How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Elizabeth]

Oh tomorrow if I get a chance I'll post my teacher's response...you guys'll have to decipher, because...well it'll be evident.

The first line is really a 窶堋ｷ窶堋ｲ窶堋｢窶卍ｼ窶禿ｳ (amazingly direct translation), but after I got over that...nothing too surprising.

So save yourself the middleman and sign up for one of our classes instead.

 

[Putrefaction]

Er, maybe its because I just came back from a 10 hour shift and stuff but what do you mean?

 

[undrentide]

窶冦窶堙≫?堙??ｰﾂｽ窶堙坂?斗窶堙個好窶堋ｫ窶堙闇?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？ﾂ（窶杯ﾂ）
Do you know what my favourite kanji is?

You need to learn the basic sentence structure.
(1) is very basic but (2) is much more complicated.

(1) What is A?
窶啻窶堙坂?ｰﾂｽ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？
(2) Do you know what A is?
窶啻窶堙坂?ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩ窶冦窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？

Now in your sentence A is "my favourite kanji".
I hope from the above explanation, you can make some more sentences with the same structure.

窶ｹﾃ篠（窶堙や?堙??堙溪?堙ｩﾂ）窶壺?凪?壺?懌?督ｱﾂ（窶堙や?堙??堙淞）窶壺?凪?壺?懌?慊ｭﾂ（窶堙坂?堋ｽ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｭﾂ）ﾂ？ﾂ
ﾂ住ﾂ（窶堋ｷ窶堙楪）窶壺?凪?壺?懌?ｹﾂ渉（窶堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ）ﾂ？

These all apparently noun "work", and these "live in/reside?

First of all, all the above are not nouns but verbs.
窶ｹﾃ寂?堙溪?堙ｩ: to work (for organization/work place i.e. company, shop, factory, etc.)
窶督ｱ窶堙溪?堙ｩ: to serve, to take/stand (a role)
窶慊ｭ窶堋ｭﾂ： to work, to do (the job) similar to ﾅｽdﾅｽ窶凪?堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ.

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?堋ｱ窶堙娯?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙?0窶扼窶ｹﾃ寂?堙溪?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
窶ｹﾅｽ窶扼ﾂ、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?堋ｱ窶堙娯?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙娯?枠ﾂ坂?｡窶堙??枠ﾂ坂?｡窶卍ｷ窶堙ｰ窶督ｱ窶堙溪?堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙??慊ｭ窶堋ｭ窶堙娯?堙最?y窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

There's a noun 窶ｹﾃ寂?督ｱﾂ（窶堋ｫ窶堙ｱ窶堙楪）which means service, duty (both related to work)

窶敕樞?堙坂?ｹﾃ寂?督ｱ窶佚披?忸窶堋ｪﾋ?ｫ窶堋｢窶堙娯?堙?ｽﾃｱ窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

ﾂ住窶堙楪：to live
窶ｹﾂ鞘?堙ｩ: to be (to exist), to stay

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒窶堙可住窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ債｡窶愿ｺ窶堙坂?啀窶愿ｺ窶吮??窶ｰﾃ??堙俄?ｹﾂ鞘?堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

ﾂ住窶ｹﾂ渉：residence (noun)

 

[Elizabeth]

Your attempts are really quite excellent for a beginner, Putrefaction, even someone who had studied a year or two never mind a matter of months.

When I began a few years ago it was without a board like this for immediate feedback which solidified all my bad habits of coming out with very unnatural things like 何が私の一番好きな漢字なのか知っていますか？ instead of Topic は何か知っていますか？as undrentide demonstrated.


...*And still doesn't get what is so wrong about it....*...

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh cool thanks! Undrentide I'd rep you again but I need to spread some more around. I'm in the middle of Biochem and work at 2 so I'll have to re-read those again, I'll also post what my teacher said!

Yeah Elizabeth I get what you mean! My teacher said my sentence was "extremely English" which I guess is what you meant as well! I'll have to read into ka particle, I never came across that yet. I'll probably only get it after a month or so...just like adjectives and the ni particle when doing ga arimasu haha.

 

[Elizabeth]

Yeah Elizabeth I get what you mean! My teacher said my sentence was "extremely English" which I guess is what you meant as well! I'll have to read into ka particle, I never came across that yet. I'll probably only get it after a month or so...just like adjectives and the ni particle when doing ga arimasu haha.

You can do the research on "embedded question" and か when you really need to know. But for now think of か within the sentence as basically a nominalizer that makes the preceeding clause into a question. So 私の(が)一番好きな漢字は何か知っていますか？

What is my favorite kanji ? Do you know ? という風に感じだね。 葉？？？

For generations, （世） the plant life on a tree (木)。。。イメージがいいですね。


これは私のですけど。。。宿。

 

[Putrefaction]

Small update (I still havent formally read everything anatomy at 7:35 AM...I promise Friday I will!!) on Friday we're having a Kanji test on 1-10, yen, and time. Haha!

---

I am now reading:

私は、働いているので、自動翻訳者と速く書いています。誤りを許してくださいね。

今、英語で、I'm not eating my banana には、食べるような気分ではない, 今は食べる気がしない, 食べれないよ, バナナなどを食べることを拒絶するなどとういう意味も含まれている。

しかし自分自身について話す場合、日本人ならそんな [私は食べていません] は良く使わないだろうね。

説明をありがとう !!!

Here is an awesomely loose fail-filled translation.

I working at, one work translation person and something writing. something. now, in english, im not eating my banana... let us eat not spirit part...and then I lose mostly everything until imi (idea+taste?) and then i see setsumei o arigato.

行かなかったと思いますが
行きませんでしたと思いますが

I actually just learned about this I think, is it "I think I didn't go...."?

(1) is very basic but (2) is much more complicated.

(1) What is A?
Ａは何ですか？
(2) Do you know what A is?
Ａは何か知っていますか？

Hmm. I know the first one from a very long time ago, let's see...

koreは何か知っていますか?

hai, shitte imasu. kore wa akashingo no shashin desu.

Watashi no sukina kanji wa nani ka shitte imasu ka?

First of all, all the above are not nouns but verbs. . . .

I will read this!

very unnatural things like 何が私の一番好きな漢字なのか知っていますか？ instead of Topic は何か知っていますか？as undrentide demonstrated.

Why is nanoka in there? Isn't that the 7th day?

But for now think of か within the sentence as basically a nominalizer that makes the preceeding clause into a question.

Eh...please dumb it down to 2nd grade level haha!

 

[Putrefaction]

Well, I can't edit anymore.

在米国日本国大使館

Stole that off the US Japanese Embassy page - zai beikoku nihonkoku daishikan? (outskirts america japan big use building)

 

[Toritoribe]

Why is nanoka in there? Isn't that the 7th day?

窶堙? the adnominal form of the auxiliary verb 窶堋ｾ
窶堙? the nominalizer
窶堋ｩ: the particle to make an interrogative clause

Stole that off the US Japanese Embassy page - zai beikoku nihonkoku daishikan? (outskirts america japan big use building)

ﾂ催 is a prefix meaning "(residing) in" in this case.
e.g.
ﾂ催昶?愿ｺﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人: foreigners residing in Japan

窶佚･ﾅｽgﾅ?ﾃ is one word.

窶佚･ﾅｽgﾅ?ﾃ ﾂ【窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｱﾂ】 embassy

Thus, ﾂ催昶?｢ﾃ?坂?倪?愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ坂?倪?佚･ﾅｽgﾅ?ﾃ means "Embassy of Japan in the United States of America," as you can see on the top of the page.;-)

 

[Putrefaction]

I see, I see...is my bolded sentence alright? Also:
kono hon o minasai: (command) look at this book?
易 = yasashii or yasui? I see in wiki's kanji list it is yasashii and on verb conj it is yasui.
(sugiru can also be used with the stems of adjectives.) So what I'm going to attempt to do is as usual, complicate it by using a -te and combining two things if I can.
kore wa tsumaranakute yasui sugiru. (this is overly boring and easy).
kinoo tabete nomisugiru. (do i conjugate the -ru to -masu?)
有る aru: This forms a kind of passive when used with a transitive verb. So, if a professor leaves the class with a question and then the next time they meet: ototoi mondai wa totte aru ne?
みる miru: It means "to try doing". wasabi o tabete miru?

I'm going to stop there for now, I ran through the verb conj and just did Genki Chapter 8 pt 2.

 

[undrentide]

I see, I see...is my bolded sentence alright? Also:
kono hon o minasai: (command) look at this book?

Yes, it's correct.

ﾋ? = yasashii or yasui? I see in wiki's kanji list it is yasashii and on verb conj it is yasui.
(sugiru can also be used with the stems of adjectives.)

ﾋ? on its own is pronounced 窶堋｢ or 窶堋ｦ窶堋ｫ.
When talking about pronounciation, you should take 窶倪?披?堙ｨ窶ｰﾂｼ窶督ｼﾂ（窶堋ｨ窶堋ｭ窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙按） into consideration too.
ﾋ?補?堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ： yasashii. Antonym is 窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ muzukasii.
ﾋ?補?堋｢ﾂ： yasui. Same meaning as ﾋ?補?堋ｵ窶堋｢ but ﾋ?補?堋｢ is not used on its own but with verb. It is usually written in kana, though.
e.g.
窶愿??堙昶?堙｢窶堋ｷﾂ（ﾋ?閉）窶堋｢ easy to read
窶堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙｢窶堋ｷﾂ（ﾋ?閉）窶堋｢ easy to understand

So what I'm going to attempt to do is as usual, complicate it by using a -te and combining two things if I can.
kore wa tsumaranakute yasui sugiru. (this is overly boring and easy).
kinoo tabete nomisugiru. (do i conjugate the -ru to -masu?)

This is overly boring and easy.
kore wa tsumarana sugi te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumarana sugiru shi yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranai shi yasashi sugiru.

窶猫窶堙ｩ aru: This forms a kind of passive when used with a transitive verb. So, if a professor leaves the class with a question and then the next time they meet: ototoi mondai wa totte aru ne?

ﾂ〜窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ : to be left at a certain state/condition
to be done something (in preparation for a certain purpose)
ﾂ〜窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋ｭ : to leave (something/someone) at a certain state/condition
to do (something) (in preparation for a certain purpose)


ototoi no mondai wa totte (oite) aru ne?
the question from the day before yesterday was kept and is still in the same situation, isn't it?
= do you still have the question from the day before yesterday (because I'm going to ask you for the answer now)?
(The teacher asked the question the day before yesterday. You were either given a paper of the question or took note of the question yourself.
Now the teacher is asking if you still have it, he thinks you do but wants to make sure of it.)

窶堙昶?堙ｩ miru: It means "to try doing". wasabi o tabete miru?

You got it right!
Wasabi wo tabete miru? Would you try (eating) wasabi?

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh snap. That is a lot of stuff I did wrong! I will read that after work today and definitely give you rep as soon as I can!
---
I'm not going to read them right now as I'm dead tired but I saw this on wikipedia


the 2nd two kanji are what, wave and station, is the full compound (something)haeki? i almost said zatsu but it kinda looks like the word for hard...hard wave station...

 

[Glenn]

It's written right below it. Eki just means "station," and Namba is the name of the eki. If I remember right it used to be Naniwa, but it seems people just tried reading it without knowing how it was read, and ending up with on'yomi, thus Namba (so-called kan'you yomi, or "readings that came to be commonly used" (sorry, don't really know a good translation for that word)). Not sure if the characters are ateji or not, though.

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh, cool thanks. Also where have you been haha!

 

[Elizabeth]

～てある : to be left at a certain state/condition
to be done something (in preparation for a certain purpose)
～ておく : to leave (something/someone) at a certain state/condition
to do (something) (in preparation for a certain purpose)


ototoi no mondai wa totte (oite) aru ne?
the question from the day before yesterday was kept and is still in the same situation, isn't it?
= do you still have the question from the day before yesterday (because I'm going to ask you for the answer now)?
(The teacher asked the question the day before yesterday. You were either given a paper of the question or took note of the question yourself.
Now the teacher is asking if you still have it, he thinks you do but wants to make sure of it.)

Wouldn't ～～wo/ha totte oita (okimashita) ne." be much more common for the same situation, though ? Suggesting that the subject of the verb has done something for a future purpose or convenience and that the action has been/is still being kept in that resultative state.


This entry is really confusing. The ある・おいた in the example above is a construction in which the speaker is known and in fact an action performed by that agent. With a few exceptions, it takes a totally different focus and perspective than が書いて有る -- in which the actor may or may not be known but what is important is the change of state itself, not who inititated the behavior.

Wikipedia:
This forms a kind of passive when used with a transitive verb. ここに文字が書いて有る koko ni moji ga kaite aru: "There are some characters written here". It shows that something was left in a certain state. Contrast to 書いている "kaite iru", "I am writing", which applies to the person doing the writing rather than what is written.

 

[undrentide]

Wouldn't ﾂ〜ﾂ〜wo/ha totte oita (okimashita) ne." be much more common for the same situation, though ? Suggesting that the subject of the verb has done something for a future purpose or convenience and that the action has been/is still being kept in that resultative state.

Well, I do not think so.
For me either totte oita or totte oite aru will do.

窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩﾂ (combination of 窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋ｭﾂ＋窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩﾂ） are commonly used.
e.g.
ﾂ「窶堙懌?堋ｾﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈ﾂ、ﾅｽc窶堙≫?堙??堙ｩﾂ？ﾂ」
ﾂ「窶佚･ﾂ湘､窶｢vﾂ、窶堋ｫ窶堙昶?堙娯?｢ﾂｪ窶堙坂?堋ｿ窶堙｡窶堙ｱ窶堙??堙??堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｳﾂ」

This entry is really confusing. The 窶堋?窶堙ｩﾂ・窶堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ in the example above is a construction in which the speaker is known and in fact an action performed by that agent. With a few exceptions, it takes a totally different focus and perspective than 窶堋ｪﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??猫窶堙ｩ -- in which the actor may or may not be known but what is important is the change of state itself, not who inititated the behavior.

ﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ and ﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ are different.
And what I explained is on the first one, not the latter...

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh undrentide, I forgot to tell you. I did read your statements and the only one I obviously understood was "kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.". The rest are above me. I feel bad because you guys post so much help yet I don't have the time to look at it!

Also for fun (and if you have time to waste) go back to the first page and read all the stuff I said and look how I progress. Oh, if I could go back in time....

 

[Glenn]

Oh, cool thanks. Also where have you been haha!

Well, there was the matter of this classic anime that I felt compelled to watch all 153 episodes of, and then there was my decision to spend more time on Japanese sites, like Japanese Wikipedia and Japanese news sites. Also I've been doing reps nearly every day now in my SRS, and that can take up lots of time as well.

Oh undrentide, I forgot to tell you. I did read your statements and the only one I obviously understood was "kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.". The rest are above me. I feel bad because you guys post so much help yet I don't have the time to look at it!

My first thought wasn't even mentioned: 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?堙｢窶堋ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｷ窶堋ｬ窶堙??堙や?堙懌?堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ。

Also for fun (and if you have time to waste) go back to the first page and read all the stuff I said and look how I progress. Oh, if I could go back in time....

I didn't need to. When I came back and saw you still at it and where you were (once I realized it was you: the name change threw me) my first thought was, "wow, he's really coming along!" Keep it up!

 

[Elizabeth]

Well, I do not think so.
For me either totte oita or totte oite aru will do.

窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩﾂ (combination of 窶堙??堋ｨ窶堋ｭﾂ＋窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩﾂ） are commonly used.
e.g.
ﾂ「窶堙懌?堋ｾﾆ単ﾂーﾆ鱈ﾂ、ﾅｽc窶堙≫?堙??堙ｩﾂ？ﾂ」
ﾂ「窶佚･ﾂ湘､窶｢vﾂ、窶堋ｫ窶堙昶?堙娯?｢ﾂｪ窶堙坂?堋ｿ窶堙｡窶堙ｱ窶堙??堙??堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｳﾂ」

窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！ﾂ ﾂ 窶堋ｫ窶堙昶?堙娯?｢ﾂｪ窶堙債、ﾂ「窶堙ｭ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙娯?｢ﾃ崘津ｬ窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃｳ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ」窶堙≫?堙??堋ｱ窶堙??堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙仰。ﾂ

 

[undrentide]

窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！ﾂ ﾂ 窶堋ｫ窶堙昶?堙娯?｢ﾂｪ窶堙債、ﾂ「窶堙ｭ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙娯?｢ﾃ崘津ｬ窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃｳ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ」窶堙≫?堙??堋ｱ窶堙??堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙仰。ﾂ

窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｻ窶堋､ﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙ｱ窶堙闇?'窶堋ｶ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

 

[Elizabeth]

my first thought wasn't even mentioned: これはやさしすぎてつまらない。

説明的なニュアンスが加えられてしまって、意味が変わることもあるね。


説明力！;-)

 

[Elizabeth]

Oh undrentide, I forgot to tell you. I did read your statements and the only one I obviously understood was "kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.". The rest are above me. I feel bad because you guys post so much help yet I don't have the time to look at it!

窶堋ｻ窶堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋ｱ窶堙??堙債渉ｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙?窶ｹC窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堙仰。 窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙按鞘?倪?堋ｫﾂ最ｾ窶堙昶?堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙昶?堙遺?堋ｳ窶堋｢ﾂ。Certainly someone else will get to it if you don't, that's for sure -- so read only what is beneficial at the time, cut out what you can and don't care a bean what we or anyone else thinks. ﾂ

 

[Putrefaction]

Alright so I have one more question.

Watashi no uchi ni tomodachi ni ai ni kaete imasu. This is probably the most complex sentence I've made. I want it to say, I'm returning home to meet with my friend. I doubt I got it right, but on the off chance...

And actually please go over this? I'm not sure about these at all!

This is overly boring and easy.
kore wa tsumarana sugi te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumarana sugiru shi yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranai shi yasashi sugiru.

 

[Elizabeth]

Alright so I have one more question.

Watashi no uchi ni tomodachi ni ai ni kaete imasu. This is probably the most complex sentence I've made. I want it to say, I'm returning home to meet with my friend. I doubt I got it right, but on the off chance...

A daring attempt ! And very, very close. You only unwittingly walked into a landmine-filled rut because talking about verbs of motion correctly is one of the most difficult parts of learning Japanese. But it's different from a progressive aspect or tense. Only to refer to "the current state that result from prior movements" have I ever heard "Kaette imasu" used in normal conversation. So when someone says "kaette inai" my overwhelmingly strong feeling is that the person I'm trying to reach has not arrived home yet, "kaette imasu" meaning already be there.

Still ask around, though, because maybe there are regional differences in basic grammar or whatnot, this is just how things are practiced around the native friends I am familiar with.

To express that a movement is continuous or on-going a slightly different expression will be needed, such as one of these :

kaeru tokoro desu
kaeru tochuu desu

 

[Putrefaction]

Hmm... Damn! I wanted to say that I was currently in the motion, as in if you asked me in the train. tokoro = place, let me ask you, if I just said kaerimasu would it have been ok?