Comfort Women What do you think?

[Mars Man]

Question for you sir, how then can I or others for that matter ask if their, the comfort women's, stories are believable or not to other members.

In turn, a good question; yes. I'd tend to think that asking in a manner that would allow for shades of possibilities would be the way to go.

However for myself anyway, just asking whether someone believes them or not really has nothing to do with verification does it?

Yes, I agree with that, and for that very reason, would follow by adding that for that very reason, a person's statement of belief or non-belief is a matter of information. To that degree, then, hearing ones belief would be information gathering alone. For that reason, in all due respect, I feel it'd be best to let what has been said, be there on the record much more so than being seen as a point in an ongoing argument; something that must be drawn up again (and again).

 

[Davey]

I just found this article today, maybe an interesting read for some of you:

GIs frequented Japan's 'comfort women'
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/interna.../1177529059277730.xml&storylist=international

 

[KirinMan]

In turn, a good question; yes. I'd tend to think that asking in a manner that would allow for shades of possibilities would be the way to go.
Yes, I agree with that, and for that very reason, would follow by adding that for that very reason, a person's statement of belief or non-belief is a matter of information. To that degree, then, hearing ones belief would be information gathering alone. For that reason, I in all due respect, feel it'd be best to let what has been said, be there on the record much more so than being seen as a point in an ongoing argument; something that must be drawn up again (and again).

I would also like to add here in all respect to those that have posted their thoughtful replies so far, I admit that I asked the question in question here originally pretty much in the heat of the argument and also out of respect to the one woman's story that I personally heard.

For the record here, I won't be asking that question again. However I add this, if anyone would like to reply to it and give their thoughts and opinions regarding the "why", I am willing to listen.

Thank you for your thoughful opinion and advice here, much appreciated.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

This one from Mikawa-Ossan, with regards to this reply I am interested in hearing why he wrote that it can not be answered with a simple yes or no.
I hope he stops by and reads this as well, and maybe we can get an idea into why he feels the way he does.

Mars Man is quite perceptive!

I think that some of them are indeed lying. I think that others may believe their stories, but for one reason or another, they are not 'true' (in other words there may be some misrepresentation of what actually happened). I think that there are some other women who are indeed telling the truth without any misrepresentations. I don't pretend to know the corresponding percentages, but I have known far too many people to believe that it's a simple 0% / 0% / 100%.

Therefore if I were posited with the question, I simply could not answer it with a yes or no because my true opinion is neither.

 

[Davey]

Another related article:

Abe apologizes to U.S. Congressional leaders over 'comfort women'
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070427p2a00m0na009000c.html

 

[KirinMan]

Another related article:

Abe apologizes to U.S. Congressional leaders over 'comfort women'
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070427p2a00m0na009000c.html

Dutch thanks for posting these articles. To me anyway Abe is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue. He doesn't want to p'off his conservatitive backers in his own party, particularly before the upcoming elections in July and he doesn't want this issue to interfere with Japan's largest trading partner and the country guarunteeing his country's defense.

 

[pipokun]

...
This is a better point you bring up, but you must remember, the real size of the problem was not known until much later
...

You should say that the issue was just politicised until much later.
But then, the Korean government had still hid the info which Japan even suggested she should pay the indivisual compensation during the normalisation talk and I think Japan did not say "everything was settled" back then, for the democracy in South Korea had been unstabled in 80'.

 

[KirinMan]

You should say that the issue was just politicised until much later.

Actually I agree with gaijinalways that the issue itself was not brought to light until much later.

But then, the Korean government had still hid the info which Japan even suggested she should pay the indivisual compensation during the normalisation talk and I think Japan did not say "everything was settled" back then, for the democracy in South Korea had been unstabled in 80'.

Which as you know has absolutely nothing to do with whether Japan owes these women compensation or an apology.

 

[pipokun]

...
Which as you know has absolutely nothing to do with whether Japan owes these women compensation or an apology.

Why?
Japan have already paid the compansation to Korea more than 40 years ago.

At the recent press conference, probably you watched it, the adovocates repeatedly announced they were doing their activity in East Timor.
They would be glad if Korea would separeted into millions of countries.

 

[KirinMan]

Why?
Japan have already paid the compansation to Korea more than 40 years ago.

To borrow Mike Cash's image here, Pipokun you have brought this up numerous times before, in many different forms but really it is getting to be like;

 

[pipokun]

Just look at South Korea now. They are hunting witches who supported Japan before the end of WWII. And I heard the offsprings are also categorised into them.
I understand their feeling that they had been ruled by dictators for years, though.

 

[gaijinalways]

Pipokun, look at the difference with Germany and Switzerland. Companies in both countries paid even when they had no legal basis to do so, with some of them initially trying the same oft used Japanese line that 'we already signed an accord that doesn't allow for compensation to be paid to individuals'. Pressure eventually convinced them it ws better to pay to people who were used as slave labor and had property illegally taken. The government in some cases paid as well (1/2 in Germany)

Also, I am still not clear on why the 'all' in the comfort women question makes it difficult to answer. Perhaps it is a problem reading it coming from a Japanese perspective. Of course one can say, no, they are not all liars, but many of them are, etc..

I can't say that all their stories are true, but again are they all liars? Why would so many of them make up such a story? I think it is much more than what another right winger proclaimed it to be, women looking for more wages. If it was only that, then why did so many women turn down money from the unofficial fund offering them it?

Yet Dicek and pipokun and others didn't answer this at all, just talked about what had been paid or signed or making some primarily irrelevant comparisons. Only Mikawa attempted, but didn't seem to answer, to my mind. Again, Mikawa, it's not a yes or no we're seeking, we're just asking if you believe if any of them told the truth?

Nothing is all or nothing, but certainly since I believe some/many of the women were raped, you would think why whitewash it, why would the government try to delete it from the textbooks unless one is ashamed to admit it at all, to admit even the possibility of it happening.

As to the comparison with the US servicemen girls, it seems quite different as they were all paid, and at least as stated in the article, were making quite good money for that time in war-torn Japan. In addition, the Japanese idea was to protect the other women, an idea that still exists in some forms in Japan (sometimes expanded to all Japanese).

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Two articles that may be of interest.
Coercion seen in brothels for Occupation
ﾋ?藩??窶｢wﾅ?ﾃ懌?堙樞?伉ｼ窶堙個静ｭﾅ津｣窶｢ﾃ｢ﾂ焦ｾ窶售窶亙ﾂ湘冷?堙?窶捏窶亙ﾅ?m窶凖ｨ

I disagree with your assessment of Pipokun's argument that Japan has already compensated the victims of any past wrong.

You are arguing from a moral standpoint. Pipokun is arguing more from a legal standpoint.

Morally, the practice of coerced comfort women was bad.

Legally, Japan has settled with both China (the second article alludes to this, even though it's only in Japanese) and S. Korea when they normalized relations, and they are not longer liable for further damages.

You can argue the morality of the situation until you're blue in the face, but the (legal status) horse will still continue to live.

Yet Dicek and pipokun and others didn't answer this at all, just talked about what had been paid or signed or making some primarily irrelevant comparisons. Only Mikawa attempted, but didn't seem to answer, to my mind. Again, Mikawa, it's not a yes or no we're seeking, we're just asking if you believe if any of them told the truth?

Actually, I thought it was evident that I thought that yes, I do think that some of them told the truth. I just don't know how many of them are doing so.

As to whether Japan compensates the victims even though there is no legal necessity for them to do so, that is up to the Japanese government to decide. Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions. (And here I am referring to their present actions of whether they further compensate past comfort women or not.)

 

[KirinMan]

Morally, the practice of coerced comfort women was bad.

Legally, Japan has settled with both China (the second article alludes to this, even though it's only in Japanese) and S. Korea when they normalized relations, and they are not longer liable for further damages.

You can argue the morality of the situation until you're blue in the face, but the (legal status) horse will still continue to live.

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.

The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.
The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.

Well, remember when I said:

Forced laborers are separate issue from the comfort women, however, unless comfort women are included among "forced laborers".

?

I am not unsympathetic to your point. However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue. Since the issue of compensation for forced laborers has been legally settled, it means that if comfort women are included in that category, their compensation has also been legally settled.

 

[KirinMan]

I am not unsympathetic to your point. However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue. Since the issue of compensation for forced laborers has been legally settled, it means that if comfort women are included in that category, their compensation has also been legally settled.

Ok, for arguments sake here, let's put aside the issue of the Korean Comfort Women, how then how should the rest of the "comfort women" and their claims against Japan be decided?

The current argument or discussion seems to center upon the Korean women alone. While they consitute the majority of the women making claims against Japan there are numerous others that have claims as well.

Are they also covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea for it's "misdeeds" per say from WWII?

However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue

That's a good point, I can honestly say I do not know the answer to that.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Ok, for arguments sake here, let's put aside the issue of the Korean Comfort Women, how then how should the rest of the "comfort women" and their claims against Japan be decided?
The current argument or discussion seems to center upon the Korean women alone. While they consitute the majority of the women making claims against Japan there are numerous others that have claims as well.
Are they also covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea for it's "misdeeds" per say from WWII?

Obviously, it becomes a country by country basis.
In the second article that I gave a link to before (the one only in Japanese), several cases of Chinese comfort women were rejected by the Japanese courts based on an agreement with China that seems to be similar to the one between Japan and S. Korea. Therefore, it seems that Chinese comfort women are in a similar situation to Korean ones. I don't know the situation with other countries, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are similar agreements there, too. It would be worth researching for anyone who is interested.

 

[pipokun]

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.
The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.

It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.

I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.
Yes, Germany did right things you may call, i.e. indivisual compensation, however, but look at frustraion esp. in the former East European nations about the right indivisual compensation.
I don't know which is better, indivisual compensation or comprehensive one like the Treaty of Peace with Japan.

I can say Japan should have forced Korea or China to offer indivisual compensation, considering their current hypocracy loudly saying, "we can forgive, but never forget". But I don't think the government should say loudly, "we compensated the countries".

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Here is the English version of the story I included a link to before.
Top court: No war redress for Chinese

Some more related stories:
Former sex slave joins call for Abe apology
East Timor former sex slaves start speaking out

 

[KirinMan]

It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.
I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.
Yes, Germany did right things you may call, i.e. indivisual compensation, however, but look at frustraion esp. in the former East European nations about the right indivisual compensation.
I don't know which is better, indivisual compensation or comprehensive one like the Treaty of Peace with Japan.
I can say Japan should have forced Korea or China to offer indivisual compensation, considering their current hypocracy loudly saying, "we can forgive, but never forget". But I don't think the government should say loudly, "we compensated the countries".

I'll have a response for you tomorrow, tonight I am going to enjoy a few well deserved, what I like to call, tansanyo mugi cha, 窶兀ﾅｽ_窶堙ｦ窶敘ｾ窶卮? and get some well deserved sleep. to me

Mikawa-san thanks for the links I heard about the Chinese verdict on the news, and wasn't really surprised by the verdict.

I really don't think Japan is legally liable to pay any compensation, mostly because of statute of limitations on claims. However I personally think they morally and ethically should at least do something monetarily, like I responded to Pipokun's question on post

Post 204 and Post 205 here on this thread.

 

[gaijinalways]

Mikawa, perhaps I wasn't clear enough; remember when you said thank you to Marsman? You stated you earlier were having a hard time answering the question because of the word 'all'. But as I stated, I don't see where the addition of 'all' makes any differance in answering the question.

As to whether Japan compensates the victims even though there is no legal necessity for them to do so, that is up to the Japanese government to decide. Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions. (And here I am referring to their present actions of whether they further compensate past comfort women or not.)

Please reread my previous comments. Obviously Germany and Switzerland also didn't have any legal necessity to do so either, but they did it. Hence, you don't see people complaining about what they did and the appearance of their apologies has more force. Contrast this with Japan where they keep trying to remove references to what the Japanese consider behavour that downgrades the image of what Japanese like to think of as their pure and honorable image. In addition, in Austria people dismissing the Holocaust (another deplorable part of WWII history) can be fined and jailed as was David Irving, but in Japan these people can become Prime Minister!

Remember; 'Those that can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (Santayana)

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Mikawa, perhaps I wasn't clear enough; remember when you said thank you to Marsman? You stated you earlier were having a hard time answering the question because of the word 'all'. But as I stated, I don't see where the addition of 'all' makes any differance in answering the question.

I guess we just disagree here. I don't think that 'all' of them are accurately depicting the past. But that'S not to say that I think 'all' of them are lying, either. The question itself wasn't very nuanced, and I was just taking it at face value.

Please reread my previous comments. Obviously Germany and Switzerland also didn't have any legal necessity to do so either, but they did it. Hence, you don't see people complaining about what they did and the appearance of their apologies has more force. Contrast this with Japan where they keep trying to remove references to what the Japanese consider behavour that downgrades the image of what Japanese like to think of as their pure and honorable image. In addition, in Austria people dismissing the Holocaust (another deplorable part of WWII history) can be fined and jailed as was David Irving, but in Japan these people can become Prime Minister!
Remember; 'Those that can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (Santayana)

Here we don't actually disagree to the extent that any accusations are in fact, true. That's why I said this earlier:

Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions.

 

[hanachan]

Post 204 and Post 205 here on this thread.

I thought that when those were posted, this thread died.
This thread is going for the only one Obeika prepared.

This is from PBS "Foreign Exchange".
In a interview with Mr. Zakaria, Komori san speaks for my feelings.

Thanks, bye.

 

[KirinMan]

It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.
I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.

As you know the situations were different, Germany has not worked towards rewriting it's history with regards to it's actions during WWII. That is probably another topic altogether.

In my opinion the Comfort Women issue is just one part of a larger issue of the current Japanese Administration's efforts at erasing a large part of it's war history.

Even in the link to the interview Interview with Yoshihisa Komori provided by hanachan on the previous post here, towards the very end of the interview he is asked what Japan must do get out of this situation, and his reply is that "More and more people (Japanese) need to speak out in dialogue, discussion or debate......"

I hope people here remember though that the Sankei Shimbun is openly recognized as having "Its editorial view is generally nationalist, anti-communist, conservative, and pro-United States."

Sankei_Shimbun

Personally I think he neatly side-stepped the question and gave no concrete ideas or thoughts on how this situation can be rectified.

To me that means more confrontation and disagreement particularly from China and S.Korea.

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Obeika-san.
I understood your opinion enough.
In a court of law of your country,
If you appealed for this crime, how will be it.
Or please appeal to the International Court of Justice if your opinion is right.
Because a court of law is facilities of that purpose.
Surely you will win.
Probably.