in other countries. I am not making excuses. I am just trying to understand the reason behind it.

Great post and a great discussion. I do hope you enjoy staying in Japan.

 

[aliceinwonderland]

I have to say i agree with iron chef, not all countries can be perfect and i think that you may have forgotton what the UK is really like Taiko 666. you need to way up the good and the bad and i think you will find that japan has a lot more good pointThere are still westerners that can be very racist against foreigners, all countries will have bad people. Although, i can only spek from 6 weeks experience of being in Japan, that i had no experiences like the ones Dmjapan and others have had. i found the japanese to be the most polite and friendly people i have ever met. They are one of the reasons i want to live it Japan so badly. Of course , quite a lot of people used to stare at me , as i am white with blonde hair and i was always with my chinese boyfriend which they might have thought was a little strange, but you get use to it after a while and if thats the worst experince then thats not bad a t all really.


It is my ambition to live and work as an illusrator in Japan, im only 22 at the mo, but id like to move there in 5 to 6 years, i really love everything about the country and found myself being happier than i have ever been while i was there.

This question is for Taiko 666, its so nice to find someone who is from the UK and as moved the Japan. I was just wondering if you coukd tell me why you moved to japan, how you got a job abd home out there, if you learnt to speak japanese and how hard was it to fit in?

i would just really love the experiences of someone who has fone what i want to do!

 

[ricecake]

I find the Asian mentality for some is to blame someone else for everything and big yourself up, be you Japanese, Chinese or Korean.

It has relevancy to ethnic discussion,can help non-natives grasp reality through corrective lenses.

I've always shy away from English language books on East Asia ancient or modern history written by Westerners,my collection is entirely in Traditional Chinese with authors of respective nationality or appropriately translated version from Oriental perspective.

 

[BenWa]

I've never been to Japan, but from what I've read it seems like a great place. I wasn't aware of the racism there. I have visited other countries like England and France, and found that people there had no problems with racism like the U.S. has. I'm hoping that Japan is at least better than the U.S when it comes to this topic. All I ever hear about Japanese people is that they're self-sacraficial, kind and forgiving. I'm probably speeking out of inexperince here, and if so someone should come correct me. Don't be shy about it, but then again don't be an *** about it either.
-BenWa

 

[yukio_michael]

I'm tired of writing the same things over and over, but I'll just tell you that you are way, way off base as concerns how good minorities must have it in Japan as compared to the United States.

Have a look at Japan's perception of American blacks, research any Bobby Ologon videos on YouTube... You'll find that Japan is a country that still prefers a sort of caricatured watermellon eating pickaninny. This is a country that had to be told that "Little Black Sambo" was racist.

It's an affront to the ethnic inclusion that exists in the United States to say that somehow Japan is better in this aspect. If by eliminating the presense of foreigners, you can say that somehow Japan has licked the problems of racism, well then you're a better idealist than I am.

edit: from The prosperous few, and the restless many Noam Chomsky on The roots of racism...

 

[DoctorP]

This is a country that had to be told that "Little Black Sambo" was racist.

Ahhh...but it is also a classic! I was lucky enough to find a copy many years ago and still have it.

 

[ArmandV]

This is a country that had to be told that "Little Black Sambo" was racist.

Which I find funny since Sambo was Indian, not African. I remember that Sambo's Restaurants had to change their name because of perceived racism.

 

[yukio_michael]

I remember that too, they changed it to "Village Inn"... We had one when I grew up in Florida, but I don't recall if I remember it being "Sambo's"...

I saw a video about Taiwan from the BBC, and there too they had sort of African headhunter dolls for sale--- You can imagine the type of caricature... I don't think the region is especially good with these types of race issues to begin with, so I don't mean to pin them all on Japan.

I just think its naieve to think that the United States is somehow the progenitor of racism.

 

[ArmandV]

In California at least, Sambo's used to be all around like Denny's. I actually liked Sambo's food a lot better than Denny's.

 

[ricecake]

I saw a video about Taiwan from the BBC, and there too they had sort of African headhunter dolls for sale.

There was a period ( 1960's-1970's ? ) in Chinese-dominated consumer markets in the Far East,one tooth paste brand literally means " black people's tooth paste " with shoulder-head photo of an extremely-black smiling exposed teeth African.

This was the brand my family purchased in those days.

 

[ricecake]

I've never been to Japan, but from what I've read it seems like a great place.

Seeing is believing

 

[Supervin]

There was a period ( 1960's-1970's ? ) in Chinese-dominated consumer markets in the Far East,one tooth paste brand literally means " black people's tooth paste " with shoulder-head photo of an extremely-black smiling exposed teeth African.
This was the brand my family purchased in those days.

Ah, Darlie toothpaste.



Colgate acquired the company and changed both the name to Darlie and the logo in the 80's.

 

[ricecake]

Not this exact brand,the blackman pictured on tooth paste tube not dressed in Tuxedo with top-hat.The Chinese label has 4 Kanji characters literally mean " black people's tooth paste ",it was widely commercially available in the Far East back in 1960' through 1970's.

Supervin,is this tooth paste brand commonly purchase among HK population ?