Help How do I read kanji?

[Toritoribe]

I'd think of the action of blooming as similar to opening the mouth, so it's connected in that way.

Actually, 咲 originally means "to smile" in Chinese. It means "to bloom" only in Japanese because of an idiom 鳥鳴き花笑ふ, so "mouth" has noting to do with "bloom" etymologically.

咲の意味と読み方｜漢字辞典
(all in Japanese)

I don't recall seeing that kanji before, but again, you can remember it by thinking of a shell opening its "mouth" as mimicking the action of singing.

That might be useful to remember the kanji 唄 just like Memrise, KanjiDamage or WaniKani, as lanthas-san mentioned, but again 貝 only provides the pronunciation of 唄 etymologically.

Radicals indeed often can give a part of the meaning of kanji, but the OP asked why the combination of the components can't express the meaning of the kanji. I don't think 'the action of blooming as similar to opening the mouth' or 'a shell opening its "mouth" as mimicking the action of singing' can be useful for their question. It's not even correct in the first place.

 

[joadbres]

Aren't you putting words in his mouth? He literally just said "口 means it has something to do with breathing" and later listed a few characters with it as the main radical to prove that point; it wasn't even clear if he had made that connection between the placement of the radical and its influence on the character's meaning.

I was thinking of when it's placed on the left as referring to actions performed with the mouth, which often involve the use of breath.

It was clear to me, because I read his posts carefully before commenting on them.

 

[nice gaijin]

It was clear to me, because I read his posts carefully before commenting on them.

ah, I didn't see the second post you quoted; I was going off the stuff he had posted previously, without additional prompting. The example is still inaccurate, and now he's just making up mnemonic devices. Maybe helpful to remember, but not correct.

As @Toritoribe pointed out, there is a lot to consider about kanji when learning how its been used over the centuries; the more you study it and get comfortable with it, the more you realize how little you know.

 

[NotaWeeb]

I don't think you were wrong, per se, but I think it would be more accurate and complete to say that the 口 radical indicates actions performed with the mouth. (Other than speaking, which is marked using a different radical.)

This is 'speak' isn't it? 言

 

[Transformer5]

I mentioned it on another forum (not trying to advertise it), but I find jisho.org useful for this. You can look up radicals and you get a whole list of the kanji that use them, which you can then click on to find further information on them.

I don't think 'the action of blooming as similar to opening the mouth' or 'a shell opening its "mouth" as mimicking the action of singing' can be useful for their question. It's not even correct in the first place.

At the level the OP appears to be at, I would have thought that the etymology of kanji isn't as useful as having a means for recognizing and remembering them, which is why I mentioned it. I find it useful.

I seem to remember having a phase where I was scratching my head too about the lack of logic in the individual parts of kanji. These days however, I just take them as they come, and devise similar means to the ones I've outlined for remembering them.

 

[joadbres]

This is 'speak' isn't it? 言

Yes, that's right.

 

[nice gaijin]

At the level the OP appears to be at, I would have thought that the etymology of kanji isn't as useful as having a means for recognizing and remembering them, which is why I mentioned it. I find it useful.

I seem to remember having a phase where I was scratching my head too about the lack of logic in the individual parts of kanji. These days however, I just take them as they come, and devise similar means to the ones I've outlined for remembering them.

This is the Heisig approach, to use "imaginative memory" to create mnemonic devices that make sense to the learner so they can remember the character... but that's just forcing people to make a superficial connection that holds no actual truth or meaning, an association that--further down the road--is just an additional layer of synapses you have to fire through to get to the information you're really after, and your triggers for remembering won't necessarily make sense to someone else, so it's a highly personalized (and therefore not easily conveyed) kind of knowledge.

It's possible to become literate through methods like this, but for me, fluency means there are no barriers between me and my understanding of the word in front of me. Mnemonics are like a support wall while you're building a room; it makes it easier to accomplish the initial task, but when the job is done you now have to navigate around this wall in the middle of your room, or spend some time and energy breaking down that barrier and getting away from its less-helpful habits. Shortcuts that dance over the complexity of kanji can be helpful to some people at a certain stage in their learning, but as a pedagogical approach I would avoid it in favor of learning through context.

 

[nice gaijin]

Tofugu did a decent write up on some of the methods people use to study kanji: The 7 Different Ways to Learn Kanji (As I See It)

 

[Toritoribe]

At the level the OP appears to be at, I would have thought that the etymology of kanji isn't as useful as having a means for recognizing and remembering them, which is why I mentioned it. I find it useful.

As I wrote, the OP is not asking about how to recognize and remember kanji in this thread in the first place. That's why I pointed out it's useless for their question. Indeed your "explanation" of 唄 might be useful for remembering it, but 咲 is not so unless you can connect 旁 of 咲 with flower.
I agree with nice gaijin-san. I, either, don't recommend this method. That reminds me of an episode. There was a best-seller textbook of a title "How to remember English words" or like that in my high school days. I still remember an example; "to confess: この増え過ぎた体重を告白する (コンフェス is nearly equal to このふえす in pronunciation)" with an illustration that a little bit fat woman on a scale is talking to a man on the page. I used to tend to use "to confess" for a while even for the situation where "to propose" or "to admit" is appropriate because of remembering this "confess = 告白する" without any context.

 

[Transformer5]

As I wrote, the OP is not asking about how to recognize and remember kanji in this thread in the first place. That's why I pointed out it's useless for their question.

He stated that the meaning of kanji isn't similar to the meanings of radicals, implying that he was looking at the individual radicals and their meaning as a way of understanding and remembering kanji. My advice is not to worry about that at his level (it's a waste of time) and focus on other ways of remembering them.

 

[Toritoribe]

As I already pointed out, he mentioned "components", so it's obvious that he is not talking about only radicals. Furthermore, "not to worry about that" doesn't seem to be your initial purpose judging from your posts so far. Or rather, you have been trying to connect the meaning of the kanji to the radical. If "not to worry about that" is what you really want to say, I think it would be enough that you just agree with Mike-san's post instead of picking up only kanji that have something to do with "mouth" or "breath" from his list or there is no need to mention about your idea regarding the relation between "mouth" and "shell" or "to bloom".
論点ずらそうとするぐらいなら、そろそろ白旗の揚げ時なのでは？

 

[Transformer5]

Furthermore, "not to worry about that" doesn't seem to be your initial purpose judging from your posts so far. Or rather, you have been trying to connect the meaning of the kanji to the radical.

I've been trying to simplify it for him, because at the level he's at, it's just going to waste his time looking into the etymology of kanji, if he's still trying to just learn them. It would be more helpful to utilize the systems that nice gaijin posted above. The 7 Different Ways to Learn Kanji (As I See It)

Mike's post was a cut and past job from some website. I doubt he even knows what any of those kanji mean, let alone the etymology of them, so the OP has no chance.

 

[Majestic]

And another thread gets poisoned.

 

[Toritoribe]

I've been trying to simplify it for him, because at the level he's at, it's just going to waste his time looking into the etymology of kanji, if he's still trying to just learn them.

That's already explained by other members including me before you said so. Anyway, it seems to be nothing but a real waste of time to hear your excuses anymore.

I doubt he even knows what any of those kanji mean

You just don't know how fluent he is in Japanese.

And another thread gets poisoned.

I have to apologize for taking part in it. Sorry.

 

[Mike Cash]

Mike's post was a cut and past job from some website. I doubt he even knows what any of those kanji mean, let alone the etymology of them

You were saying?

Let's see yours.

Pass rate was under 20%, by the way, and that's among Japanese people who worked to prepare for it.

 

[Transformer5]

That's already explained by other members including me before you said so. Anyway, it seems to be nothing but a real waste of time to hear your excuses anymore.


You just don't know how fluent he is in Japanese.


I have to apologize for taking part in it. Sorry.

So now I've got three posters ganging up on me. I would have thought better of you than to join in with that.

Can you actually explain what I've done that's caused so much consternation? I made a few harmless comments about how I learn kanji, and gave what I thought was a little bit of helpful advice, which other posters agreed with, and it seems to have caused a riot on here.

Pardon me for breathing.

 

[Transformer5]

View attachment 24926

You were saying?

Let's see yours.

View attachment 24926

You were saying?

Let's see yours.

How much did you pay them?

 

[Mike Cash]

How much did you pay them?

What's the going price for sour grapes in your neck of the woods?

 

[Transformer5]

What's the going price for sour grapes in your neck of the woods?

No sour grapes here. I think you've over-extended yourself somewhat. I wasn't on here to have a kanji competition, and I wouldn't post personal information on here anyway, let alone parade my personal achievements in front of people.

Do you always welcome people to the forum like this?

 

[thomas]

I am very sorry for the OP, but this thread no longer serves any purpose. I have therefore closed it. @NotaWeeb , please start another thread if you have any related questions.