Comfort Women What do you think?

[pipokun]

Tell me, obeika, why only (some) Koreans did not take the compensation from Japan.

 

[KirinMan]

Off topic comment here in regards to this thread...

First off I would like to compliment and personally thank all those that have voiced their opinions, thoughts and feelings about this highly charged, emotional, and divisive subject. I started this thread with the intent of mainly wanting people to vote on what their opinion was regarding this topic.

Over the course of one month, over 4,000 people have viewed this thread, and over 200 replies, yes a large percentage of them mine, were made here as well.

Many of the people replying here, including myself, have very different and sometimes emotionally charged opinions. This thread was also locked for a couple of days to allow "us" to cool off and take a step back and re-think the direction of the discussion.

Many sincere thanks to the Mod's, Advisor's and Admin here for not locking the thread and allowing it to continue. It would have been very easy to do otherwise.

What has happened, in my humble opinion, is that many people that are
reading and following this thread, whether intentional or not, are educating themselves about the topic at hand.

I also include myself in this.

Many of my thoughts and opinions on this subject have not changed, but I have rethought numerous times over the course of the past month what I personally would like to see as a viable solution to this serious international topic.

I also have been forced to consider the compensation portion of this issue as well. I must admit that I am not so sure that compensation, monetary compensation that is, is an answer to or solution to the problem.

I would hope that from now on those that are only viewing the subject would join the discussion and make their opinions, thoughts or feelings known as well. Whether or not you are in agreement with the women in question or if you are against them as well.

Please take the time to jump off the fence and join the fray.​

Once again thank you all for "participating" and helping me for one learn more about my adopted country and how some people think about it's history.

Now back to the topic at hand........

 

[KirinMan]

Tell me, obeika, why only (some) Koreans did not take the compensation from Japan.

I think I answered this earlier here, and I can only speculate as well. In my opinion it is because the fund, the Asian Women's Fund, that was set up with the express intent of compensating these women was not an "official" government agency.

The women refused the compensation because their intent was to have the government of Japan acknowledge their pain and suffering and not be paid off or bribed off, by some quasi-official, but highly ambigious, organization that did not directly connect to the Japanese government itself.

The Japanese government, through this organization could stay out of the culpability issues that would have arisen if it officially sanctioned and officially funded this organization.

That again is my opinion about the reasons the women did not accept the compensation. Plus with their advanced ages, many want the satisfaction that the government of Japan admitted it's part in this atrocity, and are not looking for any money in the first place.

Thank you for asking this question.

 

[Han Chan]

What has happened, in my humble opinion, is that many people that are
reading and following this thread, whether intentional or not, are educating themselves about the topic at hand.
I also include myself in this.

I must also confess that I have learned quite a bit. I was impressed to find so many documents in the Ministry of Forign Affairs homepage where the wrong of the past are actually acknowledged. Specially I was positively surprised to learn that former PM Koizumi actually wrote at letter to the former comfort women where he expressed his "most sincere apologies and remorse".

Link to MOFA: http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/index.html

I find that this resent discussion about the issue started when FM Aso claimed that evidence was lacking. Later PM Abe repeated this stance. Most lately Abe had to reverse his stance.

To my mind the main problem is that Aso, whose family became rich using forced labourers, became FM. Untill Japan gets a new FM there are going to be distrust toward Japan from its neighbours.

 

[hanachan]

To my mind the main problem is that Aso, whose family became rich using forced labourers, became FM. Untill Japan gets a new FM there are going to be distrust toward Japan from its neighbours.

However, Aso is our Minister of Foreign Affairs. You don't need to worry about it. It's none of your business.

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Strangely, they received a salary in those days though it was a compulsion worker.

 

[Han Chan]

However, Aso is our Minister of Foreign Affairs. You don't need to worry about it. It's none of your business.

As this is not a "japanese citizens only" forum, I think I am perfectly entitled to express my opinion.

I am also neither citizen of USA or Iran, but I feel that I have the right to say that I dislike both Bush and Ahmadinejad.

I am not japanese, but half of my family are. Actually I love Japan and japanese people, therefore I am concerned with Japans relations with the outside world. Actually the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the ministry which deals with the rest of the world, therefore it is expected that the FM should be somewhat diplomatic.

So I'll continue to worry!

 

[diceke]

Which applies to the "Comfort Women" case as evidence that the Japanese government once held at one time was destroyed. As this has been pointed out before.

hmm, not sure if you are understanding what you are quoting.

It basically means that if you have no proof that it happened, then it's reasonable to assume that it didn't happen. This presumption also applies in the legal systems as well. Otherwise, you can make anyone guilty of any crime.

From Wikipedia:

Law
In most modern criminal legal systems there is a presumption of innocence, and it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove (usually "beyond reasonable doubt") that a defendant has in fact committed a particular crime. It is a logical fallacy to presume that mere lack of evidence of innocence of a crime is instead evidence of guilt. Similarly, mere lack of evidence of guilt cannot be taken as evidence of innocence. And, by exactly the same reasoning, mere lack of evidence of guilt against any person in existence for every possible crime cannot be necessarily taken as evidence of innocence--though if this were the accepted standard it would lead towards the absurd scenario where everyone is presumed guilty and all would be required to continually prove their innocence in court. For this reason (among others), western legal systems err on the side of caution. Simply the act of taking a defendant before a court is not adequate evidence to presume anything. Courts require evidence of guilt to be presented first, adequate for the court to find that the charge has been substantiated-- i.e., that the prosecution's evidentiary burden has been met-- and only after this burden is met is the defense obliged to present counterevidence of innocence. If the burden of proof is not met, that does not imply that the defendant is innocent. Hence, in such a case, the defendant is found "not guilty".

Well, you always generalize and jump to the conclusion. You have to show that the kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan.

 

[Han Chan]

You have to show that kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan.

The japanese government has already accepted the guilt. Ministry of Forign Affairs: "Recognizing that the issue known as "wartime comfort women" was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of a large number of women, the Government of Japan, together with the people of Japan, seriously discussed what could be done for expressing their sincere apologies and remorse to the former "wartime comfort women.""

Koizumi wrote in 2001: "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women."

Hanachan, you actually also posted a interesting link to a recent interview with Abe.

The recent confusion is merely due to the fact that the present Foreign Minister Aso recently claimed that proof of guilt is lacking. Actually the previous LDP government accepted guilt. In a trail evidence is not needed when the accused accepts guilt. The case was closed. But Aso and a few right-wing nationalsts will not face this. They might think that they are defending the honour of Japan, but actually the are achieving the opposite!

 

[diceke]

The japanese government has allready accepted the guilt. Ministry of Forign Affairs: "Recognizing that the issue known as "wartime comfort women" was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of a large number of women, the Government of Japan, together with the people of Japan, seriously discussed what could be done for expressing their sincere apologies and remorse to the former "wartime comfort women.""
Koizumi wrote in 2001: "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women."
The recent confusion is merely due to the fact that the present Foreign Minister Aso recently claimed that proof of guilt is lacking. Actually the previous LDP government accepted guilt. In a trail evidence is not needed when the accused accepts guilt. The case was closed. But Aso and a few right-wing nationalsts will not face this. They might think that they are defending the honour of Japan, but actually the are achieving the opposite!

We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government.

I know the Japanese government has already apologized numerous times since 1990's. I think it's more like a diplomatic gesture than anything else.

 

[Han Chan]

We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government. I know the Japanese government has already apologized numerous times since 1990's.

OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".

 

[KirinMan]

OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".

Well said and I concurr wholeheartedly. Thank you

 

[diceke]

OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not.

Isn't it what this thread is about? If not, we can now close the thread. Thank you. ☝

 

[KirinMan]

diceke I would like to ask you what is your nationality?

I see that your place of residence is Taiwan but there is no listing for nationality, could you please update your profile.

I ask this to try to understand where you are coming from on this thread, it does help people posting here, myself included.

Thank you

 

[KirinMan]

Well, you always generalize and jump to the conclusion. You have to show that the kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan

Perhaps you missed this Diceke did you by chance read this from this link;

("JUGUN IANFU")

23. Under the jugun ianfu scheme, the government of Japan abducted or fraudulently induced the recruitment of women and girls from territories under Japanese occupation, transported them away from their homes, detained them in special facilities, and allowed its soldiers to repeatedly rape them. A significant number of women and girls were murdered outright or allowed to die of injuries or starvation. Most were beaten and grossly abused. Many were forced to watch other women and girls murdered, beaten or abused. Food and medical care for them was grossly inadequate. Their living conditions were atrocious. In sum, the jugun ianfu scheme represented the nadir of inhumanity.
24. In legal terms, victims of the jugun ianfu scheme, were murdered, deported, enslaved, imprisoned, tortured by rape and other forms of torture, and subjected to inhumane acts.

 

[KirinMan]

I would like to add some very sobering statistics given to the following;
UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS Fifty-first session Agenda item 11

I apologize to those that may find these statistics horrifying.

Japan has still not provided any compensation for its war-rape victims. As indicated by the rapporteur, as many as 200,000 girls and women were part of the Japanese programme of "comfort women" or jugun ianfu. Our research shows that more than 1/2 of the girls and women died as a direct result of the treatment they received. Many survivors were detained in the programme for 3 to 5 years. Most participants were raped 5 - 20 times a day.
Taking the lowest figures, at any given time, there were about 20,000 jugun ianfu. Each of them was raped at least 5 times per day. That means that there were at least 100,000 rapes per day arranged by the Japanese authorities and carried out by its soldiers -- 100,000 rapists per day. 100,000 times at least five days per week equals at least 500,000 rapes per week -- or 2 million per month -- or 24 million per year. Even assuming only 5 years of the programme, there were at least 125 million rapes -- 125 million rapes against the women of Korea, Philippines, Burma, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Netherlands.
Mr.Chairman, do you think a country should have to pay something for having committed as a minimum 125 million rapes -- maybe even twice that many. Japan has paid nothing to these victims.
Lets look at the statistics from the point of view of a single victim. At an average of 10 rapes per day (still a low figure), and a five day work week, each comfort girl was raped 50 times per week or 2,500 times per year. For three years of service -- the average -- a comfort girl was raped 7,500 times.
Mr. Chairman, how much compensation do you think ought to be paid to a woman who was raped 7,500 times

The numbers are incredibly ing!

The following link is a continuation of the link provided in my previous post.
Legal Opinion on JUGUN IANFU Part II

I would like to add one thing here, I don't believe that there are many, if any, men left in Japan today that committed any of these rapes.

I put this here to show both the incredilble numbers and the gravity of the claims that these women have against the Japanese Imperial Army, and the recognition that they seek from the current administration here in Japan.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Wen: China Highly Values Japan's Remorse for War

 

[pipokun]

The private fund stuff may be a hypocracy, but it was also a hypocracy that South Korea had not disclosed the secret diplomatic documents, had not compensated the victims then, and have agitated people "Japan has not done anything to us at all".

a woman who was raped 7,500 times

Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.
Just think why ultra-patriotic Koreans work as a hostess or a prostitute in other countries. It is sad for them, but it is for money.

 

[KirinMan]

Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.

I notice that you have often brought up the point that these women were paid quite a bit of money at the time.

I have begun to wonder just how many of the military people that used the brothel's were actually aware of how the women were appropriated to work there.

Not having grown up or experienced Japan at that time in history I don't know how the Japanese people felt about kidnapping or coersion but I would think that if they, the men using the brothel's, knew that the women working there were forced into service and not prostitutes would quite possibly feel guilty or some other similar emotion.

I wonder if because they thought or were told that these women were professional's that made it easier for them to relieve themselves and their consciences.

Do you feel that just because these women were getting paid for their services justifies the manner in which they were forced into this work?

 

[gaijinalways]

I've seen the same tired arguement on another forum where a moderate right-winger tried to argue that all the women were prostitutes. We're not argueing that all of them were forced, but that obviously a good number were, including some Japanese women. Obviously, the government destroyed most of the paper trail, but why else would so many women come forward and say that they were kidnapped or tricked into being comfort women.

Strangely enough, Japan is the only country that clings to this odd position, that there were brothels, that they were only filled by agents (since modified as the government has admitted now to doing some procurement), and that the women all 'volunteered'. In a sense only Japanese want to beleive that all these women who claimed to be raped are liars. I see similar paterns with unit 731 denials, and also with the so called (in Japan) Nanjing 'incident'. Why is only in Japan do you hear these arguements raised and sometimes seriously believed?

Obviously the Chinese and Koreans don't help their own cases by exaggerating and using as a political card WWII references, yet their cases have a much more logical appeal (not a moral one) than the Japanese arguement. What I often find in Japan is that the arguement becomes an emotional one, with all or nothing(all the women were prostitutes, all the unit 731 were death row prisoners..), yet I just see a lot of twisting on technical grounds (we already paid compensation, Japan had not signed the Geneva Convention) or attempts to evade the issue (American soldiers used Japanese brothels during the Korean war, etc.).

These kinds of things don't address the main issue; were the women raped or not? Obviously some Japanese soldiers have stated they were (interestingly, most of them believe it wasn't wrong as they were following orders from the Emperor) raping these women who were not allowed to leave or only under strict conditions without any travel documents (somehow this doesn't sound like regular employment to me ).

Lets just say Hiroshima and Nagasaski were never bombed, and Japan only wanted to help their Asian neighbors escape Western colonization (by subsituting Japanese occupation, much better ). Then we know we really live in a utopian, patriotic Japan.

Truth, what's that?

 

[pipokun]

...
Lets just say Hiroshima and Nagasaski were never bombed, and Japan only wanted to help their Asian neighbors escape Western colonization (by subsituting Japanese occupation, much better ). Then we know we really live in a utopian, patriotic Japan.
Truth, what's that?

Do you know how many times the Japanese asked for the reparation for the A-bomb or rapes by the US soldiers during the occupation?
- Never
I don't think the bomb is a super weapon which ends a war (this is because of country has used it).
But the Treaty of Peace with Japan is more important than the political game.
And look at the evidence Obeika claims. Everything is from the lawsuit which the plaintiff lost or crappy adovocate groups in the US, not Korea.

And don't forget that it was totally wrong, though I think she was wise, that the Korean government spent compensation from Japan for their economic growth and keep agitating "no compensation form Japan".

 

[gaijinalways]

Do you know how many times the Japanese asked for the reparation for the A-bomb or rapes by the US soldiers during the occupation?

-

No, some Japanese citizens did attempt to bring a lawsuit, forgetting that Japan attacked Hawaii and was allied with the Germans in WWII. Not whether I am saying they should or not be compensated, just that Japan was not invaded in sense, and hence bombing almost always has victims.

As to rapes during the occupation, what does this have to do with my question?

Are you telling me all the comfort women who came forward were lieing (the 731 unit vicitms unfortunately can't say much since they are dead)?

And don't forget that it was totally wrong, though I think she was wise, that the Korean government spent compensation from Japan for their economic growth and keep agitating "no compensation form Japan".

This is a better point you bring up, but you must remember, the real size of the problem was not known until much later, and this still doesn't change the fact that they should be compensated and that the Japanese government also still waffles on this issue, and is only delayed from modifying (read whitewashing) their history books by outside foreign pressure. You are of course, familar with the Ienaga Saburo lawsuit as well? So even in japan there is some hope that the truth will come out, though the current LDP hopes to hide it until no one remembers anything but a patriotic Japan (one that doesn't question anything, in my mind).

 

[KirinMan]

gaijinalways wrote;

Are you telling me all the comfort women who came forward were lieing

Just to let you know, I've asked that question rather directly to a number of posters here and here a a couple of the replies,

This answer here was from diceke and while the others all side-stepped the issue. I at least credit him for being honest in why he could not reply, sarcasm aside.....

Yeah, you are quite simple-minded. It's all yes or no, right or wrong. I don't believe in dichotomy, the question is nonsense, that's why I didn't vote.
Ask yourself: Does an honest person always tell the truth? Does a liar tell a lie all the time?

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?
A simple yes or no will suffice....thank you.

Um...I agree that this question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.

This one from Mikawa-Ossan, with regards to this reply I am interested in hearing why he wrote that it can not be answered with a simple yes or no.

I hope he stops by and reads this as well, and maybe we can get an idea into why he feels the way he does.

 

[Mars Man]

I think it might be best not to pull already passed points up again, as it could be seeding the rain clouds...and that could mass into a storm.

Mikawa san will have to answer for himself; I agree with him. The reason I would agree with him is simply because we cannot absolutely verify each and every story by each and every person. The word all in the embedded part of the quote from him is what has caused that problem, I'd tend to think.

I hope no more need be said than that, and that if and when Mikawa san does come and answers that, that it can be set on the shelf as it is. AGAIN, it may (and I do emphasize 'may') cause problems to try to rehash old statements in this thread. Thanks for your listening heart and ears. MM

 

[KirinMan]

I think it might be best not to pull already passed points up again, as it could be seeding the rain clouds...and that could mass into a storm.
Mikawa san will have to answer for himself; I agree with him. The reason I would agree with him is simply because we cannot absolutely verify each and every story by each and every person. The word all in the embedded part of the quote from him is what has caused that problem, I'd tend to think.
I hope no more need be said than that, and that if and when Mikawa san does come and answers that, that it can be set on the shelf as it is. AGAIN, it may (and I do emphasize 'may') cause problems to try to rehash old statements in this thread. Thanks for your listening heart and ears. MM

MM, thank you for your honesty here in replying. Question for you sir, how then can I or others for that matter ask if their, the comfort women's, stories are believable or not to other members.

I agree that all their stories can not be verified, mostly because of the passage of time. However for myself anyway, just asking whether someone believes them or not really has nothing to do with verification does it?