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How does one express empathy (or sympathy) in Japanese?

Haruto Uzumaki

渦巻ハルト
24 Apr 2022
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Since now I have a few Japanese friends I'm close with or care a lot about, the occurrence of times when I would like to be sympathetic or empathetic has increased. However, each time I attempted to express sympathy/empathy, I realized Japanese might have one unfortunate caveat (from my limited point of view and vocabulary): It seems it's much more difficult to express sympathy/empathy in Japanese compared to English...

For example, let's say your friend got bullied badly or beat up. In English, of course, you could say things like "I'm so sorry that happened", to express that you are regretful that you couldn't do anything, or just condolences for the situation in general. In Japanese, I tried to find ways to express this same kind of feeling, but all the translations that come up either won't make sense in the same way, or sound extremely distant in terms of trying to be empathetic or even sympathetic. As expected, it sounds weird if you say 「すみません」 or 「ごめんなさい」for something you didn't cause (not fully sure about 「申し訳ない」, but it's still far from the feeling I want to reproduce).

The closest translation I could get which makes sense is 「残念」, but that sounds extremely distant from the situation in my opinion. It sounds like one is maintaining their distance to prevent being involved as part of the situation, like "that's unfortunate" with too much emphasis on it being "that" (away from the speaker). I also wanted to use things such as 「お悔やみ申し上げる」 but I quickly learned that it is a for a eulogy at funerals only (which could unfortunately be a bad reminder for some people). Also learned that saying something like 「御愁傷様」isn't even allowed at funerals nowadays (due to how much of a reminder of the dead it is?), so essentially there's nothing I can think of left that can directly express sympathy or empathy ☹️
To me, it just emphasizes how indirect Japanese people can be with their feelings when they speak. Even if they actually did care, would they say anything more than 「残念」?

Even more difficult, expressing empathy... I know you can say 「分かる」 for certain situations but I don't think it always fits, especially if the same exact thing didn't happen to you, but you just understand how they feel on a deep level and want to show that you care and feel for them. Of course, you can also say things that indirectly say that you care, like saying you wish you could do something about it, but in this discussion I'd like to focus on how to directly empathize/sympathize.
The closest thing I could think of was 「共感している」 or empathizing, but I feel like there has to be some other way than "I empathize with you" to express empathy...

One of my (old) friends even said that 「同情」 and 「共感」 appeared to be synonyms (he didn't know the word 「共感」), but that's even more confusing because then that means there must not really be a difference between empathy and sympathy in Japanese?? Both of these words seem to have "empathy" and "sympathy" included in their definitions, but 共感 to me feels like it embodies empathy more than 同情...
I'm going to ask ChatGPT as well just for extra insight, but I hope to have a discussion on this, so I'm just going to add whatever information it gives me here, so it can also be discussed.

ChatGPT:
"Dōjō" (同情) and "Kyōkan" (共感) are two different terms that convey related but distinct meanings in Japanese.

  1. 同情 (Dōjō):"Dōjō" refers to sympathy or compassion. It involves understanding someone's pain, suffering, or difficulties and feeling pity or empathy towards them. It often implies a sense of concern or support for someone's situation or emotions. It can be translated as "sympathy" or "compassion."
  2. 共感 (Kyōkan):"Kyōkan" refers to empathy or shared feelings. It involves resonating with or understanding someone else's emotions or experiences based on personal experiences or emotional connection. It is the ability to feel what someone else is feeling and share in their emotional state. It can be translated as "empathy" or "shared feelings."
In summary, "dōjō" emphasizes the act of feeling sorry for someone's misfortune or suffering, while "kyōkan" focuses on the ability to share and understand someone's emotions or experiences.
What do you guys think about this? This is exactly what I was thinking originally, but dictionaries and translators seem to interchangably use "empathy" and "sympathy" for both words 😕

And sorry this was a bit disorganized, as it took me too long to write... (felt like an hour), but to repeat the topic's question: How do I properly express sympathy and empathy in Japanese, without sounding distant, separated from the situation, and so on?
Maybe it's something I could google or ask HiNative, but I prefer having discussions (and being part of the discussion) on here until I finally get it. I appreciate everyone's help!
 
I empathize with your concern. I've never really mastered the art of expressing sympathy/empathy in Japanese myself.
Probably if I paid more attention to all the tv dramas my wife watches I'd have a better handle on this by now.
I think many situations are somewhat rote and decided, thus, it feels distant to us like you say. Like the phrase you say at a funeral reception line such as ご愁傷様.
For minor things I might say 大変です・でしたね to mean "that sucks" or 残念 for "too bad" or "that's a bummer."
My go-to phrase for serious misfortune is 気の毒 like if somebody says their mother died or something.
A long time ago one of my in-laws was telling me about some of the terrible things they experienced in the world war -- about all the dead bodies lying around in Tokyo, Sumida River, etc. I said 大変な目にあいましたね which I don't think it was inappropriate but then he turned it into a sick joke and talked about how literally they saw the open eyes of the dead people in the piles of bodies. Uncomfortable laughter ensued.
More recently when our friend's daughter was gunned down in school in an incident you've certainly heard about, we went to the funeral/visitation. Before going I discussed with my wife what would be appropriate to say. Turns out there's nothing f***ing appropriate to say in any language when you're talking to your friends by their murdered daughter's coffin. I stuck to English. I don't know what my wife said. The best you can hope for is not to say something stupid or memorable to add to the pain.
 
慰めの言葉

大切な人を励ますシンプルな8つの言葉
  • 1、どうしたの? 大丈夫? ...
  • 2、つらかったね。 大変だったね ...
  • 3、今まで、がんばってきたんだね ...
  • 4、大丈夫だよ/心配ないさ ...
  • 5、いつもそばにいるよ ...
  • 6、いつでも話聞くよ/いつでも話してね ...
  • 7、大切なことの相談相手に選んでくれてありがとう ...
  • 8、明日はきっとよくなるよ
 
Haruto,

残念 (ざんねん) (zannen) ("What a shame.") is one of your go-to phrases. I don't know where you got the idea it is distant or cold, but I do not see it that way.

Another common phrase is お気の毒でした。(おき の どく でした。)(Oki no doku deshita.) (What a tragedy.)

One more commonly used phrase is かわいそう (Kawaiso.) (I feel sorry for you.) I would say that, out of these three phrases, this is the one I have heard most often.
 
One more commonly used phrase is かわいそう (Kawaiso.) (I feel sorry for you.) I would say that, out of these three phrases, this is the one I have heard most often.
Do you say this directly to the person who you are feeling sorry for?
I wouldn't say "I feel sorry for you" in English so maybe it's because of that but I only use this when talking about third parties.
 
My go-to phrase for serious misfortune is 気の毒 like if somebody says their mother died or something.

Interesting... I checked the link you added on it though and it just confirms my suspicions that it's another phrase that essentially just says "that's bad"...


A long time ago one of my in-laws was telling me about some of the terrible things they experienced in the world war -- about all the dead bodies lying around in Tokyo, Sumida River, etc. I said 大変な目にあいましたね which I don't think it was inappropriate but then he turned it into a sick joke and talked about how literally they saw the open eyes of the dead people in the piles of bodies. Uncomfortable laughter ensued.

Oh my 😅 that's definitely something... I don't even know what to say 😁



Turns out there's nothing f***ing appropriate to say in any language when you're talking to your friends by their murdered daughter's coffin. I stuck to English. I don't know what my wife said. The best you can hope for is not to say something stupid or memorable to add to the pain.

Yeah, that's so true... I don't even know if I can handle being put in that position because I'm always making mistakes or saying the wrong things, and I might end up making it worse, although at the very least I always try to be as considerate as possible and look at it from a perspective of if it were me in pain...



慰めの言葉

大切な人を励ますシンプルな8つの言葉
  • 1、どうしたの? 大丈夫? ...
  • 2、つらかったね。 大変だったね ...
  • 3、今まで、がんばってきたんだね ...
  • 4、大丈夫だよ/心配ないさ ...
  • 5、いつもそばにいるよ ...
  • 6、いつでも話聞くよ/いつでも話してね ...
  • 7、大切なことの相談相手に選んでくれてありがとう ...
  • 8、明日はきっとよくなるよ


ありがとうございます 🙇‍♂️
第七とか第八一番好きと思います
友達は「どうしたの?」良く使っています。。。ちょっと暖かいみたいな感じですね

(違うの文法があったら、ごめんなさい 😅 まだまだ勉強します)



Haruto,

残念 (ざんねん) (zannen) ("What a shame.") is one of your go-to phrases. I don't know where you got the idea it is distant or cold, but I do not see it that way.

Another common phrase is お気の毒でした。(おき の どく でした。)(Oki no doku deshita.) (What a tragedy.)

One more commonly used phrase is かわいそう (Kawaiso.) (I feel sorry for you.) I would say that, out of these three phrases, this is the one I have heard most often.


Good to you see you again Buntaro!
I guess personally for me, if someone says something like "what a shame" or "that sucks", it usually feels like they don't internally feel it themselves... it's like if someone has something bad happen to them and they tell their friend, and the friend replies with "bummer" or something... it just feels like they aren't really showing that they care, you know? That it affects them in some way too...
If I care, I would be like "aww I'm sorry, can't believe that happened... I wish I could help in some way", and so on, trying to speak to them gently to comfort them. 残念 to me, just sounds almost too "factual" or something, not sure what it is, but it feels like they're just stating the obvious and then going "well anyway, back to my own business".
I guess I'm essentially looking for words and phrases that can sort of "hug" the listener in a comforting way that would make them feel better about it or at least feel listened to, and related to...

And as for 可哀想(?), that feels like an even worse thing to say, for the same reason as @mdchachi said... I don't think I could ever say that to someone directly unless it wasn't a serious situation, but especially with all the context around 可哀想, I feel like it can almost mean "pathetic" in some ways... I wouldn't want to risk that kind of feeling potentially coming across, as if "I'm higher than you and such things wouldn't phase me, so I have no choice but to feel sorry for you", you know? I mean, I can't say whether my idea of these words are even close to correct or not, but this is just how I personally feel about these words based on how I've seen them used...

お気の毒でした seems like the more polite/honorific version of the first one @mdchachi gave, but thank you both, even though I'm still unsure whether this has more meaning than "that's bad" when it boils down to it 🤧


残念 often has a nuance that the addressee failed something, for example losing a game.

Ahh, I don't think I knew about that nuance! That's good to keep in mind as well, thanks 😅

I would say ひどい話だよね/ですね for those cases.

I see... I saw this kind of response on twitter when some singer got direct messaged some rude stuff about her voice, and people were saying 酷い and such things... I guess I can make use of that in some way too, but if there's anything I've learned from asking this question, it's that even in English there's not much to say that doesn't simply state the obvious, and even more so in Japanese.
At least in English, saying things like "I'm so sorry that happened" feels way more personal than all the Japanese phrases we discussed here so far. I guess the involvement of one's own "sorriness" makes the empathy/sympathy more clear, in my opinion.

A little off topic, but I just noticed by typing "sorriness" that the word "sorry" is probably related to "sorrow" in some way, and I wonder if it originally meant something more like "sorrowful¹". If that's the case, it completely explains why I feel how I feel about these words. Being sorry is like the act of feeling sorrow ¹for either your actions or the result of someone's actions to someone you care about... All the Japanese words I've seen so far don't seem to convey that sorrowful/emotional part where you feel or try to feel the other person's pain, or put your feet in their shoes... That's exactly what I'm missing, and that's exactly why things like 残念 feel so distant to me!! (そうだ!! moment)
Why can't I be sorrowful for things I didn't cause...
And I think we can all agree that "being sorry for someone" and "feeling sorrow for someone" are quite different, and as I'm trying to convey the second meaning, I don't think 可哀想 and such things fit...
 
And as for 可哀想(?)


This phrase is usually written in hiragana which is probably why Buntaro wrote it that way, not for the purpose of dumbing it down.
You don't need to go out of your way to write it in kanji.

1685411692036.png



this can also be used as an adverb by adding a に at the end which changes the usage and meaning. I hope Bing can be believed but this is what it says:
====
かわいそう and かわいそうに are both expressions of pity or sympathy, but they have some differences in usage and nuance.

かわいそう is an adjective that can be used for any living creature, but usually for those who are lower in status or position than oneself. For example, you can say かわいそうな犬 (a poor dog) or かわいそうな子供 (a poor child). かわいそう can also be used at the end of a sentence, such as 彼はかわいそうだ (he is pitiful).

かわいそうに is an adverb that can only be used at the end of a sentence. It is more formal and polite than かわいそう, and can be used for anyone, regardless of their status or position. For example, you can say 彼女は病気でかわいそうに (she is pitiful because of her illness) or お気の毒に (I'm sorry for your misfortune).
===
I think your strategy of watching what people say on social media is a good way to pick up common expressions of sympathy. The expressions may not reach the virtual hug stage but keep in mind Japanese people typically don't hug each other either. So your frame of reference may not be applicable.
 
As a rule of thumb, I would never openly express pity to a guy/man, such like with "kawaisou".. it has something to do with"saving face".
Instead, do whatever it takes to boost the morale.
For instance your friend got bullied, go with something like "odoshi ni ha kusshinaide" or "shikkari shite ne".
Offer solutions, offer help and if not, invest yourself and be a good listener.
This is true to all kind of circumferences.
Then you can proceed in refering to the bullies as cowards, and japanese has all kind of expressions for it, like "okubyōmono". So one could say something like "hiretsu na okubyōmono dearu ne".

It also helps to talk about your own hardships and failures, without mentioning the ones from your comrade or just subtle hinting at them.
In cases of tragedy like death, it is just enough to be considerate (思いやり)as there are barely expressions to convey the magnitude and mirages of emotions and inner feelings (心根).
Unless you make a funeral oration, do not fret over what to say, just be sincere.
In Japan ^ traditional japanese culture it is vital to cultivate silence (ちんもく)and presence of mind (はらげい).

Maybe a gift, a book of character developement or kakejiku would be also appropriate, depending to whom.
 
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I checked the link you added on it though and it just confirms my suspicions that it's another phrase that essentially just says "that's bad"...

It would be good to decouple the idea of one-for-one translations for some of these set phrases. The one-for-one translation of お気の毒 (poison of the/your honorable feeling) makes no sense to us in English. But it is one of the "go-to" phrases in Japanese. It has all the meaning and impact of something like "I'm so sorry to hear that". The intention is just to show you care for the other person, not to launch into a lengthy expose of your internal dialogue. In fact, when you start to think in terms of, "how do I tell this person my most heartfelt, sympathetic feelings?" you go down a rabbit hole that would result in something completely inappropriate to the situation and to the culture. For example, in English, we tend to express these things in terms that center the action on ourselves - "I'm sorry", "I feel so bad for you", "Is there anything I can do for you?". This sounds completely cringey in Japanese, where you show sympathy by showing understanding for the other person's feelings in a way that centers them as the locus of the action - "you must be feeling terrible", "you must be going through a lot", "you must be exhausted" etc...

So
お気の毒
大変ですね
ひどい目に遭いましたね
and this extends to everyday phrases
お疲れ様
ご苦労様
ご馳走様
and the afore-mentioned ご愁傷様 which is absolutely, completely OK to say at funerals, despite the information you got telling you it is disallowed.
These are all phrases where the action is centered on the listener, rather than the speaker, because that is how the culture developed. Therefore the language tends to be hard-coded in a way that centers the other, rather than self. This is, of course, a grand generalization, and isn't accurate for all phrases all of the time, but the point is that using these set-phrases are legitimate parts of Japanese discourse, even if you find them not to your liking. I hate saying お疲れ様です when people are obviously not tired, but fishing around for a phrase that accurately describes how I feel, would be weird, jarring, awkward, etc.

Of course as you become more adept at the language, your facility for expressing things deepens. And you can say things like "If you need anything let me know" etc... But really the first step in become adept in the language is knowing how to use the phrases that are used by the Japanese people in everyday life. So if you reject phrases like 残念です or 大変です because you don't think they sound right, its kind of like saying I want the Japanese language to conform to my expectations, rather than changing your expectations to conform to the conventions of Japanese.

So things like
I know how you feel
I went through the same thing, so I understand what you are going through
I had the same experience so I empathize completely
etc...
are all feelings that are basically expressed with phrases like 残念です, 大変です, お気の毒, など.

In cases of tragedy like death, it is just enough to be considerate

This is a great and concise way to say everything I was trying to express above. Expressing thoughts of consideration as a native might express them, are all ways of displaying sympathy, care, thoughtfulness.
 
This phrase is usually written in hiragana which is probably why Buntaro wrote it that way, not for the purpose of dumbing it down.
You don't need to go out of your way to write it in kanji.
I thought so, but I also just wanted to confirm that it was the correct spelling as well (apart from that, I find it easier to remember, read and understand a word when it's in kanji, so I typically use the kanji as an exercise)
Also so I won't be lost when people do use the kanji form, since that's happened many times... didn't know ない was 無い until a few months ago but I see the kanji form plenty of times, not as much as hiragana but still quite often enough...
this can also be used as an adverb by adding a に at the end which changes the usage and meaning. I hope Bing can be believed but this is what it says:
I seee... I didn't know about this adverbial form for かわいそう, but I imagine it works similar to things like 忘れずに, right?
Well, I guess that could work, although I'd still be a little hesitant to use it because ↓
かわいそう is an adjective that can be used for any living creature, but usually for those who are lower in status or position than oneself. For example, you can say かわいそうな犬 (a poor dog) or かわいそうな子供 (a poor child). かわいそう can also be used at the end of a sentence, such as 彼はかわいそうだ (he is pitiful).
That's exactly the feeling I got from that word, and I'm worried about ever unintentionally "raising" myself above others, so even if it says the adverbial form doesn't have that type of nuance, I'll still refrain from saying such things until I start hearing it in context (and I imagine now that I've become aware of it, I'll start hearing it everywhere) 😅
I think your strategy of watching what people say on social media is a good way to pick up common expressions of sympathy. The expressions may not reach the virtual hug stage but keep in mind Japanese people typically don't hug each other either. So your frame of reference may not be applicable.
That's right... more on that in the reply to @Majestic
The words that a gal uses when I sympathize.
1.seyana...
2.soyana.....
3.sorena...
4.arena....
5.Wakaru!!
Siran kedo...
I'm not sure what you mean, and also not sure if any of those except 分かる fit for sympathy/empathy, but if you mean that women use these types of phrases to sympathize, I guess I can see that, especially 分かる... However, I enjoyed the music video 😄 also, most of those phrases sound like dialect to me (1 and 2 are Kansai?), or were they originally dialect and no longer are? Or am I just getting that from nowhere 😅
As a rule of thumb, I would never openly express pity to a guy/man, such like with "kawaisou".. it has something to do with"saving face".
Instead, do whatever it takes to boost the morale.
That makes sense, and I agree, I want to be able to boost morale as well
For instance your friend got bullied, go with something like "odoshi ni ha kusshinaide" or "shikkari shite ne".
Offer solutions, offer help and if not, invest yourself and be a good listener.
This is true to all kind of circumferences.
Then you can proceed in refering to the bullies as cowards, and japanese has all kind of expressions for it, like "okubyōmono". So one could say something like "hiretsu na okubyōmono dearu ne".
I
It also helps to talk about your own hardships and failures, without mentioning the ones from your comrade or just subtle hinting at them.
In cases of tragedy like death, it is just enough to be considerate (思いやり)as there are barely expressions to convey the magnitude and mirages of emotions and inner feelings (心根).
I thought about using my own experiences to help, but I thought it might also take away the focus from them and could send an unintended message... Essentially don't want to overshadow anyone's issue by presenting my own even if they were from the past to relate to them, and a couple times I felt like I did that on accident in Japanese... (more on the "self-centering" thing in the reply to @Majestic )
And you're right, I should just be considerate since after a certain point there's not really much I can say or do, I guess...
Unless you make a funeral oration, do not fret over what to say, just be sincere.
In Japan ^ traditional japanese culture it is vital to cultivate silence (ちんもく)and presence of mind (はらげい).
Maybe a gift, a book of character developement or kakejiku would be also appropriate, depending to whom.
I agree, I guess I should focus more on just how to get their spirits up rather than how to empathize. It is quite necessary to cultivate silence after all... It can be difficult to follow this kind of Japanese culture on the internet, but I'll do my best to use actions rather than words when I'm in Japan, if that's what you mean by はらげい (腹芸?)💪
It would be good to decouple the idea of one-for-one translations for some of these set phrases. The one-for-one translation of お気の毒 (poison of the/your honorable feeling) makes no sense to us in English. But it is one of the "go-to" phrases in Japanese. It has all the meaning and impact of something like "I'm so sorry to hear that". The intention is just to show you care for the other person, not to launch into a lengthy expose of your internal dialogue. In fact, when you start to think in terms of, "how do I tell this person my most heartfelt, sympathetic feelings?" you go down a rabbit hole that would result in something completely inappropriate to the situation and to the culture. For example, in English, we tend to express these things in terms that center the action on ourselves - "I'm sorry", "I feel so bad for you", "Is there anything I can do for you?". This sounds completely cringey in Japanese, where you show sympathy by showing understanding for the other person's feelings in a way that centers them as the locus of the action - "you must be feeling terrible", "you must be going through a lot", "you must be exhausted" etc...
Hm, to me it kinda did make sense in English (I thought of it as more like "poison for your energy" in the sense that it poisons one's upbeat/joyous spirit) but I see what you mean... The reason for the way I think of these words is because I didn't feel such meaning and impact as you describe actually existed (enough, at least to me), but the way you just explained it seriously makes sense now. I wasn't thinking about it at all, but you're completely right that in Japanese they almost always prefer to tell the story from the outside perspective (second person? All I know is, this is why passive voice or される and such things are used). I didn't realize it until now, but if I try to express my own sorrow in japanese, it puts the emphasis on me which is the exact opposite of what I want, so now I understand... It's one thing to know about it but it's another thing to actually "live it" or make it your whole being... I mean, in order to live, breathe and embody Japanese in totality, I really have to change my entire way of thinking 😵 even though I knew about them typically speaking in a way that doesn't center themselves as the subject, I guess I need to work on embodying that so I can better understand how it feels on the receiving end of these words.
Thinking about it, this even answers my question as to how/why 「ごめんなさい」 is a real apology, which I was confused about because it's basically a command, so I had to think of it as something like "please pardon me" and not just "I'm sorry", but now with this understanding, I get that the emphasis is also most likely placed on the person whom you're asking forgiveness from. It's more like "you please pardon (me)" feeling vs "I should be forgiven (because of my remorse)", isn't it...
and the afore-mentioned ご愁傷様 which is absolutely, completely OK to say at funerals, despite the information you got telling you it is disallowed.
Strange... well it was a Japanese person who told me, and I don't even know where he got that from if not from personal experience... Lemme see if I can find what he said:
これも葬式の弔辞だが、事故に会った人などに「ご愁傷様です(ごしゅうしょうさま)」とは言うかな

ご愁傷様の愁傷とは秋の空気のように心が痛みますね、という意味

頻繁(ひんぱん)に使うものではないね
最近では葬式でも「ご愁傷様です」は使ってはいけない風潮にある
「お悔み申し上げます」が無難かな
This is the second time he misled me 😅 well, now that I think about it, I guess I shouldn't trust everything he says due to his mental condition anyway... Either way, our friendship has unfortunately come to an end so I won't be gaining anymore info from him...
Of course as you become more adept at the language, your facility for expressing things deepens. And you can say things like "If you need anything let me know" etc... But really the first step in become adept in the language is knowing how to use the phrases that are used by the Japanese people in everyday life. So if you reject phrases like 残念です or 大変です because you don't think they sound right, its kind of like saying I want the Japanese language to conform to my expectations, rather than changing your expectations to conform to the conventions of Japanese.
I'll continue to do my best to increase my ability to express things properly (and not just myself) 🙇‍♂️
It's not even that I want it to conform to my expectations, but more that I just felt it was literally the Japanese being Japanese (as in typically distant, cold, etc.) and I didn't want to be that type of person in Japanese, even if it's not the "norm" I guess. Reading everything you said, I agree completely and now understand that I should probably accept the fact that they simply show that they care in different ways. I just didn't know that it really expressed that in the heart of the expression; I felt that words such as 残念 are less "self-involving", but after your explanation I also now realize why exactly that is...
This is a great and concise way to say everything I was trying to express above. Expressing thoughts of consideration as a native might express them, are all ways of displaying sympathy, care, thoughtfulness.
Thank you for your help, everyone. I feel that I was able to view a new perspective thanks to this discussion!!
I have many more questions left to ask, so I'll be onto the next one soon 👀
良ければ、一緒に 🙇‍♂️
 
I wasn't thinking about it at all, but you're completely right that in Japanese they almost always prefer to tell the story from the outside perspective
Needless to say, ひどい話だよね/ですね in my previous post is exactly a variation of Majestic-san's examples; "you must be feeling terrible", "you must be going through a lot", "you must be exhausted".;)

ご愁傷様の愁傷とは秋の空気のように心が痛みますね、という意味
This explanation is totally wrong. 愁 is classified in 形声, i.e., phono-semantic compound characters. 秋 is the phonetic component of this character, thus, 秋 only gives the pronunciation "shū" to the character, and it has nothing to do with the meaning "autumn".
 
You just unlocked the next level. 🏆

Or, let me suggest: you add a new way of thinking to what you already know. You open yourself up to a new way of thinking, and this is when things start accelerating. Or, they did for me.
Thank you, thanks to everyone here I have unlocked a new level 🙇‍♂️
Needless to say, ひどい話だよね/ですね in my previous post is exactly a variation of Majestic-san's examples; "you must be feeling terrible", "you must be going through a lot", "you must be exhausted".;)
Right, I'll be using it as well when the time comes 🙏 thank you!
This explanation is totally wrong. 愁 is classified in 形声, i.e., phono-semantic compound characters. 秋 is the phonetic component of this character, thus, 秋 only gives the pronunciation "shū" to the character, and it has nothing to do with the meaning "autumn".
Good thing I won't be listening to him anymore 😅 and thank you for the correct explanation!! I didn't even know about phono-semantic compound characters or how they worked, but it was easy to understand thanks to your explanation! Now I have a clearer understanding of why some kanji are made the way they are and seemingly "two pieces" sometimes (the bottom part does look sort of separated from the top)
And also maybe why a lot of characters have similar pronunciations, but with different radicals
like 引ける・弾ける where the left side is pretty much the same but the right side is different, yet they're pronounced the same (I think at least) but definitely have different meanings
Thanks everyone!
 
Good thing I won't be listening to him anymore 😅 and thank you for the correct explanation!! I didn't even know about phono-semantic compound characters or how they worked, but it was easy to understand thanks to your explanation! Now I have a clearer understanding of why some kanji are made the way they are and seemingly "two pieces" sometimes (the bottom part does look sort of separated from the top)
And also maybe why a lot of characters have similar pronunciations, but with different radicals
like 引ける・弾ける where the left side is pretty much the same but the right side is different, yet they're pronounced the same (I think at least) but definitely have different meanings
This article is very good for explaining kanji and its components.
 
And also maybe why a lot of characters have similar pronunciations, but with different radicals
like 引ける・弾ける where the left side is pretty much the same but the right side is different, yet they're pronounced the same (I think at least) but definitely have different meanings
Kanji were made in China. (There are exceptions that are called 国字, though. For example, 峠, 畑 or 躾 were made in Japan.) Thus, the explanation is only for Chinese pronunciations, i.e., 音読み. 音読み of 弾 is ダン. This is from the phonetic component 単 タン, as same as 箪(箪笥 たんす) or 惮(忌憚 きたん).

単 also has another 音読み セン, and it's used for 戦(戦争 せんそう) or 禅(ぜん) in the site mdchachi-san linked above.

Incidentally, 引 belongs to 会意, i.e., compound ideographs. It was made of "弓 bow" and "丨 line", expressing "to draw a bow(bowstring) linearly", and then it means "to draw".
 
This article is very good for explaining kanji and its components.
Thanks, I read to the end. I already knew about radicals and such things, I just didn't know that one part could define the pronunciation, the other part defining the meaning, or at least I never paid attention to it.
Also, I don't like mnemonics personally, because it attaches a sort of unrelated emotion for me because of the visualization/story I or others make for a kanji. Instead, I prefer to learn them through familiarizing myself with words that contain kanji, then catching them in real life situations, and at that time recalling the meaning (potentially getting it right or wrong, checking with translation or dictionary) and for me, that usually makes me remember the word instantly, and if not, once or twice more is usually enough. By nature I typically come across the common readings anyway, and when I see the new ones I just take mental notes of them and next time I'll usually get it right, like how I incorrectly was thinking of 寂しげ as さびしき; once I learned the correct reading for that word from @Toritoribe , I became unable to forget it at that point.
Learning radicals individually seems even harder than my method honestly, but at the very least, I do unintentionally learn them (also by nature of my method). Also when I look at the word, I just memorize the shape of the word itself and for a kanji in particular, I just remember them by the most common word I've seen using that kanji. I probably worded it weird, but here's an example from the site.

1686027036823.png

Instead of thinking of that as rain, rice paddy, and umbrella, I just see it as a whole as something related to electricity. It also looks like a phone to me because of 電話, so I guess that's my "story" which to me makes more sense than talking about umbrellas, rain, and rice paddies which seemingly have nothing to do with electricity unless you unnaturally connect it, which is the problem for me. I also have to say that although they point out even most Japanese people don't know the names of most radicals, I feel like that would personally be better for me, especially since if each radical has a unique name/pronunciation in japanese, that can be the solution to the names being "too similar" in english.
Anyway, overall I just mean to say, personally those mnemonic types aren't for me, and I feel that it sits a lot more naturally in my head if I either A: learn the real story behind it, or B: use the words themselves as mnemonics rather than made up stories or pictograms that try to look like the kanji (when 90% of the time they just don't look that way to me)
Thus, the explanation is only for Chinese pronunciations, i.e., 音読み. 音読み of 弾 is ダン. This is from the phonetic component 単 タン, as same as 箪(箪笥 たんす) or 惮(忌憚 きたん).
I see... So I now understand that it's only for 音読み, but how do you know which part is what holds the meaning/pronunciation? I mean, if I learned either radical, then I'm sure I'd figure out which does which, but as of now, not knowing either radical in that kanji for example, how does one avoid the situation that my old Japanese friend ended up in, coming up with the wrong story due to probably not knowing the radicals? Also, this means because 「ひける」 is the 訓読み for both words, 弓 isn't the phonetic component in these words (or there is none at all), and it's just a coincidence that they sound the same and have 弓 in common?
Incidentally, 引 belongs to 会意, i.e., compound ideographs. It was made of "弓 bow" and "丨 line", expressing "to draw a bow(bowstring) linearly", and then it means "to draw".
So that's why some of them make sense while some others don't...
I did learn about the bow and line combination thanks to one of JapaneseLily's videos :giggle:
I looked up 会意 quickly, and saw that it was originally done in Chinese too, so I'm wondering what caused only some words to have actual meanings based on the radical meanings? It's probably too in depth at this point, and nothing to do with what we were originally talking about though 😅 and I feel that it's going to be a rabbit hole that I won't have enough time to fully traverse...
 
Anyway, overall I just mean to say, personally those mnemonic types aren't for me, and I feel that it sits a lot more naturally in my head if I either A: learn the real story behind it, or B: use the words themselves as mnemonics rather than made up stories or pictograms that try to look like the kanji (when 90% of the time they just don't look that way to me)
I get what you're saying. Many people find there are limitations to your suggested approach after some point.
Also the mnemonics tend to go away after a kanji is learned. It's more of an initial hook or fall back.
Regardless I think it's impossible for most people to retain the kanji without regular reading/practice which is why my reading comprehension is so terrible.
 
how do you know which part is what holds the meaning/pronunciation? I mean, if I learned either radical, then I'm sure I'd figure out which does which, but as of now, not knowing either radical in that kanji
There are over 200 radicals, but common ones are not so many, for instance, 氵さんずい, 亻 にんべん, 扌 てへん, 疒 やまいだれ, 艹 くさかんむり, etc.. Uncommon ones are difficult to identify as the radical even for natives, but you will be able to recognize these common ones soon.

You came across 腹 はら in this thread. The radical of this kanji is 月 にくづき, and the right side 复 ふく is the phonetic component. Thus, the 音読み of the following kanji are all フク.

腹 (腹痛 ふくつう), 復(往復 おうふく), 複(複雑 ふくざつ), 覆(覆水 ふくすい)

For example, 訓読み of 沼 is ぬま, but 音読み is not commonly used, so the reading of 湖沼 is uncertain. However, it can be guessed that 音読み of 沼 would be ショウ from 召(召喚 しょうかん), 招(招集 しょうしゅう) or 紹(紹介 しょうかい). In fact, 湖沼 is read こしょう. This is a way natives surmise the reading of unknown kanji compound words, often unconsciously.

Also, this means because 「ひける」 is the 訓読み for both words, 弓 isn't the phonetic component in these words (or there is none at all), and it's just a coincidence that they sound the same and have 弓 in common?
It's simply just a coincidence.

By the way, while 引ける/弾ける is the potential form, the dictionary form is usually used as an example of verbs. It's better to use 引く/弾く instead.

I'm wondering what caused only some words to have actual meanings based on the radical meanings?
It's said that 90% of kanji are 形声, and the meanings of these kanji are quite often related to the radical. For example, 腹 is a body part (note that 月 is actually a variation of 肉 "flesh", not "moon", here), and both 湖 and 沼 are related to "water" (氵 is from 水).
 
Sorry for being away, everyone 🙇‍♂️
I get what you're saying. Many people find there are limitations to your suggested approach after some point.
Also the mnemonics tend to go away after a kanji is learned. It's more of an initial hook or fall back.
Regardless I think it's impossible for most people to retain the kanji without regular reading/practice which is why my reading comprehension is so terrible.
Understandable; I'll definitely consider changing my strategy if things stop working for me, but it personally seems to work perfectly for me. Since I regularly get exposed to kanji every day by reading texts from people and such, I feel like I'm inclined to never forget them. There's also people that have certain "tendencies" to say certain words or sentence patterns, and those people are essentially my "drills" to remember how to read their words once I see them say it again. Also, because of the nature of how I am, if I learn through radicals, I'm going to end up questioning how every kanji came to mean what it does, if how the radicals give the kanji meaning doesn't immediately make sense to me. Ends up sort of inhibiting my learning because I get stuck on fully understanding, so instead I'm just ignoring it for now (but if the information appears, I of course absorb it) 😅

For example, 訓読み of 沼 is ぬま, but 音読み is not commonly used, so the reading of 湖沼 is uncertain. However, it can be guessed that 音読み of 沼 would be ショウ from 召(召喚 しょうかん), 招(招集 しょうしゅう) or 紹(紹介 しょうかい). In fact, 湖沼 is read こしょう. This is a way natives surmise the reading of unknown kanji compound words, often unconsciously.
I see... I've noticed something like this when texting my friends, accidentally using obscure kanji (from translations), although even if they get it right, it seems they often aren't confident in the reading.
By the way, while 引ける/弾ける is the potential form, the dictionary form is usually used as an example of verbs. It's better to use 引く/弾く instead.
Whoopsy 😅 I just see the potential form a lot more, in context of things such as being able to play instruments and such, so I just defaulted to that form instead.
It's said that 90% of kanji are 形声, and the meanings of these kanji are quite often related to the radical. For example, 腹 is a body part (note that 月 is actually a variation of 肉 "flesh", not "moon", here), and both 湖 and 沼 are related to "water" (氵 is from 水).
Interesting :unsure: so I guess I won't come across kanji with no meaning from their radicals that often, then...
 
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