Forced integration

[thomas]

This news is not Japan-related, but I find it quite remarkable and wonder if Japanese lawmakers and courts would ever implement similar policies.

Sorry, the article is in German:

Gericht: Tuerkin muss nach 30 Jahren zum Integrationskurs - SPIEGEL ONLINE

In brief: a 60-year old Turkish lady, mother of six and married to a Turkish shop keeper, who has been living in Germany for the past thirty years without ever picking up the German language, was forced by an administrative court to attend a so-called 'integration course', where foreigners living in Germany are instructed in the language as well as manners and customes. She had sued the local immigration office that had compelled her to attend and the next instance, an administrative court, sustained the earlier decision. The illiterate Turkish lady will appeal the court decision, too

The court ruled that there was a significant public and social interest in long-term foreign residents being able to communicate "in at least a very basic fashion".

Your thoughts? Should foreigners be (legally) compelled to study the language of their host country?

 

[OoTmaster]

I think they should if they are planning on staying for an extended period of time or if they plan on living there. To both simplify your life in the country and so that people that need to talk to you can. For example, police officers that need to question you or if you have to call in an emergency.

 

[Davey]

I think they should be able to have a certain amount of Japanese conversation ability after a couple of years. It's hard to believe that some foreigners in Japan have been here for years (as in 10+) and still need a friend to help them with setting up a bank account.

In the case of the lady it is a bit different. Same as in Holland, those people has been asked to come in the 60's and 70's and the government did nothing to let them integrate and just thought they would leave after a couple of years. Now after so many years they are starting to say that she has to leave because she can't speak the language...

Of course the woman herself should have learned the language, but the government is definitely responsible as well for that as well as cultural things.

Back to the Japan part, a jlpt test doesn't mean anything regarding being able to make conversations etc. Set up a new test where people actually have basic interviews and the ablitily to read a minimum of for example 300 basic kanji. Of course this will be hard for those whom have just been in the country and for those with a temporary visa, but let's say after 5 years being in Japan you need to take the test.

Another point I want to make is that this should not only be regarding the language but also regarding Japanese customs.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Sounds like a waste of bureaucrats and tax money to me. Not everyone can be taught a foreign language -- or anything, for that matter. How do you make someone learn?

Anyone who can't speak, read, or write the local language is at a big disadvantage in that society, and if advantaging oneself isn't enough of an incentive, then what does the government hope to accomplish? Stick you in prison until you learn? Now there is a government that's either too big or has too little else to do.

 

[Macrobiotic]

I think Germany is doing the right thing here. I consider learning the language as necessary when you migrate somewhere. If you can't learn the language and the customs, stay in your home country.

 

[ewww]

That is very interesting problem, it took us into the old discussion about role of government in life of country: any democratic country, which declares freedom, has a government, which uses it's power to suppress any freedom.

German government forced a law, which contradict with elementary human right to speak on native language, just a funny fact. I will not (do not like) to do any speculations about the way how that law was brought to life. It could be coincidence of many different events. I just want to point on very mournfull side of that story: there are many countries with very 'original' understanding of democracy (Russia, China ... etc), which are following democracy flagships, like Germany, England or USA. I may only imagine how ugly and malicious will be similar laws developed here.

I'd say, it is a shame for Germany.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Japan won't do anything similar because I cannot foresee anyway for the politicians to make a ton of cash off the scheme. Plus it would require the belief that foreigners can actually integrate as well as the desire to integrate them and I cannot see enough Japanese old men (politicians) entertaining those concepts.

As for the idea, on the one hand, I don't mind the government requiring language and customs courses on the one hand, but, on the other hand you have the question of how to enforce the requirement. Threaten them with jail or deportation? See, that is where I think it gets ridiculous. There is not THAT MUCH public interest. So the only rational answer is a soft approach; you say its required and hope they appear, but you don't punish them in any way but harassing them with phone calls and letters if they fail to appear for classes.

Anyway, native born Germans who are mute cannot speak German either. Its good to keep in mind that not all Germans are functional either.

But there is one more thing, and its the stupidest thing of all I think. The woman is 60. You would be lucky to teach a 60 year old how to use the address book on a smart phone well enough that she could properly find the numbers of 5 people and call them regularly. A language? Forget it! Its not going to happen.

 

[Deibiddo]

So the only rational answer is a soft approach; you say its required and hope they appear, but you don't punish them in any way but harassing them with phone calls and letters if they fail to appear for classes.

Japan already has a soft approach: conduct official affairs verbally solely in Japanese. Of course, on official documents you will often find English as it is probably the most commonly spoken foreign language but that seems to be about it. That in itself is enough of a prompt to make people learn as they just cause problems for themselves otherwise.

 

[Mike Cash]

Japan already has a soft approach: conduct official affairs verbally solely in Japanese. Of course, on official documents you will often find English as it is probably the most commonly spoken foreign language but that seems to be about it. That in itself is enough of a prompt to make people learn as they just cause problems for themselves otherwise.

It has been my experience that it just causes problems for those around them, while they bumble blithely along in blissful ignorance.

 

[Deibiddo]

It has been my experience that it just causes problems for those around them, while they bumble blithely along in blissful ignorance.

That's probably more true, actually. I can't think why these people don't think it's a problem themselves.

 

[Mike Cash]

That's probably more true, actually. I can't think why these people don't think it's a problem themselves.

It is a part of what I have always referred to as the "conquistador mentality".

 

[Glenski]

Or path of least resistance.

 

[Mike Cash]

Or path of least resistance.

Or least effort.

 

[Malikon]

I can't imagine living somewhere for 10 years and not learning the language.

If you want to live in another country I'd assume you'd want to know the language too. People that can't speak the local language are generally (wrongly) considered to be mentally inferior.

Who would want that kind of stigma?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Absolutely, I would even go so far as to say that getting permanent residency/citizenship should require an exam.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Absolutely, I would even go so far as to say that getting permanent residency/citizenship should require an exam.

Chalk it up to my positive, always hopeful personality, but the first thing I think of when one speaks of permanent residents and naturalized citizens is not the dreg immigrant who is more like a leech than a human, but rather I think of good people fleeing poverty to have a better life for themselves and their children. Also what comes to mind are the Jews who fled Nazi occupied areas of Europe, many already quite elderly. And we have plenty of political refugees even today.

Being well aware of how critical it is for people to be educated while young in order to expect them to reach any sort of level of academics, and similarly being aware of how much age prohibits people from any sort of fresh and deep learning, I don't much like this idea of language proficiency requirements to become a citizen or permanent resident.

In fact, there are many aspects to this idea of having a bunch of exclusive nations that gives me anguish, and I would like to see the status of world citizen become available where people who have proven themselves to be decent enough can just pack up and go live whereever they please without interference from pencil pushers and immigration trolls.