Anybody still taking this guy seriously?
Why would you include the unemployed in a survey of the employed?
If you pull out the non-working Japanese, then you have to pull out the non-working non-Japanese. Then you have to adjust for population size differences.
The likely result is that in Japan, the average Japanese person is still making more than the average non-Japanese person.
I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories
Anybody still taking this guy seriously?
One, because they could be employed, but they choose not to be. Two, no, because foreigners tend not to move here to live off of their parents, so the average Japanese income in that case would be much lower.
In my opinion, foreigners are generally not.
I'm sure the survey did not include unemployed people. Wouldn't make sense.If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).
I think it's pretty clear that foreigners don't get put in the horribly overworked situations that cause Japanese people to kill themselves or to be overworked literally to death.They don't get placed in them or they don't allow themselves to be placed in those situations? Subtle difference, but one that says a lot about the influence of free will and a sometime rejection of an essence of group dynamics that is often harmful to individuals.
That's a clarification needed up front. In fact, how many friends have you ever had in your life who fit the above description? I would hazard a guess that very few people could say more than a handful of such friends. So, I have to go back to my perspective of just saying friends are friends. If you want to qualify your description differently, we can talk more.So as I said, are they really friends, someone you can count on when the chips are down?
But most of life is beyond our control! The Japanese just seem to accept it more than a lot of foreign cultures do. Being used to that is what I meant by accepting it and not feeling the stress so much. Use any example you want. A foreigner is more likely to be pissed off at having to wait at a taxi station after midnight than a Japanese is. Foreigners b!tch more about any governmental red tape they encounter.But I would claim in a way it does harm them, as it perpetuates the idea in some cases that things are beyond our control, when sometimes they obviously are not. There is a big difference between can't be bothered because I see no relation to you and/or no benefit in doing something and doing something that will help both parties (the doer and the receiver), but may irritate some others.
I don't think either of us can state with certainty whether the Japanese over-rationalize anything here. For another thing, you know as well as I that their rationality is often different than ours.I think for many Japanese they feel truly obligated, and they often feel weighed down by these obligations to such an extent that they over-rationalize them.
Other than karoshi, you get the same social drop outs and people who can't deal with society's obligations back home.Hence you get karoshi, and social drop outs, people who can't deal with the many obligations thrust on them by Japanese society.
I don't see how you can say that there is no gray area here. I would most definitely say so! Don't confuse the issue with the "Charisma man" scenario, when the issue is the negative side of discrimination, whether a foreigner feels it more strongly than a Japanese. The foreigner loses out hands down, whether or not he/she falls into the "Charisma man" category.Those two extremes of treatment are what Charisma man and the foreign celebrity encompass (on the great end) and what the overt rejection of applications for housing, etc represent on the other end. I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories, though I think Japan sometimes does better than when I was living with the Chinese in Hong Kong.
I see the above as one of your main thoughts in starting this whole thread. The 10 or so clarified points we have dealt with. But, I feel you are going to need to clarify the above even more, perhaps to the extent that you list other issues. Consistent in what?This would be one area where Japanese have it easier, they generally are treated by other Japanese in a more consistent fashion. In my opinion, foreigners are generally not.
I'm sure the survey did not include unemployed people. Wouldn't make sense.
I see the above as one of your main thoughts in starting this whole thread. The 10 or so clarified points we have dealt with. But, I feel you are going to need to clarify the above even more, perhaps to the extent that you list other issues. Consistent in what?
But most of life is beyond our control! The Japanese just seem to accept it more than a lot of foreign cultures do. Being used to that is what I meant by accepting it and not feeling the stress so much. Use any example you want. A foreigner is more likely to be pissed off at having to wait at a taxi station after midnight than a Japanese is. Foreigners b!tch more about any governmental red tape they encounter.
I don't think either of us can state with certainty whether the Japanese over-rationalize anything here. For another thing, you know as well as I that their rationality is often different than ours.
Other than karoshi, you get the same social drop outs and people who can't deal with society's obligations back home.
I really don't see any of the above as relevant. There are strange people everywhere. Seems that what you are describing above is either a case where a foreigner knowingly plays his gaijin card in hopes that the shy Japanese won't say anything, or he is just plain weird and does/doesn't consciously think about what the Japanese think. (Case in point: a foreigner who parades around in full kimono dress daily. A guy on another forum said he does that.)So, who are these people?
No, they're not all sex fiends, some of them just play the game of 'henna gaijin' very well.
Do they make life easier for the rest of us?
Well, maybe not, though I suppose you might seem fairly normal to some people if you don't copy the things that they do. Sometimes this leads to behaviour that would be slammed in most other places but is acceptable here, as in well he/she is a 'henna gaijin', so it's okay.
That's not superstitious.I think you're thinking more of people who are superstitious (which a lot of Japanese are) and thinking that they can't change a situation (and mostly they are right because they believe they can't because of all their social obligations) when they really can.
Have I ever met a social dropout? Gee, kinda hard to do if he has dropped out of society! Have I met some weird people? Yes, in every country I've visited! Have I met uni students who take 8 years to graduate? No, in no country where I've visited or lived, but I've known some who take an extra year or 2.Have you met many of them back home? I can only think of a few, here I seem to meet some regularly every week. I don't hardly remember anyone taking 8 years to graduate from uni, yet here I have classes chock full of such characters.
Bad time for you or for foreigners in Japan? To survive, one has to learn to adapt, shrug off the things beyond one's control (when possible and necessary), and move on with life. It's a basic tenet for living anywhere, but in a foreign land, even the little problems can be augmented by the isolation of living away from one's homeland and the differences in language and customs. THERE'S your major source of stress.Maybe I just came to Japan at a bad time. Should have been here in the bubble period I suppose....
Sorry, I didn't make the survey, I just report it. You gotta compare apples and apples. Compare all foreigners of legal working age with all Japanese of the same age, whether they have jobs or not. I can't do that. Let's just report those who do work.
Again, there's that indeterminant word "some" again. Yes, your definition fits a lot of eikaiwa instructors and ALTs. Foreigners hold other jobs here, too.
I really don't see any of the above as relevant. There are strange people everywhere. Seems that what you are describing above is either a case where a foreigner knowingly plays his gaijin card in hopes that the shy Japanese won't say anything, or he is just plain weird and does/doesn't consciously think about what the Japanese think. (Case in point: a foreigner who parades around in full kimono dress daily. A guy on another forum said he does that.)
gaijinalways posted,
I've just found that sometimes the same person will attempt to charm my socks off, where as in other situations I am suddenly Mr. Evil. In other words, not much consistency. Hey, maybe it's my experience, but I have seen it echoed by others. It is also a given often that Japanese people you relate to will often relate differently to you when you're alone than when you're with other Japanese. Maybe group personality influence?
Glenski posted
My initial reactions to the above are:
1)yes, personality influence (and one that could equally be shown in any country)
2) the above is n=1 (only your experience)
gaijinalways posted
I would say that Japanese worry about a lot more things than I would ever consider worrying about. And that brings a higher stress level, something born out by working oneself to death and a very high suicide rate in a developed country.
Glenski posted
The same could be said in reverse. Different cultures have different values, thus different reasons to be stressed. You can't prove Japanese worry about more things than foreigners.
Re: social misfits and dropouts
gaijinalways posted
Of course, but I don't think it's the same percentage. Remember here it's more likely that your parents would let you stay in your bedroom for 4 years at age 30 and not think it's unusual (nor often consider having you get counseling or actually go out and try and get a JOB).
Glenski posted
Again, I don't have stats on this. I agree that Japan has probably more people living at home than my homeland, but what does this prove anyway? Most of your points on this topic have easily been refuted or put into question, so it all boils down to opinion based on one's experiences (unless either of us pulls out some social survey data).
Have I ever met a social dropout? Gee, kinda hard to do if he has dropped out of society! Have I met some weird people? Yes, in every country I've visited! Have I met uni students who take 8 years to graduate? No, in no country where I've visited or lived, but I've known some who take an extra year or 2.
gaijinalways posted
No, I'm talking about things that are [under control]. I know the difference between things I can't control and ones I can.
Glenski posted
Give me an example of each.
I think you're thinking more of people who are superstitious (which a lot of Japanese are) and thinking that they can't change a situation (and mostly they are right because they believe they can't because of all their social obligations) when they really can.
That's not superstitious.
Maybe I just came to Japan at a bad time. Should have been here in the bubble period I suppose....
Bad time for you or for foreigners in Japan? To survive, one has to learn to adapt, shrug off the things beyond one's control (when possible and necessary), and move on with life. It's a basic tenet for living anywhere, but in a foreign land, even the little problems can be augmented by the isolation of living away from one's homeland and the differences in language and customs. THERE'S your major source of stress.
Why is it that you never have anything intelligent to say?Boring teacher's talk !
Btw. I have PR-status too ! But never been teacher !
One thing, though, you shouldn't try to compare average gaijin and average Japanese. I don't think such people don't exist. You'll have to compare yourself with an equivalent counterpart for a good comparison.
But my suggestion is don't compare...neither Japanese or gaijin are living an easy life here. It's not a laid back country-- never was.
In my case, I find life much more rich and interesting than at back home...but that's because of my personal history and beliefs...and I'm willing to put up with the sometimes not inconsiderable frustrations.
Everything I read so far that says non-Japanese have it easier is very biased.
All true, and since I was the one who brought it up, I just wanted to say so. I was indeed thinking of the annual salary, and if I remember correctly the news report I saw/read talked only of annual, too. I just divided by 12 to keep the conversation going here.One thing bugged me from an earlier post about average incomes. I think someone said that the average income for a non-Japanese was about ﾂ??20,000 per month. Monthly income comparisons are useless, you have to go on a yearly salary comparrisons, due to the fact that most Japanese companies have the bonus system in place and this can vary greatly, so much so that half a persons salary can be in the form of a bonus which would make their monthly income a lot lower. I will say say a lot ,not all non-Japanese don't have bonus systems, especially factory workers and Eikaiwa teachers.
Biased in the way that a lot of people have not yet had the time to settle down and realise that this is where you are going to live for the rest of your life. Like I said earlier, for the short term there may be some advantages to being foreign, but long term is a complete different story.Biased in what way? I've posted a lot of things I have noted and remembered opinions from other people that have given to me. Of course you have to remember, the ones (these are the foreigners I am speaking about) that really think Japan sucks usually leave, so I don't worry about them.
And what happened to marsman, the one who 'demoted' this thread because it had no cultural content?
Untrue. Absolutely untrue. Your visa is yours until it expires, even if you lose your job.Life for a foreigner in Japan is anything but stable. Lose your job = lose your visa
How careful does one have to be to be gone for a few years?Even PRs have be careful. Leave Japan for a holiday and fail to return by the time you re-entry permit expires? You ain't a PR no more...
Untrue. Absolutely untrue. Your visa is yours until it expires, even if you lose your job.
How careful does one have to be to be gone for a few years?
When all is take into account, I believe that it is easier for the foreigner to live in Japan, both the long-term and the short-term, as foreigners ARE NOT expected to know the language, culture, and customs 100% even if they are fluent in the language and have lived there for more than 10 years. It is just not expected of them; never has, and probably never will be. Even though they desire it and demand the respect accorded any Japanese for following their customs and learning the language, it will never happen and this tends to frustrate the hell out of many a long-term foreigner where they come to despise the country they have called home and haved decided to reside in for who knows how long.
As was mentioned above, even long-term foreigners can always play the "gaijin card" and they will be forgiven because, after all, they are foreign. Once a foreigner understands that they will never be accepted and learns to live with it, only then may they enjoy the fruits of living in Japan as a foreigner, especially if one is fluent.
A Japanese on the other hand has no card to play and must do what is expected of any Japanese whether they like it or not. Is it not "Jersey Boy" who, being Japanese, but lived in America so long that he feels American, is now having trouble coping with the customs and traditions of Japan now that he has moved back? So much so that he is even wondering whether he needs a pre-nup before getting married.
I respectively disagree as I know more than a few Japanese who wish they never had to do the "gaman", "honne" and "tatamae" thing, but do it only because it is expected of them even though it frustrates the hell out of them especially if they have lived in the states for a considerable amount of time. Just because they HAVE to follow them, it does NOT make life any more easier for them. In fact, the opposite seems to be more the truth even for those few (that I know) that have never been to a foreign country, but are a little more cultured on life outside of Japan than their fellow countrymen/women.
Personally, as I've said before, even though I may be fluent in the language and culture and have lived there for many years, I can play the game and have, but I like being a foreigner where it is not expected of me to understand all there is to know of Japanese culture and I can act on it if I choose to.
It's comforting, in a strange way, knowing I have that option since I already know, and understand, that I will not be accepted, nor do I want/desire to and, I also know it will not be expected of me outside of my closest friends and relatives. With them I do play the game because it is expected of me.
Either way, IMO, it is much easier to live in Japan as a foreigner if one can overcome the fact that they will never be considered a Japanese person even if they have become a citizen. Round eyes will never equate to Japanese for the Japanese even if they were born there and lived no where else!
I think you're being a little obtuse here. We all know that a re-entry permit is valid for a number of years. But it's perfectly possible for an absent-minded person who's got used to the 'security' of PR to leave the country a few days/weeks before the their RP expires, and then find themselves bumped down to 'vistor' status when they next present themselves at Immigration. Bottom line, your PR visa is not 'permanent' and can be revoked.