Foreign workers integration

[tokapi]

nyouyaku doesn't see anyone as Jap.You do realize that Japanese people are not even "full-blooded" in any sense of the word, don't you ?

Japanese are mostly " full-blooded Mongoloids NOT Mongolians "

* Siberia ( Ainu origin )
* China's NE region ( proto-Tungusic origin )
* Korea peninsula ( ? )
* China's Yangtze River ( Wu-Yue origin )
* Pacific Islands ( Austronesian origin )

 

[nyouyaku]

nyouyaku,
You are an extremist and I hope you never get a government position in Japan.
Japan's declining birth rate is screaming for something to be done. Giving aid or jobs only to nikkei will not solve the problem.
1) there aren't enough.
2) they aren't all qualified to fit every job category
Wake up.

I am not an extremist. I don't know if you are aware, but there are many in Japan in high office who would agree with the comments made by me. A fellow like Shintaro Ishihara would probably take my proposal to be the better compromise.

 

[nyouyaku]

I think this pretty much says it all. nyouyaku doesn't see anyone as Japanese unless they are of some sort of Japanese/Asian heritage, and foreigners are not welcome in his mind. They are second-class, or at the very least second place. This is not a global way to think, and it certainly shirks Japan's international commitment towards internationalization. It definitely will not raise the population.
Citizenship is a part of many people's identity, but you don't even seem to include people who were born in Japan and are of another race. You seem to consider them below the Japanese people. Correct me if I am wrong.
nyouyaku,
You do realize that Japanese people are not even "full-blooded" in any sense of the word, don't you? They are of Mongolian, Ainu, and Korean stock, just to name a few. So much for racial purity.
As for using the "racist card", Bucko, how about this lovely quote from nyouyaku:
White is apparently the only "other" race he even perceives. I'll ignore the fact that "Japanese" is not a race and just let the fact stand by itself in all its blatant glory.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are wanting Japan to embrace multiculturalism or something? Do you expect Japan to naturalize more and more fully caucasian person to become Japanese? How would you feel if you saw a Japanese dressed up wearing a British redcoat guarding Buckingham palace for Queen Elizabeth II? You know what, there was actually one in Canada,
youtube.com/watch?v=UWIDrS2Xus0&feature=related
the link shows how Canadians are dressed up in those British redcoats. That is fine, but I also heard one British tourist say, "what is a Jap doing wearing our regimental colours!" I thought at first how narrow he was, but I think in one way he was right. And for a complete foreigner to become Japanese is no more fashionable and is to be taken aback just as the British do not delight seeing a Japanese Canadian born in Japan dress up in one of them Redcoats.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I went to Buckingham Palace a few months ago and saw a black guard marching up and down. Although this guard was probably decendent of an immigrant family from one of the Commonwealth countries.

 

[Glenski]

I am not an extremist.

You want nikkei to practically be forced to get Japanese citizenship, whether they request it or not. That's pretty extreme.

You want nikkei to get citizenship before any (other) foreigner. That's pretty extreme.

You think this is the only way to combat the declining birthrate. Again, extreme thinking.

I don't know if you are aware, but there are many in Japan in high office who would agree with the comments made by me.

And they would be called extremists by me, too.

A fellow like Shintaro Ishihara would probably take my proposal to be the better compromise.

Better than what? He is a very well-known racist, so of course he would agree with you. His public remarks and opinions have caused lots of grief in the community. This is a very poor example for you to use in this debate.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are wanting Japan to embrace multiculturalism or something?

I would like to see the country treat foreigners more fairly than they do. If that is what you call multicultural, ok. If it's not what you mean, please tell me so I can answer better.

Do you expect Japan to naturalize more and more fully caucasian person to become Japanese?

Why do you insist on using only the caucasians as your example? Tread lightly, or someone will think you are racist. Non-Japanese come in many colors and races, ok? I am not saying that Japan should naturalize more foreigners. I am saying that if Japan wants its work force to have people in it in the next few years, they need to raise the birthrate or allow more foreigners to work here. Plain and simple. The foreigners that work here don't have to be naturalized.

Your YouTube link mystifies me. What is it trying to prove? Is there supposed to be a person of Japanese origin in that military parade? There is no way for the viewer to know because the picture is so blurry. Besides, if someone truly did make the remark you say you heard, they are ignorant and obviously racist with the "Jap" expression. That whole thing is off-topic anyway, I think.

I think in one way he was right.

What way would that be? If that person of Japanese ancestry was actually born in Canada, he is Canadian and had just as much right to hold any job as any other Canadian.

And for a complete foreigner to become Japanese is no more fashionable and is to be taken aback

Huh? People don't naturalize to be fashionable.

just as the British do not delight seeing a Japanese Canadian born in Japan dress up in one of them Redcoats.

That's one person't opinion you may have heard in a fleeting moment in a crowd. It doesn't express the whole view of England. How do you know that person was born in Japan anyway?

Bucko wrote:

I went to Buckingham Palace a few months ago and saw a black guard marching up and down. Although this guard was probably decendent of an immigrant family from one of the Commonwealth countries.

I'm sure if you go back far enough in his bloodline, you will discover his true origins. Or mine, or yours.

 

[MadamePapillon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are wanting Japan to embrace multiculturalism or something? Do you expect Japan to naturalize more and more fully caucasian person to become Japanese?

A lot of people seem to be quite hung up at the fact that (OMG!) a white person wants to become a japanese citizen.
The way some people act you'd think this was some sort of a mortal offence for people who aren't of pure japanese blood to want to become citizens of Japan yet that sentiment doesn't seem to run both ways when it comes to japanese immigrating elsewhere. Hmm, wonder why that is.

This isn't a dog show and the purest breed isn't going to win a prize in the end. I had honestly thought that most of the modern world had moved past that sort of mindset, it's even more pathetic when you hear people who aren't even japanese fighting for Japans right to remain 'untainted' by foregin blood and influences.

I fail to see why some people are willing to get this worked up something so petty and bordering on racism. Would it truly be such a bad thing for Japan to accept foreigners or work towards a more open society for everybody because all this 'members only, racial purity' crap is way outdated and should have been left in the dust with the end of WW2, IMHO

 

[Glenski]

Well said, Madame Papillon.

nyouyaku,
You might want to read this article from the BBC about problems with integrating nikkeijin.
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan's trial run for migrant workers
It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

 

[centrajapan]

Japan is not founded on stolen property unlike US and Canada. Or Israel. Get back to Japan in 500 years.

It is easy for Americans who killed all the Indegenous people then they moralize about Japan while treating their people like lower than crap. Good riddance. Give 40 acres and a mule. And stop this crap about how US is better than Japan.It is not and you know it. And if you do not like it please go home.

You are guests. If you dont like it go home. It is due to Japanese hospitality that you are allowed to live in Japan. Do not forget that and do not shove your shallow Amerocentric values on others.

Quite a few countries in Europe is getting critical of how outsiders want to dicate their culture too. Japan is old just like Europe where the indegenous people live. Japan has history unlike USA, Candada or Israel.

Dont like it? Go home.

 

[Glenski]

Wow, centrajapan! That was the edited version!?

As for killing indigenous people.... pssst, Ainu. People who live in glass houses...

Who on this forum is trying to impose American values on Japan anyway?

Oh, and we (and all other foreigners) are constantly made well aware of the fact that we are only guests here, despite marrying Japanese, having kids here, paying taxes here, and working hard here to provide a service that locals can't deliver. You might want to consider how guests should be treated.

 

[Mycernius]

The Incas and Aztecs where killed by the Spanish, not Americans. The indigenous people on the Islands of the carribean where killed off by the Spanish and Portuguese. The native Americans south America where slowly killed off, once again, by the Spanish and Portuguese. The natives of North America where first oppressed by the French, British and Spanish, and continued in Canada after the American war of Indepedence by the British and French. Natives in Africa by various European powers.
Even if we go further we get Hokkaido seized at the expense from the Ainu.
Or shall I mention Lindisfarne, which was attacked and had the monks there slaughtered by Vikings? Weren't the Vikings by any chance of Scandinavian descent, which includes Norway? We can continue this with virtually every country in the world. No-one can claim that their countries are goody-goody.

Personally I am starting to get sick of your constant anti-american and anti-Israel attacks in any threads where you have a flimsy excuse to bring it up. Many people on the forum might have grudges against the US, but you appear to have an agenda of anti US posts. Now just shut up or go somewhere else to vent your obvious hatred towards the US and Israel

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Off topic a little:

No, I am not racist in that way. Japan is a country for Japanese people. United States and Canada is a country for the world. Everyone else is simply a guest.

Sawasdee krub:

Well said and I could not agree more

Off topic a little:

Good to see a Thai member on board.

If you are over my way, you can see some pics of a good Thai friend of mine from Chiang Mai visitng me in Kyoto here:95:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/388693410AWMljE

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/388726836dFgLBP

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/393233339DDzytz

And the rest of the hundreds of Thailand photos here. Love the country, people, food, culture, etc.
​

 

[The7thSamurai]

Japan is not founded on stolen property unlike US and Canada. Or Israel. Get back to Japan in 500 years.

Stolen property? The natives in America and Canada were defeated, therefore fair game. Just like how the Ainu were defeated in northern Japan. Just like how the Normans conquered England. Just like how the English conquered Australia.

 

[centrajapan]

The Vikings conquored UK. And the 2 cultures merged to become the Brittish culture where as the European settlers destoyed the Native American culture so there is quite a big difference here. The same with Israel and Australia. US is a country founded by immigrants. Japan isn't. So yet here is another huge difference.

Personally I am getting sick of the grudge these frustrated gaijins have on what not about Japan. In the end of the day. It is fairly eay. If they don't like Japan. Please go home. Its as simple as that.

Had it not been for the hospitality of Japan these frustrated gaijins would not have been living in Japan int he first place. In Japan you follow Japanese rules and customs because you are guests.

Japanese are the indegenous people of Japan. Americanas are not the indegenous people of USA. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. Therefore there are complete different dynamics. Japan never conquored the Indians and brought over slaves frm Africa to support their economy.

These things are good to keep in mind about why Japan is different than US or other countries.

Now these same frustrated gaijins look at themselves as the second coming of Jesus Christ. Martin Luther King of Japan. I have a dream! My dream is that we gaijins can shove our Anglo Saxon belief systems down Japan's throats because MY country is so much greater than Japan.

 

[Glenski]

Japanese are the indegenous people of Japan.

Wrong! Japan is an island. How did the original people get here? They migrated from Asia. Therefore, they are migrants.

Americanas are not the indegenous people of USA.

Some are, most aren't. Some of my ancestors came from Europe, but some of them were Native Americans. Ah, in the end, even they came from Asia.

Are there differences between Japanese and American history? Sure! Nobody is arguing that.

You are simply trying to argue that Japanese are better than white Americans, and you don't want them in Japan.

Tell me, why is it that you live in Norway instead of Japan? You seem to be defending Japan a lot, yet you don't live here. And, you seem to be worried about Anglo-Saxons taking over Japan for some unknown reason, yet Norway is the birthplace of Anglo-Saxons.

 

[centrajapan]

Anglo Saxons did not come from Scandinavia. Just as modern Americans do not come from USA.

You seem to criticise every little minor detail about Japan all the time why don't you move back to USA? You are not Japanese Japanese are indegenous people of Japan. Americans are not the indegenous people of Japan or USA.

I am implying due to the complete different dynamics in the two countries. One has a long history one has a very short history.

Japanese are regarded as the indegenous people of Japan while Americans either European or African are not regarded as the indegenous people of USA. The Native Americans are regarded as the indegenous people of USA.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. It seems as if you are implying that apples should be oranges. Because that is how it is in the great country called US of A.

 

[The7thSamurai]

centrajapan, saying Japan and the USA are like apples and oranges is very misleading. I noticed you completely ignored any reference to the Ainu people in your arguement.

Tell us, what do you make of northern-Japan? Since the Japanese people only migrated there in large numbers a little over 100 years ago does that make Hokkaido a "free for all" area, like you seem to be asserting the USA to be?

Japan and the USA, like all other countries on earth, were formed through migration and war, often defeating pre-existing people. From then, nations were built. What makes me uncomfortable about people saying that countries like Australia, Canada, USA etc always being multi-cultural "free-for-all" countries is that the nations as we know them today were built by a very culturally similar people (i.e. people from European countries - and Africans in the case of America).

I would stop the USA-bashing too. When Norway and the rest of Europe become Islamic states over the next 30-50 years and the native Europeans start resisting, you'll be calling on the USA for help, just like last time.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Wrong! Japan is an island. How did the original people get here? They migrated from Asia. Therefore, they are migrants.

This is a pretty weak case Glenski. We might be able to consider the Japanese in northern Japan to be migrants but certainly not the ones in the rest of the country. There comes a certain point when a population becomes the indigenous people, otherwise there would be no use for the word "indigenous"! It sounds like you are trying to justify your existence in Japan when you say that, something like, "well, the Japanese migrated here 3000 years ago, and I migrated here 6 years ago, so I'm basically as welcome as any Japanese since we're all either migrants or descendants of migrants!"

What you are forgetting Glenski, is that the people and the ancestors of the people you are living with today built the NATION of Japan (the customs, the laws, the infrastructure etc), including the northern regions. You've obviously done well to integrate into the country, but why would the Japanese want thousands upon thousands of "new Japanese" to coming into the country when many of them will not integrate well? Hell, by just looking at the situation in Europe can you understand that the Japanese might be a little nervous about letting the hoards in!

 

[Glenski]

Bucko,
You know as well as I do that today's Japanese people came from the mainland. That is all I'm saying about them being non-indigenous. That, and the fact that they are not a homogeneous group.

I'm certainly not saying I'm as welcome as any Japanese! Good grief no! I feel very fortunate to have a wife who came from here and whose family has accepted me. I have a nice job, too, but am I as accepted as any Japanese? Nope. I make no claims of that sort.

I agree with you that "the people and the ancestors of the people you are living with today built the NATION of Japan". Never said otherwise, so I am not forgetting anything there.

why would the Japanese want thousands upon thousands of "new Japanese" to coming into the country when many of them will not integrate well?

What "new Japanese" are you talking about? My only real point on this thread (integrating foreign workers) is that Japan's population is declining (a proven fact), and since the government and many companies don't seem to be doing anything (anything legal, anyway) about improving that situation with its own people, I agree with those who say that foreign workers should be accepted more than they currently are.

This is not to say that foreign workers have to become naturalized citizens. Not at all! Work visas (and other visas or PR) are suitable enough to keep people here.

centrajapan, however, seems to think that (correct me if I'm wrong) foreigners, especially Americans, are trash and shouldn't be allowed in Japan, and that any complainers should leave.

centrajapan wrote:

You seem to criticise every little minor detail about Japan all the time why don't you move back to USA?

I don't criticize Japan. I criticize you.

P.S. My error in saying Anglo-Saxons came from Norway. I was only trying to point out that caucasians are often referred to as Anglo-Saxons. Historically and geographically speaking, you are right, but only in that regard.

 

[MadamePapillon]

@centrajapan
You seem very confused about the reality of what a countrys like Canada is.

First, though we aren't as old as Japan, it's not like Canada simply popped out of the earth and is just beginning to form a society. The majority of immigrants were of the same European stock and they brought with them centuries of tradition and customs.

Second, I think it's been long enough so that any discussion about who is 'really' Canadian or American or whatever can be thrown out the window. My family has been in Canada for as long as anyone can remember and I have Native American blood on both sides of my family so it's quite insulting to hear someone say that people from immigrant countries like Canada don't really have a claim on their own country. I am Canadian, my parent were born here, my grandparents were born here, my great-grand parents ect...

Japanese are the indegenous people of Japan. Americanas are not the indegenous people of USA. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. Therefore there are complete different dynamics. Japan never conquored the Indians and brought over slaves frm Africa to support their economy.
These things are good to keep in mind about why Japan is different than US or other countries.

So, in your logic, because the original Americans were immigrants...about 300 odd years ago and have a history of conquering and slavery that this somehow makes them not as good as Japan.
Leaving aside the fact that the japanese themselves have done some less than righteous things during their own history, what about them exactly do you think makes them ever so much better and entitled than the average N. American.
Tell me what makes it so that the Japanese can immigrate to Canada by the thousands and have no problems but one white Canadian cannot do the same without being singled out, discouraged and made to feel unwelcome.
Where is the logic in that?

 

[nyouyaku]

Japan is not founded on stolen property unlike US and Canada. Or Israel. Get back to Japan in 500 years.
It is easy for Americans who killed all the Indegenous people then they moralize about Japan while treating their people like lower than crap. Good riddance. Give 40 acres and a mule. And stop this crap about how US is better than Japan.It is not and you know it. And if you do not like it please go home.
You are guests. If you dont like it go home. It is due to Japanese hospitality that you are allowed to live in Japan. Do not forget that and do not shove your shallow Amerocentric values on others.
Quite a few countries in Europe is getting critical of how outsiders want to dicate their culture too. Japan is old just like Europe where the indegenous people live. Japan has history unlike USA, Candada or Israel.
Dont like it? Go home.

Thank you very much. I am glad that you understand. There are some delusional people like Madame Pappillion who do not understand this.

I also would like to say this to be fair. I would be just as critical seeing a Japanese Canadian fellow dressed up in British redcoat in Ottawa, Canada, should he do that at Buckingham palace in UK. That is British historical place, and I would want to see only an Englishmen, Scotsman, or a Welshman standing as a guard. Likewise, I do not take delight if that same Englishman were to push his way into becoming Japanese. Becoming Japanese is not like becoming American, Canadian, Australian or Kiwi. It is an old country, and it might be a debatable wether or not the Zainichi Koreans and Chinese should be allowed fully in the fold, but some irrelevant Englishman or American becoming Japanese is completely nonsense.

By the way, many Japanese are happy living as foreigners (gaikokujin) in America, UK, without going forth for full citizenship.
Now I would be upset if I saw that in Buckingham palace.

 

[MadamePapillon]

@ Nyouyaku

Who said anything about wanting to become Japanese. Most people are perfectly happy with their own nationality and culture that they have no desire to change. However, there are people who choose to live in a country like Japan or have to work there for an extended period, they have jobs and pay taxes and are good honest people, so how is it so offensive that they want to have the same rights and opportunitys as everyone else in that country?

And I can honestly say that I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended seeing a Japanese person dressed in a Redcoat, or wearing a kilt and playing the bagpipes, or even carving a bloody totem pole. All that shows me is that they like our culture and want to be a part of it, so how is that offensive? If someone is willing to make an effort to learn our ways and traditions than who am I to say "no, you're not one of us so stop trying"? I fail to see why you would be upset by that when many of the locals have no problem with it.

...Oh, and that little "go home to Canada" PM. Sorry to say that I never left, don't know where you got that idea from

 

[nyouyaku]

Sawasdee krub:

Well said and I could not agree more

Off topic a little:

Good to see a Thai member on board.

If you are over my way, you can see some pics of a good Thai friend of mine from Chiang Mai visitng me in Kyoto here:95:

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/388693410AWMljE

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/388726836dFgLBP

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/393233339DDzytz

And the rest of the hundreds of Thailand photos here. Love the country, people, food, culture, etc.
​

Sawasdee Krub. How did you know I am Thai? Were you sitting next to me in an internet cafe?

 

[nyouyaku]

@ Nyouyaku
Who said anything about wanting to become Japanese. Most people are perfectly happy with their own nationality and culture that they have no desire to change. However, there are people who choose to live in a country like Japan or have to work there for an extended period, they have jobs and pay taxes and are good honest people, so how is it so offensive that they want to have the same rights and opportunitys as everyone else in that country?
And I can honestly say that I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended seeing a Japanese person dressed in a Redcoat, or wearing a kilt and playing the bagpipes, or even carving a bloody totem pole. All that shows me is that they like our culture and want to be a part of it, so how is that offensive? If someone is willing to make an effort to learn our ways and traditions than who am I to say "no, you're not one of us so stop trying"? I fail to see why you would be upset by that when many of the locals have no problem with it.
...Oh, and that little "go home to Canada" PM. Sorry to say that I never left, don't know where you got that idea from

Look, I see lots of farang men in my country of Thailand taking our ladies away from Thai men, polluting them. I would hate to see Japan get dominated by foreigners. I admire how Japan tries to protect itself. We too have pride in never been officially a colony, but economically, it is another matter. Farangs make us feel second class. They buy more rights, they bribe out of trouble, and they get the right of way, while the rest of us in almost every asian country as locals have to contend with farang bs. Now, Japan I truly admire having the economic strength to not being dwarfed by many westerners, and is the only country that can let you know who is boss even in Asia when you set foot in Japan. I am delighted knowing that for once, the white man doesn't get his way acting like ignorant aristocratic children. That goes for the many backpackers on Kaosan Road.

I am sorry to be a bit blunt, but it is really a change of turning the table around when it comes to many of you having to go to Tokyo's Ginza or Roppongi being amazed by the high prices. Even the English with their mighty pound sterling are often buckled down and become humble guests not being able to act like a bunch of smart *** farangs as you do in Thailand throwing 100 bhat here and there as if it were peanuts.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Sawasdee Krub. How did you know I am Thai? Were you sitting next to me in an internet cafe?

I saw the flag on ya side piece.

Look, I see lots of farang men in my country of Thailand taking our ladies away from Thai men, polluting them. I would hate to see Japan get dominated by foreigners. I admire how Japan tries to protect itself.
.

I find that a little one sided.

I have many Thai friends from Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Chonburri.

Most of them tend to look down on girls that work in the bars and treat the poorer country people as fourth class citizens.

I do also however find those western sex tourist in Thailand rather disgusting, and it did tarnish Thailand's image..

The fact is, you dont' really see it unless you look for it..

It'salso in most countries so then again, not sure why it applies so much to Thailand..

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Anglo Saxons did not come from Scandinavia. Just as modern Americans do not come from USA.

You seem to criticise every little minor detail about Japan all the time why don't you move back to USA? You are not Japanese Japanese are indegenous people of Japan. Americans are not the indegenous people of Japan or USA.

I am implying due to the complete different dynamics in the two countries. One has a long history one has a very short history.

Japanese are regarded as the indegenous people of Japan while Americans either European or African are not regarded as the indegenous people of USA. The Native Americans are regarded as the indegenous people of USA.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. It seems as if you are implying that apples should be oranges. Because that is how it is in the great country called US of A.

Not sure of the exact history but I believe the Ainu people are the real Japanese, and before them, someone else.

Let's face it, Japan was once a barbaric nation that wished for Asia to be one Japan..

They committed HUGE attrocities to prove it..