For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

Taiko666 said:

While what you say may be technically correct, it still doesn't mean that life is stable in Japan.

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My answer was not about stability. It was about immigration rules.

If the job goes, the visa will eventually go unless you're lucky / qualified enough to find a job same field.

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What is "lucky"? You quit and you'd better have a job lined up first. You get fired, and you still have the rest of your visa length to find work.

I've considered what would happen if I lost my job in Japan.
1) I'd be obligated to inform the immigration folks at MOJ, but I'm not sure what their next move would be. Perhaps you could enlighten me Glenski?

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You are not obligated to tell them about losing your job.

2) I'd be unable to engage in any employment except IT.

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Depends on the type of work visa you have.

3) I'd face the well-understood problem of being a foreigner looking for a job in Japan. And since my official Japanese language level is only JLPT3, there'd be absolutely no chance of finding a job in a Japanese company.

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Not true. Difficult, yes, but not zero chance.

So in effect, the sequence of events would be: lose job, lose visa, leave Japan. In contrast, if I were a Japanese citizen the sequence would be: lose job, take social security, find a job in any field at my leisure (finances permitting.)

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You can collect unemployment for 3 months in Japan. Why are you being so doom and gloom here?

Re: PR status and losing it by staying away for >3 years

I think you're being a little obtuse here. We all know that a re-entry permit is valid for a number of years. But it's perfectly possible for an absent-minded person who's got used to the 'security' of PR to leave the country a few days/weeks before the their RP expires, and then find themselves bumped down to 'vistor' status when they next present themselves at Immigration.

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Sure, but whose fault is that? If PR is so important to someone, keep on top of things. Besides, you can also file for an extension. Did you know that?

Bottom line, your PR visa is not 'permanent' and can be revoked.

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Only if you are that absent minded. I think having a 3-year leeway on a reentry permit is pretty obliging and neighborly of Japan.

Glenski, all I'm saying is that ALL foreigners in Japan have to rely on their visa status, whether that's working, PR, spouse or whatever. That visa status is either transient or vulnerable. And that negatively impacts stability.

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I'm not going to disagree that visa status is a permanent thing here. Sure, we are all vulnerable, but why do you choose to look at it so harshly? Even if you get a divorce, your spouse visa remains active until it expires. Pretty flexible if you ask me. Lose your job, and your work visa is still valid. Be a "permanent" resident, yet have the flexibility to be gone from for 3 years. What more do you want from a visa system? (Not to pick nits, but PR is not a visa status.)

Whatever market you are in, you run a risk of losing your job. That involves people who depend on visas or not.

Well put Glenski. Some people who live here haven't cottoned on to that yet. You can be as native as you want to be, but if you have a PHD and no job, then you gotta look for some way to bring money in to the house.

If it's easier for foreigners to live in Japan, why would they complain so much?
It's always racism this and racism that.

Somehow it gives me the feeling that it's ten time easier to live in Japan if you're Japanese.

It's always racism this and racism that.

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I have often thought that "it takes one to know one"............ in regards to some people who complain about racism here in Japan.

From what I've heard, I think it would be way harder for a foreigner to live in Japan. I mean, to get a job there, I'm going to have to compete with people who are fluent in Japanese and go to universities whose prestige is actually comparable (apparently, all foreign universities are not on the banzuke of universities, so any Japanese university gets priority). Meanwhile, I'm only around 2-kyuu level and don't go to any university in Japan. Even though I am in the University of Washington CS department funded by Bill Gates himself, any native gets priority over me...

But then again, I would probably appreciate living in Japan much more than your average native.

But then again, I would probably appreciate living in Japan much more than your average native.

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You might, but you'll never get the locals there to admit it!

I mean, to get a job there, I'm going to have to compete with people who are fluent in Japanese and go to universities whose prestige is actually comparable (apparently, all foreign universities are not on the banzuke of universities, so any Japanese university gets priority).

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But many industries that foreigners get into here don't require Japanese fluency (IT and teaching to name the popular two). The language skills don't hurt, but they are not necessarily the main skill needed. Many people who came here to work in the financial industry don't have Japanese skills as they supervise the locals who do.

gaijinalways said:

But many industries that foreigners get into here don't require Japanese fluency (IT and teaching to name the popular two). The language skills don't hurt, but they are not necessarily the main skill needed. Many people who came here to work in the financial industry don't have Japanese skills as they supervise the locals who do.

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The big thing I'm worried about (and have had several people tell me will be the bane of me finding a job) is that I have no work experience in my field. You'd think it would be an implication that a college student won't have much work experience in their field (if any at all), but it doesn't seem to be. To get the work experience, I need to find a job in my field. And why would they hire some weirdo from overseas? Seems really catch-22 to me.

(Sorry to those who are sick of me worrying about my potential for being hired, but thinking about this sometimes causes me to have panic attacks...)

(Sorry to those who are sick of me worrying about my potential for being hired, but thinking about this sometimes causes me to have panic attacks...)

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If you are having panic attacks about this, what are you going to do when people in your job start talking behind your back in Japanese and you think they are talking about you. The best thing you can do for yourself is prepare yourself as best as you can, and that includes learning enough of the language to help you ease some of your concerns.

If you have panic attacks about this, you might want to take some time and seriously think about if this is the right time in your life to be making a move or trying to move here to Japan.

Depending on the individual "You aint seen nothin yet"

I hope you have medication for your "panic", and I dont mean that jokingly either.

You have culture shock waiting in the wings.

KirinMan said:

If you are having panic attacks about this, what are you going to do when people in your job start talking behind your back in Japanese and you think they are talking about you. The best thing you can do for yourself is prepare yourself as best as you can, and that includes learning enough of the language to help you ease some of your concerns.
If you have panic attacks about this, you might want to take some time and seriously think about if this is the right time in your life to be making a move or trying to move here to Japan.
Depending on the individual "You aint seen nothin yet"
I hope you have medication for your "panic", and I dont mean that jokingly either.
You have culture shock waiting in the wings.

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It's not people talking behind my back that's causing me to worry. It's not that I might have culture shock (I've actually been to Japan on vacation). It's not even doing the job itself. But it's how to go about finding the job that's causing my panic attacks. Whether I have the qualifications needed to get a job in Japan.

tada said:

It's not people talking behind my back that's causing me to worry. It's not that I might have culture shock (I've actually been to Japan on vacation). It's not even doing the job itself. But it's how to go about finding the job that's causing my panic attacks. Whether I have the qualifications needed to get a job in Japan.

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Well, have you researched the numerous, ok few sites on the internet related to foreigners looking for jobs in Japan?

If you have then you should know whether or not you have the qualifications, that should be the easy part I would think.

However the biggest plus is language abilities I would think. Having the capability to not only speak the language but understand what people are saying to you would, I think, only enhance any other qualifications you already have.

Plus try to remember that many if not most Japanese companies place quite a bit of importance on "certificates" or "proof" of attaining a level of accomplishment or achievement in education. Meaning just "saying" you know something and "proving it" with some type of paper certificate carries more weight, particularly in the interview process when they look at your resume and decide whether or not to invite you to meet with them face to face.

In some cases it doesnt matter what you know, but where you learned it that maters too.

I'm really mixed on whether or not I will have the qualifications. I will have a Bachelor's in Computer Science next year, and am taking JLPT 2-kyuu in December, so I should be fine on those areas. and have certificates to prove them. However, as far as work experience, I have only had a part-time office assistant job; no official work in my field yet. So it's not really black or white whether I have the qualifications.

I suppose I could just get the work experience in the US, but I'd be going through motions and waiting for the economy to implode.

This ties back into the topic: Natives aren't expected to have work experience in their jobs, just degrees. Foreigners are expected to have degrees and years of work experience (regardless of age; I'm 21 years old and in college. I think it would be common sense I haven't had much work experience) for the same jobs from what I have read and researched on those sites. I think it's easy to see who has it easier in this respect.

tada said:

This ties back into the topic: Natives aren't expected to have work experience in their jobs, just degrees. Foreigners are expected to have degrees and years of work experience (regardless of age; I'm 21 years old and in college. I think it would be common sense I haven't had much work experience) for the same jobs from what I have read and researched on those sites. I think it's easy to see who has it easier in this respect.

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Japanese are hired differently than most foreigners. As a foreign hire, for the most part, you would be hired for your expertise.

The expectation also might be that you would not be a permanent employee either, and compensation would be different as well.

Damn, all I could show for experience is a "portfolio" of programs I've written. Either way, that shows it's easier for natives to live there. Not only do you have to be better, you have to be better by a hell of a margin.

I guess if I can't get a job, I can always jump from Kiyomizu-dera.

tada said:

Damn, all I could show for experience is a "portfolio" of programs I've written. Either way, that shows it's easier for natives to live there. Not only do you have to be better, you have to be better by a hell of a margin.

I guess if I can't get a job, I can always jump from Kiyomizu-dera.

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Hold one here....I am not saying that you can not get a job but you might want to consider other options as well.

For example one big thing would be to get your foot in the door here in Japan, and that may mean doing something other than what you are learning about in University.

Consider the JET option and or working for an eikaiwa, it pays the bills while you are here and also gets you here in country where the job search would probably be easier than from overseas.

If you are set on wanting to work here keep all of your options open to you would seem to be prudent advice at this time.

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere), but I'd be willing to work for an eikaiwa or something outside my field if it came down to that. Still, I'd get no experience in my field, and it would slowly be atrophying...

tada said:

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere), but I'd be willing to work for an eikaiwa or something outside my field if it came down to that. Still, I'd get no experience in my field, and it would slowly be atrophying...

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You are making assumptions based on only a few people's experiences. There are literally thousands of people who have been on JET and sure there is a chance you could get sent to bum....you know what...middle of nowhere.

Remember this though, that nowhere though is "here" in Japan not where you are at now.

If you are willing to work at an eikaiwa then I have a bit of pity for you. JETS pay is by far better and the working conditions are better than just about any eikaiwa as well. Plus you wouldnt have to work nights, weekends and holidays either on JET. But hey, it's your choice!

tada said:

I have no work experience in my field. You'd think it would be an implication that a college student won't have much work experience in their field (if any at all), but it doesn't seem to be. To get the work experience, I need to find a job in my field. And why would they hire some weirdo from overseas? Seems really catch-22 to me.

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You're going to run into this even back home. However, in another country, it is more strict usually. The simple fact is, in Japan you find an employer who feels your credentials are acceptable, and who sponsors a visa. Those credentials can be the right degree, work experience, plus language ability.

Re: I suppose I could just get the work experience in the US, but I'd be going through motions and waiting for the economy to implode.
You seem to put down getting any work in the USA to make your resume look better. Don't.

gaijinalways mentioned IT as a field where Japanese skills are not required. True in some cases (many India natives get hired here, but who really hires them?), but not in all. VERY entry level jobs are going to be competitive wherever you go in the world, so get what it takes. Be patient. You are going to need patience in Japan almost as much as language skills.

KirinMan said:

Japanese are hired differently than most foreigners. As a foreign hire, for the most part, you would be hired for your expertise.

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True.

KirinMan said:

The expectation also might be that you would not be a permanent employee either, and compensation would be different as well.

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By law you are supposed to get the same. This may look different on the surface (like how much you make per month and what your bonus is), but the total annual salary and all benefits are supposed to be the same by law.

KirinMan said:

I am not saying that you can not get a job but you might want to consider other options as well.

For example one big thing would be to get your foot in the door here in Japan, and that may mean doing something other than what you are learning about in University.

Consider the JET option and or working for an eikaiwa, it pays the bills while you are here and also gets you here in country where the job search would probably be easier than from overseas.

If you are set on wanting to work here keep all of your options open to you would seem to be prudent advice at this time.

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EXCELLENT advice!

tada said:

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...

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But you said you won't even have a degree until next year. Perhaps you can do some networking and sniffing around in Sept this year, but don't expect to get a job offer, or one that will hold water, until after you get the degree (for the work visa).

tada said:

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere)

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To paraphrase KirinMan, stop listening to ONE FRIEND. Even the JET programme's motto is Every Situation Is Different.

Not everyone has a horrible experience teaching English. In fact, with JET (despite some disadvantages), here are the positive points:
1. Paid airfare (few other teaching opportunities offer this. DARNED few!)

2. Sane hours. Monday to Friday, 9 to 4ish. With eikaiwa, you work noonish to 9pm and THEN go home (maybe an hour commute or more), and you can work any of the 7 days of the week.

3. You are the ALT, not the solo teacher. (Discipline and most lesson planning will be the JTE's job, not yours. Lots of JET ALTs complain about the down time on the job, so all they do is surf the net. That's stupid and a waste of time. DON'T do that. USE your time wisely. The sensible hours will give you a chance to study at night, whether for Japanese language, IT, or even PT work on the sly.)

4. You are in the middle of freaking nowhere. Yup. This is POSITIVE. Where else do you think you are going to be able to hone your Japanese skills better? Few country folks speak English, so you will be FORCED to learn more Japanese faster. Think out of the box. Besides, "nowhere" is often just an hour or two from SOMEwhere (bigger city).

I think I'm going to go the eikaiwa route. I really am against working in a rural area, since I don't like them regardless of which country. In Japan, rural areas also come with more anti-gaijin sentiment than urban areas. Not good. Sure, there's the hidden benefits of learning the language faster, but that's not the only factor. Any Japanese immersion is good.

I'm also a workaholic myself, because working takes my mind off things like this. The hours probably won't be any shock to me; I'm a CS major (though all my summer classes are non-CS, so a lot more free time). That means coming to campus at all days of the week at all hours to work on stuff. I don't think you could name a day of the week and time of day I haven't been in the labs. Whether it's 11pm on a Friday night, or hours before the sun comes up (if it does... it tends to be invisible most of the year in Seattle), I've probably been in the labs multiple times at that time/day.

It also sounds a lot more safe than just taking a stab in the dark at getting a job in my field...

edit> Hmm, does this CFN | バイリンガルのための就職・転職サイト look good for a person in my position? I might try this first (the LA one, which will be after I get back to the States) and then fall back on eikaiwa if I can't find anything.

tada said:

In Japan, rural areas also come with more anti-gaijin sentiment than urban areas. Not good.

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What makes you think that? I don't think that is true.....

I hope you will get to see the rural areas, too, when you come visit in September.

ASHIKAGA said:

What makes you think that? I don't think that is true.....
I hope you will get to see the rural areas, too, when you come visit in September.

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ﾂ人ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙個青ｫﾅ?i窶堙娯?｢ﾃ遺?堙俄?堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。窶ｰﾂｽﾂ坂?倪?堙??堙?窶彡ﾅｽﾃ俄?堙個人窶堋ｪ窶徭窶堙個人窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶堙ｦ窶堋ｻﾅｽﾃ塚?ｵ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

窶禿ｳﾂ：Because of human nature I think of that. In any country it seems like rural people differentiate between outsiders more than city people.

(Sorry, I had an uncanny urge to practice.)

tada said:

ﾂ人ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙個青ｫﾅ?i窶堙娯?｢ﾃ遺?堙俄?堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。窶ｰﾂｽﾂ坂?倪?堙??堙?窶彡ﾅｽﾃ俄?堙個人窶堋ｪ窶徭窶堙個人窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶堙ｦ窶堋ｻﾅｽﾃ塚?ｵ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
窶禿ｳﾂ：Because of human nature I think of that. In any country it seems like rural people differentiate between outsiders more than city people.
(Sorry, I had an uncanny urge to practice.)

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Really? I dont know about that. In the cities chances are that you would be just one in a crowd of many depending on the location of course and in the countryside you could be seen and treated like a celebrity depending alot upon your attitude and willingness or not to learn and adapt.

Sure rural people probably differentiate between us and them, however if you were an ALT in a country school you would, depending again upon how YOU make it have a great time, make tons of friends, and learn to speak the language with more fluency than in a city.

The point is you seem, to me at least, to be tossing aside the idea of living in "inaka". There is good and bad anywhere, but I would bet a lot of money that in "inaka" there would be more people around to support and help you than in a city.

Again it all depends on you.

If you read my whole post, I also just don't like rural areas. Especially in Japan, the energy and fun of the cities is what I really love.

Meeting people isn't high on my list of priorities either.

Man, being a foreigner that loves Japan is torture. Sometimes I just want to run my head into a wall in hopes that I will reroll a brain with more plausible ambitions.

Good to know, tada...good to know... I still hope you will have a great time here.

Ooookay! Let us get back to the topic of "For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?"!

スレを脱線したことすみません。
(Sorry I steered the thread off topic)

I'd love to continue the discussion though. Perhaps in a new thread. Which forum, though?