Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die

[centrajapan]

You people seem to still be missing the bigger picture.

In USA. Citizens have no right to privacy in constitution, though search and seizure protections exist in 4th Amendment; case law on government searches has considered new technology

Recent news regarding FBI biometric database raises particular concerns as this could lead to the largest database of biometrics around the world that is not protected by strong privacy law

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

In Japan.

No explicit right to privacy in constitution though Supreme Court has interpreted a substantial right as falling under Article 13 on right to life an liberty

No comprehensive privacy law, instead only guidelines for specific industries; and some legislation in some sectors.

Surveillance cameras continue to spread despite constitutional issue.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

The right to privacy is being abused by governments. Thats the issue. Thats the biggest issue! While the countries which demand personal info does not have safe guards to protect that vital info while surveillence is increasing.

I am afraid the personal info can be manipulated or lost.

 

[pipokun]

WRONG! If a foreigner refuses to give their fingerprints, they will be arrested and will have their fingerprints taken by force, and then deported (and consequently barred from Japan for 10 years.)
This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice.

WRONG. It is simple that you cannot enter Japan when you refuse the fingreprint. This is exactly the same as in the US and UK.
About the UK, this is applied to the visa applicants.

I do not know much about your country's case, the UK, but in term of the US, it is quite interesting for me to read some threads, "HELP! I have a criminal record(s), but I want to go to America", somewhere like 2ch.

Again, I humbly ask you if the Japanese embassy requested of you to submit the criminial record like most European countries and the US or not.

 

[centrajapan]

Good arguments!

The right to privacy is recognized specifically by numerous international human rights treaties. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights recognises the right to privacy under Article 12. Similar language is adopted in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights under Article 17, the United Nations (UN) Convention on Migrant Workers in Article 14, and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child under Article 16. We note that the Japanese Supreme Court has recognized the right to privacy under Article 13 of the Japanese Constitution.

Japan's privacy laws are regarded as weak by international standards. We note that Japan has to some extent applied international standards such as the OECD's Privacy Guidelines into two recent privacy laws. This decreases our confidence that your government has the necessary accountability structures to collect such vast amounts of personal information.



http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-558619&als[theme]=Border%20and%20Travel%20Surveillance

USA is rated as the worst country to visit due to this policy. I am glad Japan is following in the same foot steps. Hopefully Japan will knock US off the 1st spot soon. Japan can then boast by saying that they are indeed number one.

How can Japan secure its borders without violating human rights?

Border officials could verify passports against the INTERPOL list of lost and stolen passports from around the world.

Privacy International

USA is at the bottom of freedom to privacy and Japan is next to the bottom and will soon be at the same level as USA. UK too is terrible.

All three countries are not very good at protecting vital personal information yet demand personal information. Common sense says that this is not right and fair.

I advise people to cut their fingers in protest and give it the immigration officer. Sooner or later the immigration will not have any place to store all the fingers so they will have to give up this policy. There are 2 million foreigners. Thats 2 million fingers. Plus a few more million tourists. Or if anyone have any Yakuza friends. Ask them for their fingers.

You want my finger? Here. Ill show you finger. Here is an another one. Want more? Maybe a bit dramatic but in dramatic situations we need to be dramatic.

 

[Taiko666]

WRONG. It is simple that you cannot enter Japan when you refuse the fingreprint. This is exactly the same as in the US and UK.

The point is: if you refuse to give your prints in Japan you will be arrested and have your prints taken by force. In the USA you will just be sent home. Can't you see the difference?

As for the UK, yes you have to submit fingerprints to get a visa. But from next year, UK citizens will also need to submit fingerprints to get a passport. So no anti-foreigner discimination there. (Visa-waiver travellers to the UK need not give any prints at all.)

Again, I humbly ask you if the Japanese embassy requested of you to submit the criminial record like most European countries and the US or not.

Sorry, the answer is yes, I was asked for details of any criminal record I might have. And I was asked again when I applied to extend my visa.

 

[Glenski]

Actually, if you refuse to submit your fingerprints, here is what the Ministry of Justice says will happen:

Your immigration control officer will carefully examine your case, to determine whether or not you fall into one of the exempt categories. If, despite it having been determined that you do not fall into any exempt category, you refuse to submit personally identifying information, you will denied entry to Japan and ordered to leave. http://www.moj.go.jp/NYUKAN/nyukan64-2-1.pdf (FAQs from the following site):
New Immigration Procedures

No mention made of anyone being arrested.

The Mainichi Shinbun on Nov. 21 wrote that:
According to the Mainichi today, the Justice Ministry has now issued a "tsuuchi" directive (the GOJ Mandarins' way of minting laws without going through a legislative body) granting Immigration more powers. People who refuse to get fingerprinted will not only be refused at the border, but also forced to have fingerprints taken. as well as a physical inspection and incarceration in the airport Gaijin Tank.
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20071121-00000017-mai-soci&kz=soci
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071121p2a00m0na033000c.html

Read the comments at this blog which describes the whole thing. Mainichi: MOJ will force NJ refusers to be incarcerated, fingerprinted | debito.org
Pay close attention to the information cited by commentors 11, 14, and 15.

 

[Taiko666]

Fair enough! I try to keep track of the comments on Debito's site in future...

 

[pipokun]

The point is: if you refuse to give your prints in Japan you will be arrested and have your prints taken by force. In the USA you will just be sent home. Can't you see the difference?
As for the UK, yes you have to submit fingerprints to get a visa. But from next year, UK citizens will also need to submit fingerprints to get a passport. So no anti-foreigner discimination there. (Visa-waiver travellers to the UK need not give any prints at all.)

Arrested? By force? Who?
Your entry is just refused.
I've never heard of any cases, but some people without fingerprints could luckily enter Japan with the former immigration procedures.
They were really lucky, but I am not sure if they would be lucky if they go to the US or UK.

What will happen if I refuse to have my fingers scanned or my photograph taken?
We will not accept your visa application. We will only accept and process this when you have provided your completed application form (with supporting documents), the visa fee, your finger scans and a digital photo.
http://www.vfs-uk-jp.com/biometrics.aspx

Sorry, the answer is yes, I was asked for details of any criminal record I might have. And I was asked again when I applied to extend my visa.

So you did not submit any documents, right?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I just came back from Korea, and accordingly I had to go through this process on the way back into Japan.

It was completely painless and very quick, too. The only thing I didn't enjoy was standing in the long line of foreigners when up until now I'd always been able to enjoy the short lines that Japanese nationals use.

There was a sign, by the way, saying that if for any reason you are unable to provide your fingerprints, you should contact the staff there. I don't know what would happen, but I assume that if you physically are unable to offer your fingerprints, there is some kind of allowance made for you. If you are physically able but unwilling to provide your fingerprints, I wouldn't be surprised if you were denied entry.

I guess you have to decide (before coming to or leaving Japan) what is more important to you.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

I guess you have to decide (before coming to or leaving Japan) what is more important to you.

I would say most, if not all that travel all the way in spending all that money would not refuse to offer their personal fingerprints for the sake of peace.

I do however still think is is a little off for first impression of a country, not to mention human rights, Japan even more so with it's not so famous history!

 

[Taiko666]

Arrested? By force? Who?
Your entry is just refused.

Just quoting the Mainichi. Perhaps you should ask them for sources. Anyway, Glenski has kindly clarified that issue.

So you did not submit any documents, right?

No. And if you were to apply for a UK visa, you wouldn't need to supply documents either. You'd just have to answer the same sort of question (see Sect 5.8 of the application form)

I don't know about the US system, and I don't really care. Anyway, why are you asking this question?

 

[Taiko666]

It was completely painless and very quick, too.

I wasn't expecting it to hurt, at least not physically

And when I came back home to Japan (a concept the Immigration Dept doesn't seem to understand, since I'm still referred to as a visitor), the re-entry permit holders' queue was significantly shorter than the Japanese citizens' queue. The tourists/visitors queue was horrendous, filling all the available queuing space. I think a flight from China had just arrived.

BTW the welcome provision of a re-entry permit holders' line was as a direct result of lobbying by activists and foreign (but not American...) business groups. So there is an alternative to simply 'putting up with it.'

None of this affects my view that the policy is wrong and discriminatory.

 

[Glenski]

BTW the welcome provision of a re-entry permit holders' line was as a direct result of lobbying by activists and foreign (but not American...) business groups.

And, just how do you know that American business groups were not involved?

 

[Taiko666]

And, just how do you know that American business groups were not involved?

Ok I take it back...

Initially the biggest noise was made by the Europeans and Aussies, but then the American Chamber of Commerce came onboard.

I guess I'm letting my irritation with the US Gov for pushing this fingerprinting stuff cloud my judgment.

I'll try to tone my posts in such a way that don't convey a distaste for the USA (I reserve the right to bash Bush though )

 

[Glenski]

You can express any liking or disliking all you want, Taiko. My only qualm is in presenting accurate information.

So, what did you mean by the US Gov pushing this fingerprinting stuff? In Japan?

 

[Taiko666]

You can express any liking or disliking all you want, Taiko. My only qualm is in presenting accurate information.
So, what did you mean by the US Gov pushing this fingerprinting stuff? In Japan?

I mean: creating this 'war-on-terror' rubbish, then creating its distasteful US-VISIT programme, and then...

it's my sincere belief that, after initiating US-VISIT, the US-Gov leaned on its allies to follow suite. As for evidence- it's circumstantial:
Accenture's dodgy bid, US-VISIT / JAPAN-VISIT data-sharing, Japan's history of apeing the USA, articles like this, the opinion of several of my Japanese friends etc.

But I'd like to avoid a 'show me the evidence' type discussion, such as you had with Pachipro. I'm happy to rely on my inferences in this case.

(If nobody ever relied on inferences, they'd be no use for the word 'belief'.)

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I wasn't expecting it to hurt, at least not physically
And when I came back home to Japan
BTW the welcome provision of a re-entry permit holders' line was as a direct result of lobbying by activists and foreign (but not American...) business groups. So there is an alternative to simply 'putting up with it.'
None of this affects my view that the policy is wrong and discriminatory.

Wait a minute.....

Maybe it's just because I was aboard a fairly small plane, but I don't recall seeing a re-entry permit holders' line! (Incidentally, I use Centrair Int'l Airport.) I wonder if they only open it up on busy days....

 

[pipokun]

Just quoting the Mainichi. Perhaps you should ask them for sources. Anyway, Glenski has kindly clarified that issue.
...

If the person denied refuses to comply with the deportation order, Immigration will impliment forceable deportation orders and render the person to a holding cell within the airport. Whether or not fingerprints will be taken during incarceration had until now not been made clear.
Fingerprinting, Targeting, Tracking NJ | Page 2 | debito.org

Unfortunately, the original link is dead. Tell your friend that he should quote some parts of the original source, and hopefully he should stand up for the Japanese tourist for the US fingerprint, but so for I've never heard of any Japanese activists refusing it at the US airport.

But it seems to me...
1. The person who refuses the fingerprint just gets the deportation order
2. However, he/she does not listen to the order.
3. Just follow the order and leave the country, if you do not want to be in the cell.
4. Japan is not the not-law-abiding-by-person friendly country.

 

[Glenski]

I think we should distinguish between deportation and just being refused entry. Two different animals.

 

[pipokun]

I think we should distinguish between deportation and just being refused entry. Two different animals.

True, but the Taiko666 or debtito's example is an isolated example. It is not the simple illegal or undocumented immigration issue.

If you refuse the fingerprint, the immigration does not allow you to enter Japan. And this is the same as other countries.
If you still loudly stay there, the immigration give you the order to deport you.
If you still keep loud, it may be possible to go to the cell.

 

[Glenski]

What "debtito's example" are you talking about in terms of "isolated"? If you mean Debito Arudou and his human rights blog, then looking even in a general way will show lots of examples, not just one.

 

[happilyengaged]

at least the Japanese are polite about it. The Americans are terrifying. I swear I thought they were about to beat up my fiance and about 30 other people, and myself as I stood off to the side waiting. Such jerks... then they just toss your passport down and ignore you...the Japanese have the courtesy of being apologetic about the fingerprinting, bowing and handing you all of your materials like you are a human...so...I say let them discriminate

 

[Glenski]

What does politeness have to do with it? The stupid policy is still stupid even if they took your fingerprints while serving tea and crumpets and giving you a foot massage.

"Let them discriminate"???!!!! You definitely don't sound like someone who lives here.

 

[happilyengaged]

well, my comment was not intended to be taken quite so literally. Though the treatment when arriving to various countries is something worth noting to me. I would suffer through the Japanese system...but if I were a foreigner treatment at the airport would be enough to push me away from America...but, back to the topic

If they did offer a foot massage I would be more than happy to pay for it and entrance to the country via my fingerprints. After all it is their country I am trying to enter. A foot massage would be quite generous.

Lastly, if anyone ever hurts my fiance or her family and they had enough information to determine who the criminal was based on both their already established home intel and their visitor intel...well...then I would have to say "Job well done. Thanks for the crumpets and foot massage, glad to help catch him."

 

[pipokun]

I do not know if it is a stupid policy, but it seems to me that many countries want to be stupid. (don't worry that I don't have the stupid idea "democracy, EU, the US, or what/whoever is the best")
When everybody is stupid, no stupid is there.

It is rather difficult to judge the stupidity, but the fairness and transparency on the procedures would be easier.
I think it is extremely unfair that some 2nd, 3rd or younger special permanent resident, zainichi, status holders have different treatments to other non-Japanese residents.

yokoso_tee yokoso_tee is offline
Junior Member
Last Activity: Dec 5, 2007 22:56

Again, this is the reality. To keep posting here is a way that you can be alive.

 

[akita]

My guess is that the Japaneses didn't even wanted such a policy but the American lobby done its job again. In the international politics it seams Japan tend to fallow more or less American ideas witch is not necessary good.

The whole thing with fingerprinting started in USA and it seams to me that became more an more crazy. It so easy to manipulate people telling them is for your own safety that we do that. Today is for your own safety to take you fingerprints, tomorrow maybe we will check with whom you speak, then what you write , where you send mails, then we will check you house while you are at work etc. I heard there will be in Europe a measure that will force the telecommunication company to stock for 6 month the conversations.
On the other hand there was a case in Great Britain that a company lost her clients private data.

Now I came from a country that has a huge percent of people good with computes at a very high level. Unfortunately we have also a bad record of cracking almost anything(there are some other countries also). So my question is how hard is for a person with bad intentions to use my personal data in whatever malicious purpose. Knowing that a young 23 year old man compromise about 150 NASA servers I guess is not that hard.

It is naive to believe that can stop terrorism. A man that really wants to dye for a cause without having the normal dead fears,has a very big chance to succeed no matter how many weird safety measures you take.
I hope nobody will be offended is just a critic to a certain measure not a country or system.