Greetings From Yokohama!

[Golgo_13]

So Elizabeth told you? It's still wrong, I'm afraid

No, I knew the answer. I'm telling you to ask her for a second opinion if you don't believe me.

BTW, thanks for not calling me a retarded idiot like you did about my former German teacher.

I think Golgo is correct as well. The mo ii form is more like permission to still call someone even if it's late in the evening or use someone else's belongings or something, so taking their picture would fall under that category. But I'm at work and really don't have time to think clearly about it now.

Thanks Liz!

Danke schon!

Lina, my husband is a native Japanese person and he says it doesn't really make any sense. He says Golgo's is perfect and 'normal' Japanese. Golgo is Japanese, after all.

Besides, almost everyone in Japan can understand the English phrase, "may I/can I take picture?", I think.

Thanks KNM! And please thank your hubby for me! Tell him "Chikai uchi ni ippai ikimashou!"

Well, if you say so... it's still not very polite though.
Besides that, Golgo isn't Japanese. He's a native New Yorker and is now living in Los Angeles (look here).

Right, like the real Golgo 13 the assasin, I'm a person of unknown nationality.

I am no longer a Japanese citizen, so my official nationality is American.

However, I was born in Japan to Japanese parents, and spent the first 9 years of my life there. I call myself a native New Yorker because that's where I grew up and I consider it my "home town." I speak fluent Japanese and have done translation work professionally.

Well, in German it's common consens to ask "can I" (Kann ich) when asking for permission. "May I" (darf ich) is considered as old-fashined and overly polite and would get you odd looks most times.

Then go take photos of girls in Berlin.

 

[RockLee]

Lina....although my Japanese is not ANY KIND OF GOOD....I still would believe a Japanese person over you .....besides...Japanese is NOT the same as german, it is rather complicated, and u say words in a different position in a sentence(just like in French you don't literally translate a sentence )....

 

[Golgo_13]

Thanks Rock!

Go Rock! Go Rock Lee!

 

[kirei_na_me]

Japanese is NOT the same as german, it is rather complicated, and u say words in a different position in a sentence(just like in French you don't literally translate a sentence

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, but didn't out of fear...

 

[RockLee]

Well....in the short period I learned a little Japanese, and the FIRST thing is that you don't just translate words and put them in the exact order as your own language...to think that would be even more stupid

 

[Elizabeth]

In English we may well use can more than may as well, but nani nani te mo ii really isn't a literal translation of may either. More like even though I take your picture, is it good? Is it alright? Ergo --> Is it alright/OK if I take your picture? Becomes perhaps the most natural expression in both languages. The most obvious misunderstanding of word order was in the initial translation not putting 'Because' in the initial position. Because you're so pretty....' as it is nearly always the conditional equivilant in English.

 

[Keiichi]

I don't want to jump in on the German/Japanese stuff, but if anyone's studied speech and communication, the general German and Japanese culture are on the far ends of each other on the spectrum concerning the imporatance of context in spoken communication and context in non-spoken communication (bowing, etc), where Japanese is on the side of non-spoken and German on the side of spoken, such that what and how you say something is quite important in Germany (and even US, but less). So in Japan, if you bow, present your camera, and speak/ask politely, you can do pretty well. Saying that the girls are cute would probably flatter them since you're directly telling them.

 

[Elizabeth]

Hey cool, that's the same hotel I stayed at when I went to Yokohama last year! If you have time, Kamakura is close by and is one of the best historical tourist attractions in all of Japan. Also, now is a good time to go check out Yokosuka if you are a Shenmue fan.

I have a strong preference for the beauty and tranquility of Kamakura and Kita Kamakura as well, m477.

Particularly Engaku-ji Temple
Zeni-Arai Benten Shrine
Hokokuji Temple
and of course the Daibutsu (Great Buddha)

 

[oboro_tukiyo]

Hi.playaa.
I am glad for you to enjoy a travel of Japan.
Did you decides stay hotel in kyoto?
I recommend Kyoto Palace Side Hotel .
It's cheap and comfortable hotel in Kyoto.
The staff who speaks English is in this hotel for 24 hours.
Free Internet access PC.
Cheap rental bicycle.
Buffet style breakfast.( good tast!)
Very good!
.....I'm not staff lol.
good luck!

 

[den4]

Since I usually profess of not knowing anything, Lina, you can take my words with an iceberg of salt, but.....

in this particular situation, I'm afraid what Golgo has explained to you is correct. How Japanese is taught to foriegners is not necessarily the way it is spoken outside the classroom, or formal business situations. And, to make things more tricky, each prefecture has its own quirks and dialects on how they use Japanese. Kyoto's usage may be the reverse meaning of what outside of Kyoto people would say, Tokyoites are less direct than folks in Osaka, and so forth.

Not to dampen your spirits any, but the one thing I learned while living in Japan is that to really understand Japanese very well, you have to get rid of any pre-conceived notions you learned while in the classroom. Just when you think you know everything you want to know about Japanese, you find that there are nuances to the language that you have never even thought about. And the one thing about nihongo that is hard to keep up with is that it changes faster than a rap artist spinning his tunes out. Trying to understand the young people gets harder as the slang they use would make any jivin' foreigner blush with envy...

the moral of this story, and I'm not here to preach, is that Japanese is not a western-styled language where you can rely upon western logic and experience to go with its flow.....you have to live there and immerse yourself and adapt with the constant changes before suggesting another person is incorrect in what they offer in the usage of Japanese. Some things are blatantly wrong, true, but remember that Japanese is an indirect language. The more you understand it, the more you are less likely to use a direct mode of speaking when using it....that's what makes it difficult at times to know how to express yourself.

There are some Japanese these days that are more Westernized, so they are more blunt in their statements than they used to be, but even these westernized folks know when to be humble, and bow their heads (despite what their personal feelings may be). My two yens worth in this particular situation is merely to do as the Japanese do, and just simply admit an error was made (I have to agree with others, that at this particular moment of this writing that there is no such word as "Daikawaii" unless it's being used as some new funky slang by foreigners trying to join some jpop group using engrish) and be done with it.

Enough of my two yen...can't even use the yen since I don't live there anymore....and for what it's worth, just remember that I'm the fella that knows less than all of you :?

 

[Elizabeth]

My two yens worth in this particular situation is merely to do as the Japanese do, and just simply admit an error was made (I have to agree with others, that at this particular moment of this writing that there is no such word as "Daikawaii" unless it's being used as some new funky slang by foreigners trying to join some jpop group using engrish) and be done with it.

Very well said, den4. Even in cases like this where the modifier large (selectively "dai" but generally ookii or takusan) may be strongly implied in English, it won't necessarily turn out so in Japanese. An academic or professional conference may be ookii kaigi (large meeting), but often just conversationally 'kaigi,' leaving it to background context to fill in the intended meaning, 'tai(dai)kai being closer to an annual convention or international gathering. Or 'I'll do everything in my power to help you' is downgraded to 'I'll do as much as possible, or I'll do what I can.' (Anata wo tasukerutame nara, dekiru dake no koto wo suru).

It is hard to explain, though, since so much is left out. Something that can only be believed with experience.

 

[den4]

maybe I came across as too preachy....sorry if that is so....damn....I keep apologizing....sounding like a Japanese person more and more everyday.... :?

 

[Lina Inverse]

Well, I just went by what was written in my kanji handbook which mentioned that 'dai' can also mean 'very'. If that's wrong, blame the editor (Wolfgang Hadamitzky) although I had the feeling that he knows what he's talking about...
But if you tell me that he's wrong and it isn't used that way, I'll believe you

 

[den4]

Well, I just went by what was written in my kanji handbook which mentioned that 'dai' can also mean 'very'. If that's wrong, blame the editor (Wolfgang Hadamitzky) although I had the feeling that he knows what he's talking about...
But if you tell me that he's wrong and it isn't used that way, I'll believe you

One of the problems I came across when I was teaching in Japan at various corporations around the Tokyo metro area was that they relied heavily on their Japanese to Engrish Dictionaries...
The problem was that they all believed that if it was in the dictionary, then it had to be true. Case in point, as an example:

Look up any Japanese to English dictionary available now (unless it's been revised and corrected recently) the word Hotondo. In the dictionary (ok, you'll have to know how to read hiragana at least) it lists in the Sanseido Daily Concise 4th edition (I have in my hands now) that hotondo is: almost, nearly.

One of the phrases I often heard in Japanese conversation is: "hotondo no nihonjin wa..." or "Most Japanese are...." as it should be translated as, but virtually all the Japanese students (and they were businessmen, businesswomen, engineers, architects, scientists, yeah, I taught all sorts of people while I was there of varying ages and backgrounds and those that came from various prefectures) always ended up saying: "Almost Japanese people are..."
Only the very few that lived in the US or other English speaking nation ever said "Almost all Japanese..." or "Most Japanese..."
The ones living in Japan would be saying "Almost Japanese...." around 90% of the time. I couldn't figure out where they learned that, because no native English speaker would teach that....then I figured out after a time, that they all relied upon the trusty Japanese to Engrish dictionaries far too much for their own good, because they were afraid to ask the instructor questions, and they liked to rely upon a book rather than embarrassing themselves in front of the class...
When I finally showed them that the dictionary was wrong, they were stunned. They couldn't conceive that a book made by a professional entity like Sanseido would introduce a mistake in their translations....
But the Sanseido didn't introduce the mistake...the students made the mistake by failing to understand that when translating a language into another one you can't rely upon a dictionary to give examples of all usages in all circumstances...

This is why some of them olde Japanese black and white movies that were translated from the early '60's and '70's were comical, because the translator was doing the same thing. I used to do the same thing, so I know it happens all the time. Sometimes I still do

And there are some stubborn fools with professional backgrounds in languages who have egos larger than their understanding of the language that keep putting forth tomes of knowledge that is better left for the tabloid press...

In short, when in doubt, ask a native speaker....they may not be able to answer why something is said in one fashion or another, but they can keep you from making a mistake that could come back to haunt you later...

that's my two yen's worth plus another yen for personal experience

to err is human....to keep making the same error leads to candidacy of Darwin Awards...

 

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, Japanese is absolutely littered with sentences that can't be properly translated from a dictionary. Something I received in the mail just today : Jikan ga nakattara,
muri shinai de kudasai. Huh? If you don't have time, please don't do the impossible or unreasonable. If you don't have time, don't make that extra effort or don't try doing too much in a short period. Mou sugu Nihon desune. ?? Soon it will be Japan ?? 'Soon we'll be going to Japan' to iu fuu ni narimasune.

 

[kirei_na_me]

And there are some stubborn fools with professional backgrounds in languages who have egos larger than their understanding of the language that keep putting forth tomes of knowledge that is better left for the tabloid press...

Exactly. They're all too common.

In short, when in doubt, ask a native speaker....they may not be able to answer why something is said in one fashion or another, but they can keep you from making a mistake that could come back to haunt you later...

that's my two yen's worth plus another yen for personal experience

to err is human....to keep making the same error leads to candidacy of Darwin Awards...

You know more than what you give yourself credit for, den4...

 

[Lina Inverse]

<sarcasm>
Ok, no problem, I'll just keep myself a native Japanese speaker, I should still have an old hamster cage somewhere... well, perhaps something bigger would be better, and the running wheel is probably much to small as well, so I should get a bigger one either. Are there any special tricks he can learn?
</sarcasm>

Well, you see, getting a native Japanese speaker over here is near impossible, so it's not an option and you pretty much have no big choice but trusting these dictionaries
But luckily, we have some competent people here who'll tell you soon enough so you'll see if the dictionary was right.

 

[Elizabeth]

And let this be our first lesson in the latter half of this thread.

「辞書だけでは細かいところまでは教えられないね」

 

[den4]

yeah, when no native speakers are available, then you do have to trust the dictionary, to a degree....but then, like you said, Lina, you do have people here who can offer some help......
but until you're burning the candle from all eight sides, you should be safe from nihongrish....

Purple Eyes: Didn't you use to be the ending song title track for the Hokuto No Ken movie?

 

[playaa]

Uhm, the girl that came back to my hotel with me last night Mayumi says Golgo is right 100%, but from people I have asked they say, kimi kirei desu ka I do not know if it is spelled that way, but pronounce it and try to see if I remember correctly.

 

[Uncle Frank]

And Here I Am Loosing Sleep Worrying...

about you not being on line!! NOW I understand what kept you too busy for the Forum!! Hope it was safe!!!

Frank

 

[Keiichi]

Uhm, the girl that came back to my hotel with me last night Mayumi says Golgo is right 100%, but from people I have asked they say, kimi kirei desu ka I do not know if it is spelled that way, but pronounce it and try to see if I remember correctly.

Whoa, bruddah, what have you been doing? (So, what's your secret? How'd you get her to come with you? )

 

[Elizabeth]

Uhm, the girl that came back to my hotel with me last night Mayumi says Golgo is right 100%, but from people I have asked they say, kimi kirei desu ka I do not know if it is spelled that way, but pronounce it and try to see if I remember correctly.

Hey you, are you pretty ?

 

[Keiichi]

So playaa asks Japanese girls to go back with him to the hotel room to check on the internet on some message board whether someone said something correctly in Japanese so that he can say it to other girls to be able to take pictures of them. Slick, dude, slick.

 

[Uncle Frank]

I Heard ......

he made a suit out of 10,000 yen bills to wear around!!

Frank